R+L=J v.42

[Addam of Hull]

Well, mine certainly isn't. It's borne out of minimal logistical information, and the fact that rhinos could be herded through the wiggle room GRRM created for himself. Yet people forget this and leap to conclusions.

For instance, we know that

1. Rhaegar chose Lyanna as QoLaB. There were eyewitnesses.

But we do not know that

2. Rhaegar ran away with or kidnapped Lyanna. There were, apparently, no eyewitnesses.

All we "know" is that they apparently disappeared at the same time... and because of 1, Westeros said "Aha, well, we know what that's all about." And so did a huge percentage of the fanbase.

Once you subtract 2 from your reasoning, and focus on what is actually known, the case for Rhaegar looks a lot weaker. You can no longer assume, for instance, that Rhaegar and Lyanna must've been together when Jon was conceived. You can't even establish they were on the same continent when Jon was conceived.

There are many other problems with Rhaegar that have nothing to do with character. It is very peculiar he looks so little like Jon, for instance, in this series where Targaryen fathers who have children by non-Targaryen mothers usually bestow on those children at least one Targaryen trait.

Bittersteel had the eyes; Shiera Seastar had the hair. Baelor Breakspear's eye color is never specified, so we don't know. Rhaenys is said to have the "Dornish look," but just like Baelor, it's possible that only means the hair. Etc.

It is difficult finding a half-Targaryen boy, anywhere in the series, whom we know for sure had zero Targaryen traits. Bloodraven is the only one that comes to my mind, and he was an albino.

And Rhaegar's romantic history prior to Elia is also... let's say "surprising."

I remember being a teen boy very clearly. Given the opportunity to have sex with any woman I wanted, anywhere in America, I would certainly have done so many times, with many women. Rhaegar? Not so much as a hint, allusion, or rumor, let alone known fact. To the best of our knowledge, he married as a virgin.

This is quite a bit different from, say, Robert Baratheon, or Brandon Stark, or any number of other male characters who did not lead so apparently chaste a life. It reminds one of, say, Renly.

Add it all up and it appears to me that Rhaegar is not a particularly good candidate for father. There are better.

Actually, we do know that 2 is true. The AWOIAF app not only confirmed that Rhaegar took Lyanna, but that he had Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent assisting him.

[Jon Icefyre]

Cool, another troll.

Hahaha

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Well, mine certainly isn't. It's borne out of minimal logistical information, and the fact that rhinos could be herded through the wiggle room GRRM created for himself. Yet people forget this and leap to conclusions.

Actually, he doesn't have a lot of wiggle room as far as Jon's parentage is concerned. He has backed himself into a pretty small corner.

For instance, we know that

1. Rhaegar chose Lyanna as QoLaB. There were eyewitnesses.

But we do not know that

2. Rhaegar ran away with or kidnapped Lyanna. There were, apparently, no eyewitnesses.

All we "know" is that they apparently disappeared at the same time... and because of 1, Westeros said "Aha, well, we know what that's all about." And so did a huge percentage of the fanbase.

If you chose to disregard the app; we still do not know if Rhaegar did not run away with or kidnap Lyanna, since it is your belief that there weren't any eye witnesses. What we do know is that all of the people involved in the rebellion believed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together, which includes people on both sides.

Once you subtract 2 from your reasoning, and focus on what is actually known, the case for Rhaegar looks a lot weaker. You can no longer assume, for instance, that Rhaegar and Lyanna must've been together when Jon was conceived. You can't even establish they were on the same continent when Jon was conceived.

It's a bit hard to subtract 2 from your reasoning, because the characters in the story fully accept that it happened and it is also supported by the author.

There are many other problems with Rhaegar that have nothing to do with character. It is very peculiar he looks so little like Jon, for instance, in this series where Targaryen fathers who have children by non-Targaryen mothers usually bestow on those children at least one Targaryen trait.

Bittersteel had the eyes; Shiera Seastar had the hair. Baelor Breakspear's eye color is never specified, so we don't know. Rhaenys is said to have the "Dornish look," but just like Baelor, it's possible that only means the hair. Etc.

