Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[ViennaGirl]

Well, we're re-reading AGoT right now, so we won't be jumping to ASoS. Maybe re-post this on Heresy?

sorry

[Little Wing]

sorry

Oh, don't apologize! I just thought you'd get a quicker response on Heresy :)

[Mace Cooterian]

I think I am inclined to agree with Black Crow's suggestion that perhaps the reason why Summer howled when Bran climbed the tower was because there was a "fight" over him: the old gods versus the realm of death. The realm of death wanted him killed/pushed, but the old gods wanted him alive. This would actually support the Three-eyed crow being a separate entity than Bloodraven, and would suggest that the old gods/children of the forest are not on the same side as the White Walkers, who I believe are part of the realm of death....or the spirit world, if you would prefer to look at it that way.

@Feather Crystal.

I am certainly leaning after your post and that of BC about the struggle over Bran between the old gods and the realm of death (fairie). I did not make the connection however in how this supports the notion that the 3EC is a separate entity from Bloodraven. Could you elaborate?

[Melifeather]

@Feather Crystal.

I am certainly leaning after your post and that of BC about the struggle over Bran between the old gods and the realm of death (fairie). I did not make the connection however in how this supports the notion that the 3EC is a separate entity from Bloodraven. Could you elaborate?

First you have to understand that I am not a firm believer that the 3EC is a separate entity than Bloodraven. I was just exploring the "what if" he was. Because it doesn't make sense that Summer would be howling a warning to Bran if the direwolves were sent by the old gods and the old gods also wanted Bran to fall. You wouldn't warn about something that you wanted to happen, or something inevitable about to happen. However, if there were a fight for Bran where one side wants him to fall and the other side doesn't, who would the two sides be? If we go on the basis that there is a force from the realm of death calling...wanting Bran to fall and die, then quite possibly the 3EC is not Bloodraven....or maybe he is and he too is just trying to prevent Bran from dying. It just seems unnecessary that the old gods wanted Bran to fall in order to open his third eye, because Bloodraven didn't have to be deliberately crippled to lure him to the Children.

My brain is pretty tired from work today, so I may not be making any sense.

[Mace Cooterian]

For my simple mind I tend to classify Bran's push from the tower a matter of coincedence. He simply was in the right place at the wrong time. If he performs that same sequence of climbing 1,000 times; nothing happens. The fact that Jaime and Cersei were doing the dirty when Bran peeked in...coincedence=bad timing.

Like you said, I think it way too chancy to risk a fall from a high tower to open up a potential greenseer's third eye without killing him.

[Black Crow]

I agree that there's no way the accident was "arranged" in order to put him into a coma so that he could get a house call from the three-eyed crow. Far too much risk of a dead candidate. If greenseers are all they're cracked up to be its more likely that the fall was foreseen and that's why Summer was getting upset and trying to warn him.

It does however then raise the question that if the coma was unplanned, just how was it planned to awaken his potential?

The rather ruthless thought does occur to me while writing that this is perhaps the significance of the impaled dreamers; that the accident was arranged and that perhaps those dreamers were the ones who were killed rather than "just" put into a coma. A sort of oops, broken another one, well never mind, plenty more where that one came from.

[Melifeather]

I agree that there's no way the accident was "arranged" in order to put him into a coma so that he could get a house call from the three-eyed crow. Far too much risk of a dead candidate. If greenseers are all they're cracked up to be its more likely that the fall was foreseen and that's why Summer was getting upset and trying to warn him.

It does however then raise the question that if the coma was unplanned, just how was it planned to awaken his potential?

The rather ruthless thought does occur to me while writing that this is perhaps the significance of the impaled dreamers; that the accident was arranged and that perhaps those dreamers were the ones who were killed rather than "just" put into a coma. A sort of oops, broken another one, well never mind, plenty more where that one came from.

:lol:

Laughing at near death experiences...or laughing when people get hurt...guilty as charged!

I was going to post this thought on the Heresy thread, but it's probably more pertinent to the current discussion here. Mortal versus immortal. What is the difference and do other people here believe Bran is now immortal? Immortal is not the same as being dead, like I last posted. I had said you couldn't be alive to join the godhead, so therefore, Bran was dead. But, I believe that was an incorrect assumption. If it's necessary to drink from the green fountain whilst still mortal, wouldn't that then imply that the drinker would then become immortal? And if he is now immortal, what does that mean? Mortals can grow old and die, whereas immortals only die of fatal wounds otherwise they do not die at all. Does that mean that Bloodraven is actually not dying?

