Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[Little Wing]

As Bran is falling he sees the spikes and the other bones of people that have fallen before? Or am I not remembering this correctly? Are these the bones of those that couldn't open their "third eye"? Or those that couldn't transition from the different realms?

I agree with nanother in thinking that the other dreamers just wouldn't fly. It's a test. If you doubt yourself, lose faith in yourself - you fall. That's my take on it, who knows why they fell :dunno:

[Little Wing]

Possible foreshadowing?

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. “There you are. Jon, damn it,

don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.”

I think so... Not that I would want it to happen :crying:

I find the bird imagery in Bran's description really interesting. (Crackpot incoming: what if, in the end, the Others take Jon and Bran, as the meaning of his name, ends up in a crow/raven as his second life?)

Cat:

Prayed for Bran to stay. She prayed to the Seven, though - did they listen? Notably, she prayed to all seven faces, so also the Stranger, which IIRC people don't usually do. Is he/she/it the only one of the Seven with real power, and is the reason why the Seven seem unmagical because no-one ever prays to him? (for the record, I don't seriously believe any of this, but I think the question is worth asking...)

Hm... Tyrion prays to the Stranger at some point... and he's pretty lucky at surviving! Not that it has anything to do with praying to the Stranger, but, hey - who knows! Anyway, interesting notion.

ETA: Whops, sorry for double posting :blushing:

[Black Crow]

I think so... Not that I would want it to happen :crying:

I find the bird imagery in Bran's description really interesting. (Crackpot incoming: what if, in the end, the Others take Jon and Bran, as the meaning of his name, ends up in a crow/raven as his second life?)

Well this is where we come back to the Mabinogion, where Bran the Blessed's head is buried underground to watch over the Island of Britain and is guarded by ravens.

Translated; both Bryn (as in Brynden Blackwood) and Bran (as in Brandon Stark) mean crow or raven. First Bryn and now Bran are in the cave to watch over the Island of Westeros, and they are guarded by ravens and crows.

[nanother]

Well this is where we come back to the Mabinogion, where Bran the Blessed's head is buried underground to watch over the Island of Britain and is guarded by ravens.

Translated; both Bryn (as in Brynden Blackwood) and Bran (as in Brandon Stark) mean crow or raven. First Bryn and now Bran are in the cave to watch over the Island of Westeros, and they are guarded by ravens and crows.

:cool4:

The weird thing about the Crone - she stands for wisdom, but opening the door of death isn't generally considered to be wise. Or did she become wise afterwards?

Also, I remembered something in the last Tyrion chapter that I believe I forgot to mention:

Mammoths are 'said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.' Now, I believe they're one of the old races, and widely assumed to be endemic to Westeros. And Ibben/Ib is an island in the Shivering Sea. Not only that, but the first inhabitants of Andalos (well, the ones before the Andals, anyway) are said to have been 'cousins to the hairy men of Ib'. Very curious.

Then, on an unrelated note, in Eddard II I was reminded of the discussion about funeral customs:

A wide plain spread out beneath them, bare and brown, its flatness here and there relieved by long, low hummocks. Ned pointed them out to his king. “The barrows of the First Men.”

Robert frowned. “Have we ridden onto a graveyard?”

“There are barrows everywhere in the north, Your Grace,” Ned told him. “This land is old.”

Also, apparently Ned is willing to go quite far out of his way to deliver the King's justice:

Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king’s justice. Five years had passed since then.

[nanother]

OK, giving in to popular demand (and my own impatience) I'm working on Bran III. It needs to be put into context, though, so I read through the surrounding chapters as well. I was mainly looking for timeline clues (remembered Errant Bard's timeline thread too late) and stuff directly related to Bran's vision. So I'm posting some highlights of these chapters beforehand (I need to think about the actual chapter before posting, so I'll deal with that tomorrow, maybe)

Cat III

Ned and the girls were eight days gone when Maester Luwin came to her one night in Bran’s sickroom, carrying a reading lamp and the books of account.

Cat is really losing it. Goes as far as wanting to kill the direwloves :shocked:

Outside the tower, a wolf began to howl. Catelyn trembled, just for a second. “Bran’s.” Robb opened the window and let the night air into the stuffy tower room. The howling grew louder. It was a cold and lonely sound, full of melancholy and despair.

“Don’t,” she told him. “Bran needs to stay warm.”