It is also possible that Rhaenys truly had the "Dornish" look, the same way Jon has the "Stark" look. Plus, Jon has many of Rhaegar's personality traits.

It is difficult finding a half-Targaryen boy, anywhere in the series, whom we know for sure had zero Targaryen traits. Bloodraven is the only one that comes to my mind, and he was an albino.

So they cannot exist?

And Rhaegar's romantic history prior to Elia is also... let's say "surprising."

I remember being a teen boy very clearly. Given the opportunity to have sex with any woman I wanted, anywhere in America, I would certainly have done so many times, with many women. Rhaegar? Not so much as a hint, allusion, or rumor, let alone known fact. To the best of our knowledge, he married as a virgin.

This is quite a bit different from, say, Robert Baratheon, or Brandon Stark, or any number of other male characters who did not lead so apparently chaste a life. It reminds one of, say, Renly.

Welp, when you're the heir to the Targaryren dynasty it's probably not a good idea to start sleeping around and fathering bastards. The Targaryren history plainly shows the trouble bastards can cause a monarchy. Plus, based on the text, Rhaegar was worried about more important things during his youth. Then there's the fact that not every teenage boy finds pleasure in being a man-whore. As evidenced by a few characters in the text.

Add it all up and it appears to me that Rhaegar is not a particularly good candidate for father. There are better.

I don't know of any other candidates.

[Jon Icefyre]

Actually, he doesn't have a lot of wiggle room as far as Jon's parentage is concerned. He has backed himself into a pretty small corner.

If you chose to disregard the app; we still do not know if Rhaegar did not run away with or kidnap Lyanna, since it is your belief that there weren't any eye witnesses. What we do know is that all of the people involved in the rebellion believed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together, which includes people on both sides.

It's a bit hard to subtract 2 from your reasoning, because the characters in the story fully accept that it happened and it is also supported by the author.

It is also possible that Rhaenys truly had the "Dornish" look, the same way Jon has the "Stark" look. Plus, Jon has many of Rhaegar's personality traits.

So they cannot exist?

Welp, when you're the heir to the Targaryren dynasty it's probably not a good idea to start sleeping around and fathering bastards. The Targaryren history plainly shows the trouble bastards can cause a monarchy. Plus, based on the text, Rhaegar was worried about more important things during his youth. Then there's the fact that not every teenage boy finds pleasure in being a man-whore. As evidenced by a few characters in the text.

I don't know of any other candidates.

GOD DAMN THAT'S GOOD STUFF! Hahaha :bowdown: .

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

GOD DAMN THAT'S GOOD STUFF! Hahaha :bowdown: .

It's been a while, I couldn't resist! :D

[sabrecmc]

Noticed in AFFC that the Elder Brother tells Brienne that 6 of Rhaegar's 7 rubies have washed up and they are waiting on the 7th. Considering the importance placed on the number 7, it occured to me that maybe the missing ruby could be buried with Lyanna? In a ring or crown or sword? Also thinking of Mel and her rubies...anyway, it just struck me this time that it was an odd thing to randomly throw out there.

[Alia of the knife]

Noticed in AFFC that the Elder Brother tells Brienne that 6k of Rhaegar's 7 rubies have washed up and they are waiting on the 7th. Considering the importance placed on the number 7, it occured to me that maybe the missing ruby could be bwuried with Lyanna? In a ring or crown or sword? Also thinking of Mel and her rubies...anyway, it just struck me this time that it was an odd thing to randomly throw out there.

Thats a possibility.

[J. Stargaryen]

Noticed in AFFC that the Elder Brother tells Brienne that 6 of Rhaegar's 7 rubies have washed up and they are waiting on the 7th. Considering the importance placed on the number 7, it occured to me that maybe the missing ruby could be buried with Lyanna? In a ring or crown or sword? Also thinking of Mel and her rubies...anyway, it just struck me this time that it was an odd thing to randomly throw out there.

This reminds of something I read recently. In the third Moments of Foreshadowing thread coil compares Jon to the Stranger during the burning of the Seven on Dragonstone. The Stranger is the oddball god, the one that nobody prays to. Out of the Seven, the Stranger is the seventh. And then we have Rhaegar's missing ruby, which is the seventh ruby.