[nanother]

What do you mean by 'immortal'? In the sense that greenseers (and also regular CotF?) get to live their 'second life' in a weirwood tree, which is potentially immortal, yes. But their body will perish all the same - not like regular death, but as you see with BR: he's more a tree than a man now and I can't imagine his body can still be functioning with roots growing in and out of his skull so I'm assuming he's sustained by the tree.

Re: Brans fall - yes, it seems a pretty silly way to ensure you get a greenseer, nearly killing him... On the other hand, what is it about near death experiences and the 3EC? IIRC Jojen was also very ill and nearly died when the crow first came to him? We don't know if BR himself had anything like that happening to him, do we?

[Little Wing]

My own feeling about the climb is that it was Bran's decision, no influence outside his own, as I already said. The fall itself was not something the Old Gods made happen, but may have seen happening and just let things go their own way, without interfering. The 3EC, in my humble opinion, didn't visit Bran. Bran entered its realm, in between worlds when he had his near-death experience. So, let's say a near-death experience can bring you in touch with the 3EC. How this encounter goes and if anyone having a near-death experience gets to meet the crow, or is it important to have First Men blood, I don't know, but this is how I see it. :)

[nanother]

Oh, I agree that it was Bran's decision! But between Summer knowing that something wrong, BR watching (he admits as much later) and the fact that it all turned out really convenient for him, and everyone getting the impression that Summer is keeping him alive (it was certainly mentioned by Tyrion in the chapter we skipped), and this odd connection between near-death experiences and the 3EC, it's hard to decide what to think...

Regardless of who visited whom, Bran starts getting crow dreams (and Jojen green dreams) from that point on. Sounds a bit like a magical pact (or blackmail). Selling your soul to the devil Old Gods? Anyway, we'll get to the relevant chapter next week. I'll post the Jon and Tyrion chapters eventually, probably later today.

[Little Wing]

Sure, nanother. And if you don't have time to do a chapter or whatever, feel free to PM me and I can do it instead. You've been doing a bang up job so far! :thumbsup:

[Black Crow]

My own feeling about the climb is that it was Bran's decision, no influence outside his own, as I already said. The fall itself was not something the Old Gods made happen, but may have seen happening and just let things go their own way, without interfering. The 3EC, in my humble opinion, didn't visit Bran. Bran entered its realm, in between worlds when he had his near-death experience. So, let's say a near-death experience can bring you in touch with the 3EC. How this encounter goes and if anyone having a near-death experience gets to meet the crow, or is it important to have First Men blood, I don't know, but this is how I see it. :)

I do like this notion of Bran entering the Crow's world rather than the other way around.

[Little Wing]

I do like this notion of Bran entering the Crow's world rather than the other way around.

Well, needless to say, it's inspired by Heresy. Namely the theory on different realms and the Crow being its own agent. While re-reading it just felt right, that Bran entered the Crow's realm. A world in between life and death.

[Melifeather]

I like the explanation as well.

[nanother]

These chapters are mostly about character building at this point, with some direwolf interaction, some foreshadowing perhaps, and what has to be the cutest scene in the whole series, at the end of Jon's chapter.

Unless there's an unexpected surge of discussion about them, I might post the next chapter somewhat earlier next week.

@ Little Wing, thanks for the offer, I might take you up on it eventually! At the moment time is not the main problem, it's just the computer I'm borrowing - old and slow and sometimes I don't have the patience to deal with its many quirks...

Jon II

Jon:

Is seriously scared of Cat, so much that he avoids visiting Bran until the last minute. With some encouragement from Ghost and drawing strength from the fact that it's his last chance before he goes off to face much worse things, he finally confronts Cat and says good-bye to Bran.

Bran and Summer:

It's been nearly two weeks since the fall. Not-Summer-yet howls, keeping Bran alive. Or so Tyrion thinks in the chapter we skipped.

[Jon] crossed the room, keeping the bed between them, and looked down on Bran where he lay.

She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered.

The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks. Under the blanket, his legs bent in ways that made Jon sick. His eyes were sunken deep into black pits; open, but they saw nothing. The fall had shrunken him somehow. He looked half a leaf, as if the first strong wind would carry him off to his grave.