“He needs to hear them sing,” Robb said. Somewhere out in Winterfell, a second wolf began to howl in chorus with the first. Then a third, closer. “Shaggydog and Grey Wind,” Robb said as their voices rose and fell together. “You can tell them apart if you listen close."

...

“Make them stop!” she cried. “I can’t stand it, make them stop, make them stop, kill them all if you must, just make them stop!”

Library on fire (good thing Tyrion saved at least a few of the books!), assassin comes, Summer saves the day. licks the blood ff Cat' hand and is finally allowed to stay with Bran.

The wolf was looking at her. Its jaws were red and wet and its eyes glowed golden in the dark room. It was Bran’s wolf, she realized. Of course it was.

And afterwards:

Finally she closed her eyes. When she opened them again, they told her that she had slept four days.

Then they discuss the dagger and make travel plans. She and Ser Rodrick will be riding down to White Harbor as fast as they can and take a ship from there to KL, hoping to be there well before the King's party.

Sansa I

“You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” [the Septa] scowled.

:D

We learn that their journey throught the Neck took 12 days, and that was more than a week before.

Last week we found this haunted watchtower, and the day before we chased a herd of wild horses.

She meets some men of significance: The Hound, Ser Barristan, Renly, and above all Ser Ilyn.

He seemed to feel the weight of her gaze. Slowly he turned his head. Lady growled. A terror as overwhelming as anything Sansa Stark had ever felt filled her suddenly.

...

The tension of a few moments ago was gone, and Sansa was beginning to feel comfortable . . . until Ser Ilyn Payne shouldered two men aside, and stood before her, unsmiling. He did not say a word. Lady bared her teeth and began to growl, a low rumble full of menace, but this time Sansa silenced the wolf with a gentle hand to the head. “I am sorry if I offended you, Ser Ilyn,” she said.

She waited for an answer, but none came. As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

Sounds like massive foreshadowing. Yet, doing his job in beheading Ned doesn't seem to justify it, and neither does anything else he's done. I'm puzzled.

Eddard III :bawl:

His men had been searching for Arya for four days now

He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

...

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa’s look that cut. “She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher.”

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter’s wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. “Lady,” he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, “Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.”

“All that way?” Jory said, astonished.

“All that way,” Ned affirmed. “The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”

:bawl:

Cat IV

They were travelling on Storm Dancer. They had strong winds on the Bite (but clearly blowing in the wrong directions, because they needed the oars) and a storm near Dragonstone.

Eddard IV

The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher’s boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

It sounds like Catelyn was in KL for a few days before Ned:

“I feared you’d never come, my lord,” she whispered against his chest. “Petyr has been bringing me reports. He told me of your troubles with Arya and the young prince. How are my girls?”

Also

Bran’s wolf had saved the boy’s life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa’s, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

---

We also know from the previous Tyrion chapter that the ride to the Wall took significantly longer than 18 days, and from the upcoming Jon chapter we'll learn that Ben rode ut 3 days after they arrived, promising to be back by Jon's name day, while going as far as the Shadow tower. They recceive the news of Bran waking two weeks after his nameday.

I never thought about just how much real-world time Bran's 'dream' covers. He's falling very fast, so I just assumed that it all happens in a relatively short time and that he's seeing a snapshot of the world at the time, without stopping to think. But, apparently, a seemingly short dream-space time corresponds to weeks of real-world time. All the clues above (and EB's timeline) puts Bran's waking at least two weeks after the events at the Trindent and Darry. Cat's sailing across the Bite must have been well before even that, although it's hard to give a good guess. All other things he saw, about Winterfell and Jon, could be anytime after Cat left WF/Jon arrived at the Wall, and the bit about the dragons stirring is too obscure altogether.

Now, I'm not sure how much can be read into that: I suspect the literary aim of these visions is to show each character at a characteristic moment of their respective journeys (literal or otherwise) after the last time we saw them. In the coming chapters, we see all those journeys coming to an end. Still it should also make sense Westeros-wise. So either he somehow sees an assortment of images from the near past (but that doesn't really fit, because each scene he sees feels like present), or wherever he is has a very different flow of time than the outside world. Is anyone else reminded of weirwood trees?

[Lady Olenna]

I've interpreted Bran's visions as present time (but perhaps like slow motion or warped - not unlike the weirwood trees). I know there's a lot of theories and discussion on the forum about it and I've read some, if not most of it. Seems like a lot of folks think the vision spans a vast amount of time :dunno:

I'm not sure about the dragons stirring, I have only a few thoughts but not much more than that. And contrary to what most reader's on the forum believe, I think the stone giant is Illyn Payne and not LF or UnGregor.