I'm only on Cersei's first chapter in AFfC, so I don't know a lot about the Elder Brother and whatnot. Maybe someone else has something to add here. I mean, are they really "waiting" for the seventh ruby? Because, you know, that could be like waiting for a savior, for example. Thoughts?

[sabrecmc]

The quote is "We are all waiting for the seventh.". So, yes, definitely could be read as waiting on more than a ruby. Of course, it isn't definitive that these are Rhaegar's rubies, but, again, it just struck me on reread. I'm not sure where it goes, but there has been lots of speculation about "proof" buried with Lyanna. It just ran through my head that the missing ruby could come up again, much like a certain locket that wouldn't open in HP. Glad you all don't think I'm totally bonkers!

[J. Stargaryen]

The quote is "We are all waiting for the seventh.". So, yes, definitely could be read as waiting on more than a ruby. Of course, it isn't definitive that these are Rhaegar's rubies, but, again, it just struck me on reread. I'm not sure where it goes, but there has been lots of speculation about "proof" buried with Lyanna. It just ran through my head that the missing ruby could come up again, much like a certain locket that wouldn't open in HP. Glad you all don't think I'm totally bonkers!

Yeah, that definitely works. Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Trident easily works as a metaphor for his blood spilling into the Trident. And ones "blood" quite often means ones family.

[Jon Icefyre]

This reminds of something I read recently. In the third Moments of Foreshadowing thread coil compares Jon to the Stranger during the burning of the Seven on Dragonstone. The Stranger is the oddball god, the one that nobody prays to. Out of the Seven, the Stranger is the seventh. And then we have Rhaegar's missing ruby, which is the seventh ruby.

I'm only on Cersei's first chapter in AFfC, so I don't know a lot about the Elder Brother and whatnot. Maybe someone else has something to add here. I mean, are they really "waiting" for the seventh ruby? Because, you know, that could be like waiting for a savior, for example. Thoughts?

The quote is "We are all waiting for the seventh.". So, yes, definitely could be read as waiting on more than a ruby. Of course, it isn't definitive that these are Rhaegar's rubies, but, again, it just struck me on reread. I'm not sure where it goes, but there has been lots of speculation about "proof" buried with Lyanna. It just ran through my head that the missing ruby could come up again, much like a certain locket that wouldn't open in HP. Glad you all don't think I'm totally bonkers!

Yeah, that definitely works. Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Trident easily works as a metaphor for his blood spilling into the Trident. And ones "blood" quite often means ones family.

GRRM really is a fucking infuriating literary genius when it comes to creating scenes in the story that are vague enough to overlook on first, second, even third reads, yet at the same time insightful enough that if caught by the reader it can lead to some really intriguing forshadowings/speculations by the reader. I love it and hate it at the same time.

[sabrecmc]

Rubies=blood metaphor. You guys are brilliant! Love it. The little puzzle pieces are why I am here on my iPhone instead of, you know, doing something productive with my Saturday.

[FrozenFire3]

With all due respect, while prophesy and politics are a factor in the series, I think also being Human is as well and all the motivations that come with it are also a factor.

Maybe more so since the Authors original intent was not to even include Dragons, or go that heavy on magic, since it appears one of the messages that the Author.appears to be giving through his works are about people who get caught up in religious zealotry and living by prophesy rather than living.

To me, Rhaegars humanity and his potential struggles are much more interesting than him coldly reacting to some prophesy, which we as readers have not even seen yet.

As far as Rhaegar goes, yes I think he is a nebulous character, and I neither like, or dislike him, but take the attitude that I need more information about him before I fall in love with him.

The discussion was of the different possibilities of crowning Lyanna in front of all when the theory goes he's supposed to be protecting her idenity, because it doesn't make sense if the goal for her is to lay low until the uproar dies down.

I saw no where where anyone dislikes, or hates Rhaegar, and in terms of basing these apparently heretical thoughts on some real-life experience, I might conclude that while this page is supposed to be about R+L=J, and possible theories and ideas surrounding them, it inevitably becomes the Rhaegar appreciation page, and anyone who isn't in love with the man, and trying to discuss him objectively becomes a heretic.