Yet under the frail cage of those shattered ribs, his chest rose and fell with each shallow breath.

...

Fingers like the bones of birds.

Cat:

Prayed for Bran to stay. She prayed to the Seven, though - did they listen? Notably, she prayed to all seven faces, so also the Stranger, which IIRC people don't usually do. Is he/she/it the only one of the Seven with real power, and is the reason why the Seven seem unmagical because no-one ever prays to him? (for the record, I don't seriously believe any of this, but I think the question is worth asking...)

"It should have been you":

So they have this somewhat puzzling conversation. It's a first time for both of them: the first time Jon didn't flee from Cat's nasty looks, and the first time Cat called him by his name. Should what have been him? The one to nearly die? That's probably what Cat meant. But knowing the consequences, some of the Heretics ask the question: should it have been him? The one with the weirwood-colored pup?

Robb and Grey Wind:

All that happened made him stronger (this is much the same effect that we see in Jon - they both have to start growing up quickly, now). Snowflakes are melting in his hair. He's "standing there in the snow, surrounded by wagons and wolves and horses."

Arya and Nymeria:

They're packing together :D Arya gets Needle :wub: Jon feels better afterward. Those two really seem to have a special connection. I suppose they're both more or less outsiders, Jon being a bastard and Arya not fitting in the role she's expected to play. They're also the only two to have the 'Stark' look.

Tyrion II

The North:

Goes on forever. It's their 18th day and they're still in the Wolfswood. Mind you, they're presumably moving at a relatively slow pace with all the extra horses and ravens.

The Night's Watch:

A 'rude awakening' for Jon, as Tyrion says. Rapers and the 'stooped and sinister' Yoren with his sour smell, greasy hair and lice. Clearly, they're not counting on actually being able to recruit anyone (other than criminals), or they'd send someone better-looking...

Dragons:

So Tyrion casts a large shadow, is obsessed with dragons, and the Stark direwolves seem to dislike him. Foreshadowing? Perhaps the dragons possibly coming North is not the good news people expect it to be?

Jon:

He was "watching Yoren and his sullen companions, with an odd cast to his face that looked uncomfortably like dismay".

The boy absorbed [his tirade about being a dwarf and needing to hone his mind] all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

He-he. Or perhaps she left quite a lot. Anyway, when troubled, or facing a problem to solve, Jon is a bit like Ghost: silent, still, showing very little outward. Of course, Arya is much the same yet Nymeria is not silent like Ghost.

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Ghost:

Tyrion finds him unsettling. He listens to other wolves howling, but never answers.

He attacks when Tyrion taunts Jon about his family and the Watch. Pissed off Jon + Tyrion trying to approach him = Ghost's protective instincts kicking in, I guess.

Possible foreshadowig?

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. “There you are. Jon, damn it,

don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.”

[Lady Olenna]

Well, needless to say, it's inspired by Heresy. Namely the theory on different realms and the Crow being its own agent. While re-reading it just felt right, that Bran entered the Crow's realm. A world in between life and death.

Just sorta bouncing off of this:

As Bran is falling he sees the spikes and the other bones of people that have fallen before? Or am I not remembering this correctly? Are these the bones of those that couldn't open their "third eye"? Or those that couldn't transition from the different realms?

Sort of just rambling here, but something I've though about.

[nanother]

Can it be analogous to the Crone letting the first raven in by opening the door of death? I mean, that's kind of literally what they do...and a crow is almost a raven...

ETA: I got the impression that ths bones were the ones who wouldn't fly...whatever that means. It's something more than just opening your third eye, I think, but not sure what exactly. Anyway, we'll get there soon. I might indeed post that chapter early, seeing that we're already discussing it anyway :D

[Lady Olenna]

My apologies for rushing ahead :blushing:

[nanother]

That's fine, no worries! That's where the interesting stuff is, so that's what we discuss! It's only natural :D

[Black Crow]

Can it be analogous to the Crone letting the first raven in by opening the door of death? I mean, that's kind of literally what they do...and a crow is almost a raven...

Yeah, but remember they are one and the same - all ravens are crows - as explicitly acknowledged by GRRM in that saying "Said the raven to the crow" in one of the Arianne chapters.