The chapter is written so beautifully that we really get to see the events from the bird's eye view, so to speak. Even seeing into the heart of Winter is terrifying despite the fact that we never get to see what is.

[Melifeather]

I am one of those who fall into the "real time" camp. I can accept that what Bran sees spans perhaps the weeks that he is in the coma. To me that makes sense. I have to respectfully disagree with Lady Olenna regarding the stone giant. I don't believe Illyn Payne is that important of a character. I think the plot of the dagger is what we see unfolding...with Cat sailing to Winterfell to warn Ned. We learn later on that Littlefinger ultimately was responsible for Jon Arryn's death, so he is the stone giant behind the scenes. Littlefinger manipulates Lysa into poisoning her own husband, which in turn results in King Robert asking Ned to be Hand. Joffrey overhears King Robert stating that it would be a mercy if Bran died, so Joffrey steals or has the Hound steal it and hire the assassin. When Littlefinger sees the dagger that Cat has brought to Kings Landing, he recognizes the blade and makes up a story that is sure to point the finger at Tyrion. Littlefinger claims he bet on Jaime to win and that Tyrion bet that his brother would lose, but we all know Tyrion would never bet against his own family so that is an outright lie. That lie is proof that Littlefinger suspects that Joffrey did it, but redirects the blame. This is the evidence that Littlefinger is the stone giant, as well as the stone giant being his original family sigil.

[nanother]

Bran III

Everything is taking shape gradually: he'd been falling for what felt like years through darkness and grey mists, accompanied by a whispering voice telling him to fly (seems like the grey mists are illuminated by the world below, and that's the only source of light, hence the darkness above). As the ground is getting more clearly visible, the voice becomes the 'high and thin' voice of the crow who talks and later as the urgency of the situation increases even shrieks at him.

Is it a dream?

The crow asks that question.

“Are you really a crow?” Bran asked.

Are you really falling? the crow asked back.

“It’s just a dream,” Bran said.

Is it? asked the crow.

“I’ll wake up when I hit the ground,” Bran told the bird.

You’ll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

It's certainly no ordinary dream, but what exactly is it?

Grey mists:

They fill the whole space he's falling in, and go from whirling to howling as he falls faster and faster. At some point Jaime Lannister's face 'swims at him' from the mist, but the crow chases it away. Finally they rip away as he wakes.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed- high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, “He’s awake, he’s awake, he’s awake.”

A veil, put on to cover distractions like Jaime Lannister? Or an integral part of... wherever Bran was falling?

And what's the scream of fear about?

Flying and the third eye:

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

...

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

Is that so? Does this refer to near-death experiences being necessary?

Yet, when Bran's finally flying, it's not enough for the crow:

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

“I’m flying!” he cried out in delight.

I’ve noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.

“What are you doing?” he shrieked.

Is that to imply that he's using the wrong set of eyes? Also, was this indended to wake him, or was that just an unwanted side effect? I'd like to think that this whole vision is seen through his third eye - as the wolf dreams are when it spontaneously opens while sleeping (or in coma, in this case) - but it doesn't seem to fit...

Anyway, it certainly left a mark of some sort:

Bran touched his forehead, between his eyes. The place where the crow had pecked him was still burning, but there was nothing there, no blood, no wound.

Interestingly, once he's awake, he opens his third eye first, and he won't 'fly' for a long time afterwards. Does 'flying' have the same meaning in both contexts? If so, I can't quite put my finger on what it might be...

The crow:

He seems to have been keeping Bran company throughout his fall in the dark - or did he only join as he was nearing the ground? Anyway, he's trying to get Bran to fly.

He has three eyes, although Bran doesn't notice that until he saw the heart of winter.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge.

And here the crow whispers again.

The visions:

Do they show the present, past, or future? To me it seems like a mixture of 'real' elements, which are present-time, and symbolic elements that represent either present events going on behind the scenes, or possibly the future.

Winterfell: The most remarkable thing here is the heart tree that looks back.

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

The Bite: I suspect that the storm gathering ahead is not the real one they run into, but the plot LF and Varys are brewing in KL. So I'd say it's a symbolic element pointing to something hidden in the present.

A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

The Trident: Again, he sees family members in clear detail, and then these 'shadows' around them - possibly not being physically around (but then, the obvious one, the Hound is around), or becoming significant only in the future (but the the Hound is already significant)... Note that there are more of them, the three he pointed out being probably the most remarkable (perhaps because they already have a significant role?).