Nothing was ever said that prophesy didn't play a part in his relationship with Lyanna, but the degree of it has been the question.

I also might conclude that much of the theories surrounding Rhaegar, Lyanna, and his relationship with Elia, especially Elia being okay with such an arrangement, and is in on the prophesy might suggest an attempt to preserve Rhaegars noble character in the face of his doing something outrageous, rather than to look objectively at it, because if it is about propehsy, then he most definitelty got it wrong considering the other two heads of the dragon were killed in the process.

Theres also the message that when one lives by prophesy and tries to bring it about, often bad things happen.

And getting the prophesy wrong also means that Rhaegar could have started the apocolyptic events by taking matters into his own hands, all topics that the Author might be trying to convey, which again doesn't mean Rhaegar is a bad man without good intentions, but I think we all know where the road of "good intentions" leads to.

And Martin may actully be setting Rhaegar up for Dany as her teachable moment, given the degree of hero-worship she has for him, and as a barometer for choices NOT to make as Selmy alludes to in his thoughts on Rhaegar.

And I'm not sure why this is a bad thing, because all Martins responsibility is is to tell a good story.

Just because someone sees something different, or has a different take-away doesn't mean their right, or that others are wrong, it's simply that, a different view, and I would imagine thats part of the Authors intent in order to create a discussion.

Honestly, I'm looking back over the posts, and I'm trying to find whats so objectionable, and am not really seeing it.

Finally, I'm always amazed at these threads that in the process of defending a fictional character, that it's often a real person on the other end that gets attacked in the process of that defense, not thats necessarily this thread, or even this topic, but on other threads, it's pretty appalling the way some are treated in the defense of someone that isnt' even real, and unfortunately shuts down communication and the conversation.

I can understand feeling passionate about a favorite character, again, I'm sure the Authors intent, but there is perspective as well.. when it's stops being fun, what is the point?

:leaving:

:agree: and it's not your insightful and mind challenging contribution that I was addressing. Not at all. Quoting Ygrain, it's more that lingering hatefest that seems trending throughout the Asoiaf virtual community. What I was trying to point out is that we have so little textual ground to pass a final judgement. Simple as that. I also feel there is a... shady side to Rhaegar, a bipolar intensity to his emotions. I even compared him to a sort of brooding, passional, apocalyptic Machiavelli's Prince. After all, that is the literary point. GRRM teases me endlessly with his staedy stream of tales, references, mentions. He challenges me, makes me want to unveil the mystery of the persona (No. Pun. Intended. LOL). It's such a narrative puzzle that vouch for the non-bidimensional quality of a character. I just wouldn't use real/modern life interpretation tools to decrypt him. Some people do that all the time. But he is not my best friend's husband who left her for a younger woman :rolleyes: He is a fictional character with archetypal nuances to his narrative palette: he is the controversial anti-hero that needs to be analysed with the instruments of mythology, simbology and metaphor.

As for his motivations, again I agree with you. Love was a key factor. The Targaryen dragon possibly waked in him breathing the fire of passion. I also think such a single mindedness is a distinctive trait of his persona. The profetic aspect (either in form of dreams or in that of scrolls/tales) is not prevalent. It's just deeply interwoven into the texture of his feelings. So much I hypothesized he could have dreamt of Lyanna before meeting her and fallen in love with her literally ante litteram. Scary. And terribly intriguing ;)

[FrozenFire3]

Yeah, that definitely works. Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Trident easily works as a metaphor for his blood spilling into the Trident. And ones "blood" quite often means ones family.

Perfect metaphor is perfect ;)

There are many other problems with Rhaegar that have nothing to do with character. It is very peculiar he looks so little like Jon, for instance, in this series where Targaryen fathers who have children by non-Targaryen mothers usually bestow on those children at least one Targaryen trait.

The Sworn Sword (Dunk and Egg 2), here is how Aegon/Egg's eyes are described:

In the dimness of the lamplit cellar they looked black, but in better light their true colour could be seen: deep and dark and purple

This is Rhaegar's eyes description (in Daenerys' HotU visions):

His eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac

Lyanna is assumed to have grey eyes, a trait of the Starks (see comparison with Arya's)

Jon's eyes description (GoT, Bran's point of view):

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black

Hint, hint ;)

I remember being a teen boy very clearly. Given the opportunity to have sex with any woman I wanted, anywhere in America, I would certainly have done so many times, with many women.

