Finding bits of LOTR influences in ASOIAF

[Jon's Queen Consort]

"When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear."

LOTR, appendix A on Istari. Pay special notice to the part about "forbidden to match his power with power".

So, how am I wrong again ? The magic exhibited by the Istari is paltry compared to what the Maia are capable of, including the ability to shed their phyisical form like so many clothes.

Both Gandalf and Saruman also clearly exhibit limitations far beyond what a Maia would have if left with full capabilities, particularly in not being aware of many many things.

If you want an example of a Maia on Middle Earth without limitations, there's Melian, who basically stands up to Morgoth for thousands of years. Quite different from the Istari, then.

He was forbidden not it wasn't possible to do it, he wasn't allowed to do it not he didn't had the power to do it.

[Lord Reaver]

With the Valar, being forbidden from and not being capable of aren't as different concepts as you seem to think.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

With the Valar, being forbidden from and not being capable of aren't as different concepts as you seem to think.

The way I see it forbidden means that you are not allowed to use the powers you have, no powers means that you have no power to use. Curumo was forbidden to use his powers but he did even that is why he was banished from Valinor.

[SeanF]

I agree so much! There were so many grey characters in Tolkien's world but because there were no on screen sex-blood-gore people can't see the complexity of the characters.

Gandalf was basicaly and angel when Mel is a human.

This. Although I think Mel's magic has so transformed her that she can't really be considered human any more.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

There is Hammerhorn, the seat of House Goodbrook, which sounds a little bit like the Horn of Helm Hammerhand. Maybe that is stretching a bit.

The Horn of Kerrock is more reminiscent of the Horn of Helm imo

[TomWillcox]

The Horn of Kerrock is more reminiscent of the Horn of Helm imo

I dunno, The horn of Helm is actually part of the castle of Helm's Deep if I recall correctly.

Either way, my point was more that the name Hammerhorn might be a little nod to the Horn of Helm Hammerhand, like Riverrun is a nod to River Running, despite one being a castle and the other a river. :)

[Mladen]

I thought it would be a good idea to link here my work on Lyanna/Eowyn parallels... Hope you like it...

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

One of the Shield Islands is named "Oakenshield"...

[Lccf]

I found a lot of maurice druons les rois mauditis. And Im serious when I say "a lot".

[Lccf]

Great thread. I may have missed it, but has anyone pointed out yet that, if you take Tolkien's name for the gods, and add one of the words for "sorcerer", you basically end up for the Valyrian phrase for "all men must die" ?

[Sapphire Isle]

nobody's mentioned Evenstar?

[Hand to King Davos]

Obviously Sam Tarly-Sam Gamgee.

Also, I like Denethor-Boromir-Faramir = Tywin-Jaime-Tyrion. Manipulative father favors elder warrior son, dislikes the younger son who is more like him because said son is connected to the death of a wife that he loved.

Also, agree with everyone who says that the two worlds are more similar than they seem. IMO, the books of ASOIAF we have seen so far are not quite LOTR, but rather the events that took place leading up to it, e.g. Grima corrupting Theoden, Denethor beating up on Faramir, all the races not trusting each other at all, Sauron being kind of subtle, not really forcing everyone to fight him yet, while gathering the Haradrim and the Easterlings to his armies. The last two books could look a lot more like LOTR, with the Others being destroyed, as people finally realize what the real threat is.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The differences between the two books are more prominent that the similarities. Tolkien's LOTR didn't have morally ambiguous characters; there was either good or evil.

Anyway I digress. Similarities I believe would be the whole "weakness of men" business.

All of that is completely wrong. You weren’t paying attention.

Thorin.

Beorn.

Boromir.

Denethor.

Theoden.

Sméagol.

Frodo.

Fëanor.

Fingolfin.

Maedros.

Maglor.

Curufin.

Daeron.

There’s plenty more where those came from.

And there is no “weakness of Men” crap in Tolkien. That was a delusion of Jackson’s.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Castamir the Usurper, who did not end well.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Check my edit.

Boromir is grey.

Galadriel? Not really. She turns away from the ring. We are meant to think well of her, no question.

Thranduil, Thorin, Lobelia? We're not discussing Tolkien's whole legendarium, just LOTR. The Silmarillion and such are a different question, though I would still say they adhere primarily to black and white morality. I would have to explain things a bit further than I would for LOTR to justify that, though.

If Galadriel was so wonderful, why did she fall under the Ban?

[Hand to King Davos]

And there is no “weakness of Men” crap in Tolkien. That was a delusion of Jackson’s.

Actually Tolkien has a lot of "weakness of Men" in his books. Frodo even tells Boromir "it would seem like wisdom but for the warning in my heart... against trust in the strength and truth of men." Right after this Boromir attacks Frodo, so he was clearly right.

Agree with the rest of what you said though.

[Fire Eater]

"Two [horn] blasts," he announced. Val

Tormund Giabtsbane had come at last.

Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

-The Return of the King, Battle of Pelennor Fields.

Tormund's arrival is a reference to the arrival of the Rohirrim, which included Eowyn. Like Val, Eowyn is a grey-eyed blonde princess who is a skilled rider and rides a grey horse. Eowyn was also known for her unrequited love for Aragorn, just as Val has towards Jon (at the moment at least).

Finally, Eowyn killed the Witch-king of Angmar. The closest that comes to the Witch-king is Melisandre, IMO. Both are undead sorcerers who were involved with the creation of a kingdom in the North, if you take into account Mel and Stannis currently gaining the North. If Mel ever gets into the CotF cave and tries to harm Bran, thinking he is a servant of the Great Other, I think Val will stand in her way. She could find Dark Sister in there, and drive it through Mel's head.

[Nozlym]

if this actually happens. with val killing mel, ill remember this and give massive koodos to u

[Mithras]

Eowyn was also known for her unrequited love for Aragorn, just as Val has towards Jon (at the moment at least).

Eowyn didnot end up with Aragorn ;)

[Fire Eater]

Eowyn didnot end up with Aragorn ;)

I know that, but I don't think the parallel will be complete there. I also think Jon shares a few parallels with Faramir. Faramir is the second son of Denethor, who led the Rangers of Ithilien against Sauron. Faramir was a brave warrior admired by his soldiers, although he did not care much for battle and arms. He loved lore and music, and had a gentle nature (Rhaegar anyone). Faramir met his future wife, Eowyn, whilst he was healing after originally being thought dead, and his father tried to burn him. I think Jon, a second son who leads the NW fight against the Others, and is currently thought dead with the wounds received and likely slated to be burned after Marsh shows his body to the Boltons as undeniable proof that Jon is dead, will have his future wife, Val, present at his healing.