Essos: so, what's the deal with the dragons stirring? One possibility that it's not actually in Asshai, just that general direction, meaning Dany's dragons. Or, seeing that Dany's eggs are supposedly from Asshai, it could still mean Dany's dragons (although not quite convincingly enough). Or, moving towards crackpot territory, is there a 'Mother of All Dragons' hiding in Asshai, sending 'dragon dreams' to Dany and sort of orchestrating the whole dragon-hatching plot? Kinda like the Essosi equivalent of Old Gods/green dreams/ BR/possibly heart of winter?

The Wall:

He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

The heart of winter:

And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

OK, so winter=darkness=curtain of light? And there's a Shadow near Asshai? Also, possibly heart of winter=fairyland, with the curtain of light being the portal? And what does he see?! I wanna know :tantrum:

Death:

Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

“Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?” he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

And his father’s voice replied to him. “That is the only time a man can be brave.”

Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.

So what's the deal with this almost personified death? Just dramatic effect?

Summer:

Has a name now:

And then there was movement beside the bed, and something landed lightly on his legs. He felt nothing. A pair of yellow eyes looked into his own, shining like the sun. The window was open and it was cold in the room, but the warmth that came off the wolf enfolded him like a hot bath. His pup Bran realized . . . or was it? He was so big now. He reached out to pet him, his hand trembling like a leaf.

When his brother Robb burst into the room, breathless from his dash up the tower steps, the direwolf was licking Bran’s face. Bran looked up calmly. “His name is Summer,” he said.

He did need to see the heart of winter to come up with that, I guess...

[Mace Cooterian]

I am one of those who fall into the "real time" camp. I can accept that what Bran sees spans perhaps the weeks that he is in the coma. To me that makes sense. I have to respectfully disagree with Lady Olenna regarding the stone giant. I don't believe Illyn Payne is that important of a character. I think the plot of the dagger is what we see unfolding...with Cat sailing to Winterfell to warn Ned. We learn later on that Littlefinger ultimately was responsible for Jon Arryn's death, so he is the stone giant behind the scenes. Littlefinger manipulates Lysa into poisoning her own husband, which in turn results in King Robert asking Ned to be Hand. Joffrey overhears King Robert stating that it would be a mercy if Bran died, so Joffrey steals or has the Hound steal it and hire the assassin. When Littlefinger sees the dagger that Cat has brought to Kings Landing, he recognizes the blade and makes up a story that is sure to point the finger at Tyrion. Littlefinger claims he bet on Jaime to win and that Tyrion bet that his brother would lose, but we all know Tyrion would never bet against his own family so that is an outright lie. That lie is proof that Littlefinger suspects that Joffrey did it, but redirects the blame. This is the evidence that Littlefinger is the stone giant, as well as the stone giant being his original family sigil.

@Feather. I really like this explanation on the stone giant in the dream. While LF in the GoT and ACoK wears a mockingbird as his crest, his family sigil is the stone giant:

Petyr Baelish’s great-grandfather was a Braavosi sellsword in the service of Lord Corbray; when his son became a hedge knight he took the stone head of the Titan of Braavos as his sigil. Lord Baelish’s father was the smallest of small lords of a few rocky acres on the smallest of the Fingers.

I particularly like GRRM's play on words about LF's father being the smallest of small lords.

[Mace Cooterian]

Grey mists:

They fill the whole space he's falling in, and go from whirling to howling as he falls faster and faster. At some point Jaime Lannister's face 'swims at him' from the mist, but the crow chases it away. Finally they rip away as he wakes.

Quote

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman

A veil, put on to cover distractions like Jaime Lannister? Or an integral part of... wherever Bran was falling?

I tend to look at this image of Jaime as a distraction for Bran. He is not focusing, but yet remembering the last face he saw before the fall from the castle tower. The shrill scream of fear from the crow is what we call an attention gettter. "Hey Bran, focus or you will lose yourself and fall to your death".

To me the thing that seals the deal on this is once the crow shrieks, gets Bran's attention back and then the Grey Mists are pulled away...the image of the Crow is a woman. This most certainly sounds like Heresy views on the Maiden, Mother and Crone concept. I was going to make a reference to which of the three stages off the Triple Goddess that the crows female image represents; but I think you could make a case for all three of them representing some facet of this early encounter.

Also, I might add that the thought that this encounter could be taken that Bran had crossed over into the Crow's world appears to have solid footings.