Tsk, tsk, such a discrimination! Why deny such an unmissable opportunity to all the exotic beauties anywhere outside America??? :lmao:

Rhaegar? Not so much as a hint, allusion, or rumor, let alone known fact. To the best of our knowledge, he married as a virgin.This is quite a bit different from, say, Robert Baratheon, or Brandon Stark, or any number of other male characters who did not lead so apparently chaste a life. It reminds one of, say, Renly.

Add it all up and it appears to me that Rhaegar is not a particularly good candidate for father. There are better.

Ah! This is usually the fate that befalls all the men that get effortless female attention. And I'm not talking about the money/power/social status driven kind of attention. Rather the I'll follow you to hell and back kind of attention. Yep, they must be gay :rolleyes: Oh well, always liked my men confident enough to let their feminine side shine through LOL

[Ygrain]

BTW, Greenfyre, you still owe us your "better candidates" for Jon's father.

[Dorsai]

BTW, Greenfyre, you still owe us your "better candidates" for Jon's father.

Benjen Stark?

That of course if his mother is Ashara Dayne instead of Lyanna Stark

I'm most amazed that I haven't found this theory anywhere , though I read all the books between January and February , I had all of them but I have a huge backlog about everything :books, movies , videogames over 100 things to play, watch or read , as of now I'm rereading the Dune cycle.

I mean I'm new in Westeros , I don't know if this has already been ruled out long ago but:

-Benjen was at Harrenhall along with his brothers Brandon and Eddard and his sister Lyanna

-Benjen was the youngest among the Stark brothers but was older than Lyanna who was 15 at that time with Eddard being 20 , so he was in age

-Ashara danced and spoke with several men at the party including Brandon and ddard Stark (source WOIAF) but this wouldn't exclude Benjen among the several she spoke with.

-After all the events occurred after the tourney the killing of Brandon and his father (thus making Eddard Lord of Winterfell) and the consequent marriage between Catelyn Tully and Ned , Ashara went back to Starfall and found herself with child , Catelyn was with child also , it is not stated anywhere that Lyanna was too , her "bed of blood" could be due to wounds , illness, poison or anything other than giving birth to a child.

-Jon and Robb were of the same age meaning their mothers were pregnant roughly at the same time

-Eddard Stark killed Arthur Dayne or at least was part in his death and brough his sword Dawn to Ashara

-After that Ashara committed suicide

-Just after the war Benjen ,who was the Stark in Winterfell at that time , joined the Nightwatch with no explanation

these were the events

Ser Barristan believed that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter, but he wasn't there he doesn't know for sure could have been a lie told to him to explain why her child disappeared , or the stillborn daughter existed but was of Wylla who then nursed both Edric Dayne and Jon Snow

Eddard Stark was a man of honor the same as Robb who put the honor of Jayne Westerling above his own after he took her maidehead, it is unlikely that Eddard would have done differently with Ashara Dayne especially considering she was with his child and and he wasn't bethroted to anybody and had to marry Catelyn to honor an alliance but only after his brother died. It took time for all the events to occur , by then Ashara would have known she was pregnant .

So why Ned didn't marry Ashara and arrange the marriage with Benjen and Catelyn instead of marry her himself?

Also if Ashara felt dishonored why she suicided so late? It doesn't make sense , after almost a year of war she sould have know that not only Eddard was already married but also that Catelyn was pregnant, also it was very unlikely that Eddard would abandon Catelyn for her even if there weren't child involved.

So why then?

I believe that the event who triggered her sucidal was the death of his Brother at the hand of a Stark , this put blood between the families and made her marriage with Benjen impossible . Dishonor would have been acceptable if repaired by a later marriage with the man she loved , but not alone and with no perspective of a good marriage and without the protection of her brother , her grief for such a loss might have been unbearable for her.

Benjen took the Black soon after , he gave no explanation but the loss of Ashara of which he felt responsible made him willing to take no other woman and father no child , it is unclear though whether he though that Ashara had a stillborn daughter or he knew jon was his and that is why he convinced him to take the Black and Join him.

It is also possible that Eddard wanted to give him his child but had to say it was his when discovered that Benjen Joined the Nightwatch.

Prophecies

It is unclear if the Prince that was promised and the Azor Ahai are the same prophecy or are two different men or it is the same one.

I tend to believe they are two , the Prince the was promised must be blood of the dragon but the first Azor Ahai certainly was not a Targaryen so it is unclear why his reincarnation should be. Could have been from another family from Valyria though.

Anyway Ashara is a Dayne which family traits may vary from dark hair to pale blond and may have violet eyes , that means that the Daynes may have valyrian ancestors somewhere.

As I said this is just an Idea not copmpletely developed yet.

Would like to know your thoughts on this.

[Ygrain]

snip

Hello and welcome on the boards :-)

First and foremost: timelines issues. There are about two years between Harrenhall (281) and the end of Rebellion (283) when Jon was born (within a month since the Sack of KL). Lyanna disappeared about a year after Harrenhall and the Rebellion lasted for about a year, as well, meaning Jon was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion. At that time, Benjen was the Stark at Winterfell, hardly in condition to hang out with Ashara anywhere.

I agree that Eddard was most probably not the one who dishonoured Ashara; however, I don't think that Benjen was older than Lyanna - he is the "pup" in Meera's recollection of the tourney and when Bran sees him and Lyanna spar in the weirwood vision, he first thinks that he sees himself and Arya, i.e. older girl and younger boy, not the other way round.

Also "bed of blood" is a phrase consistently used as reference to childbirth throughout the series.

[MtnLion]

Benjen Stark?

Benjen was what, 10-12 years old at Harrenhal? :lmao:

<snip>

these were the events

Ser Barristan believed that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter, but he wasn't there he doesn't know for sure could have been a lie told to him to explain why her child disappeared , or the stillborn daughter existed but was of Wylla who then nursed both Edric Dayne and Jon Snow

Eddard Stark was a man of honor the same as Robb who put the honor of Jayne Westerling above his own after he took her maidehead, it is unlikely that Eddard would have done differently with Ashara Dayne especially considering she was with his child and and he wasn't bethroted to anybody and had to marry Catelyn to honor an alliance but only after his brother died. It took time for all the events to occur , by then Ashara would have known she was pregnant .

So why Ned didn't marry Ashara and arrange the marriage with Benjen and Catelyn instead of marry her himself?

Also if Ashara felt dishonored why she suicided so late? It doesn't make sense , after almost a year of war she sould have know that not only Eddard was already married but also that Catelyn was pregnant, also it was very unlikely that Eddard would abandon Catelyn for her even if there weren't child involved.

So why then?

I believe that the event who triggered her sucidal was the death of his Brother at the hand of a Stark , this put blood between the families and made her marriage with Benjen impossible . Dishonor would have been acceptable if repaired by a later marriage with the man she loved , but not alone and with no perspective of a good marriage and without the protection of her brother , her grief for such a loss might have been unbearable for her.

Benjen took the Black soon after , he gave no explanation but the loss of Ashara of which he felt responsible made him willing to take no other woman and father no child , it is unclear though whether he though that Ashara had a stillborn daughter or he knew jon was his and that is why he convinced him to take the Black and Join him.

It is also possible that Eddard wanted to give him his child but had to say it was his when discovered that Benjen Joined the Nightwatch.

Prophecies

It is unclear if the Prince that was promised and the Azor Ahai are the same prophecy or are two different men or it is the same one.

I tend to believe they are two , the Prince the was promised must be blood of the dragon but the first Azor Ahai certainly was not a Targaryen so it is unclear why his reincarnation should be. Could have been from another family from Valyria though.

Anyway Ashara is a Dayne which family traits may vary from dark hair to pale blond and may have violet eyes , that means that the Daynes may have valyrian ancestors somewhere.

As I said this is just an Idea not copmpletely developed yet.

Would like to know your thoughts on this.

This all kind of adds up to a single tale I like to tell. We know that the Tourney at Harrenhal was at least 21 months before the fall of King's Landing, and that Jon was born after the fall of King's Landing. So, if Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, resulting in a pregnancy she would have given birth some time before Brandon made his ride for King's Landing. Since Aegon was 12 months old at the fall of King's Landing (Rhaenys was 2 or 3), he was born before the war, too. It looks like Ashara and Elia could have been pregnant during the same time frame with delivery dates coinciding. If Elia is told that she can have no further pregnancies without the cost of her and her child's life, which she was, and she had given birth to another female (non-heir) would she be motivated to switch her child for a male (heir) that was available? If the male child was Ashara's, would she be motivated to participate in the subterfuge to give her child a chance to be raised as a king, not a bastard? I think this is what could have happened. (Of course the rapist would need to be Aerys, but that is logical, too. Who would want to confront mad Aerys with the crime, not Ashara, nor perhaps even Joanna.)

Details are important. We know that Rhaenys looked like her mother. Aegon appears to have had white hair, not much else was left for Ned to see. Chances are pretty good that Elia's second child would look like the first, and have its mother's looks. However, Ashara seems to favor the Targaryen looks, at least she had purple eyes.

Why did everyone assume that Ashara had killed herself, and not explore other possibilities? The simple answer would be that she was terribly despondent after Ned's visit. Ned returned Dawn to House Dayne, and likely had to tell Ashara about killing her brother at that tower that is no longer a tower. Ashara certainly is going to ask Ned about her BFF Elia, and Ned would need to relate what he had seen when he arrived in King's Landing, including the fate of the children. If Aegon was Ashara's son, how would she react? She could not let anyone know of her subterfuge with Elia, but she would be devastated.

We know that Jon is the "blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice that fills the air with sweetness." We know that Jon was conceived some months into the war, and that Rhaegar, along with Whent and Dayne had her during the war. Jon is a month or two younger than Robb, or else Catelyn would not think that Ned had cheated after the wedding when Robb was conceived. We know that Lyanna had given birth in her "bed of blood" shortly before Ned arrived at the tower. We also know that the Kingsguard died defending the king as is their vow at that tower.

Conclusion: Rhaegar and Lyanna had eloped and Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Jon has any inclination towards vying for the throne, nor will he want it if he is forced to take it.

[Dorsai]

Hello and welcome on the boards :-)

First and foremost: timelines issues. There are about two years between Harrenhall (281) and the end of Rebellion (283) when Jon was born (within a month since the Sack of KL). Lyanna disappeared about a year after Harrenhall and the Rebellion lasted for about a year, as well, meaning Jon was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion. At that time, Benjen was the Stark at Winterfell, hardly in condition to hang out with Ashara anywhere.

I agree that Eddard was most probably not the one who dishonoured Ashara; however, I don't think that Benjen was older than Lyanna - he is the "pup" in Meera's recollection of the tourney and when Bran sees him and Lyanna spar in the weirwood vision, he first thinks that he sees himself and Arya, i.e. older girl and younger boy, not the other way round.

Also "bed of blood" is a phrase consistently used as reference to childbirth throughout the series.

Thank you for welcoming me

As I said I didn't thought about this thoroughly

The pup was referred to the three wolves Brandon , Eddard and Benjen or so I thought so he was the younger of them also if he was that young being Lyanna 14 (16 at her death) he should have been 12 at best , if so he was 8 years younger than Ned ,thus when in Winterfell to recruit Jon he was 26 or 27 didn't look that young from the description of GRRM .

Ashara was also older than Arthur Dayne , so maybe older than Benjen too

Benjen was what, 10-12 years old at Harrenhal? :lmao:

The Wiki of Ice and Fire places him between Eddard and Lyanna too , I'm not the only one who saw him older than that

Besides there's no way to tell that Ashara become pregnant at Harrenhal , after being bedded just once, what if he continued to see her until his brother called him back to Winterfell?

Why didn't Ashara come to meet him even during the war?

Again if it is this impossible for Ashara to be the mother of Jon why is she still placed in the Wiki'

and Again the Daynes were fighting against Robert so how was Ned able to have a relationship with her who was deep in enemy territory?

Maybe Benjen might not be the father of Jon but might be the one who dishonored Ashara

[Dorsai]

delete this please