[nanother]

Re: stone giant: none of the theories I've seen are truly convincing, but I agree with Fearther that LF seems to make the most sense. Unless Ser Ilyn does something unexpected in the upcoming books to live up to the apparent foreshadowing he got from Sansa. Simply being Robert's headsman doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned - even though he does quite a bit of 'looming' above various Stark family members, he's just a pawn, not an agent on his own. And what's the deal with his eyes (in the Sansa chapter)? Why should we care about a butcher's eyes?

@ Mace

Yeah, the crow says he's teaching Bran to fly, but most of what he does is basically keeping Bran focused on the task (after setting the task in the first place). Put distracting memories away, don't sink into self-pity, face your fears. Which is kind of what a good teacher does with a talented pupil, I guess.

As for the woman, it might not have been clear from the quote that it was an actual serving woman in Winterfell... I added the rest of the paragraph to the quote to be more obvious. Sorry for any confusion caused!

[Lady Olenna]

The reason I believe the stone giant may be Illyne is because he is Sansa's focus during those events. She takes great care to mention his eyes, his coldness and the amount of fear she has of him. As we are left in DWD he is retraining Jaime to fight again and possibly bringing Jaime back into physical play so to speak. I don't think his role is over and he may have a bigger role to play.

But... If it is LF I can completely see why. No argument from me. I just feel like the visions are real time and have to do with what we can see at the time. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong :D

[Melifeather]

First, I would like to state that what I am about to say isn't necessarily what I believe...it's just a theory that needs to be explored....

If the 3EC is a separate entity...and I've read two really good pieces of evidence that Bloodraven is the 3EC....but, if he isn't and the 3EC is the Morrigan or an agent of the death/spirit world, then I can see how he doesn't really want Bran to fly. This could be the fight for Bran's "soul". When Bran flies, the 3EC gets into Bran's face and pecks his forehead. You could look at it as wanting to wake Bran up, or you could say that the 3EC is trying to make him quit flying and to fall.

As for the curtain of light. I'm not sure what it is, but the first thing that comes to mind is the aurora borealis, or northern lights.

[nanother]

@ Ladey Olenna:

I agree that Ser Ilyn might have some larger role to play, mostly based on Sansa's foreshadowing.

@ Feather Crystal:

Yeah, the 'curtain of light' was very likely inspired by the aurora borealis - but I suspect it's origin might turn out to be quite different, although I have no idea what it'll be :dunno:

As to the crow and whether it really wanted Bran to fly: to that, the answer seems a strong yes. If it didn't, he could just have not bothered teaching him, right? He could've just let him fall and die as he was going to. That also implies that the crow was working against 'death' in the vision. I do admit I found his 'attacking' of Bran extremely confusing on my first read (in fact I still find it a bit odd), but I just can't imagine why make Bran fly if he didn't actually want him to. (Assuming the crow was indeed teaching Bran, as he claimed, 'blinding' seems to help people to get control of their third eyes, so it's safe enough to assume that he was just moving on to the next lesson. Only Bran woke - perhaps sooner than the crow wanted?)

As to who the crow is, well, as you say there's pretty good evidence that it's BR. But the crow still could be a form imposed on him from 'above'. But then who would that be?

Actually, in a way BR is an agent of the 'spirit world' - we're told that the Old Gods are basically dead CotF (that 'went into the trees'). In fact, I like to think that Bran is in that spirit world, hence his fall being so drawn out in real-world time.

But does that mean these Old Gods haven't died 'properly'? Is 'death' in Bran's vision just the death of the physical body, or would it be a total sipritual death?

[Black Crow]

Running ahead, but relevant, I have a recollection that when Bran contacted Jon in the Frostfangs he poked him in the forehead (with a weirwood branch) to open his third eye and let him warg into Ghost.

[nanother]

Indeed, and this poking results in Ghost waking up. Although, technically Jon was already warged into Ghost when Bran poked him/them.

[nanother]

Where's everyone :unsure: Too busy? Lost interest?

Oh well, it's kind of useful for me to try to write these summaries in any case...

[Little Wing]

I'm still here, no worries. It's just that I've commented on Bran's dream already :)

[nanother]

Oh, OK. I was hoping for some more input on the major points of confusion, especially seeing that people kept jumping forward to this chapter before, but I guess we can just move on.

[Melifeather]

I have been reading everyone's posts. I haven't found much to disagree with....that and my new job is so taxing. I don't find that I have a lot of free time anymore. :frown5: