R+L=J v.42

[Alia of the knife]

I think it could be both, and quite correctly, in a time when traveling strangers shared the same beds at roadside Inns, the idea of "personal space" and privacy would be nonexistent, especially if your person and body were the property of the State, and especially in a place like the Red Keep where as a foreign Princess, most everyone is looking for something against you.

I think it's possible that in her desparation, (in this scenario), Elia might have attempted such a thing, and yes, Rhaegar would have definitely found out about it.

And yes, he wanted Lyanna out of pure love, and now, he had the perfect excuse to do the inexcusable, even for the Crown Prince, and take the woman he wanted, hoping to justify it later to the High Lords after the Rebellion, who needing their own Heirs to pass on their lands and Keeps, would certainly understand the predictament the Crown Prince was in.

[Sasha Steelsong]

No, I think not. Eddard didn't really want Jon to go to the wall, but he knew he couldn't take him with him to court either. (Which strangely enough might not be because of the whole bastard scenario in as much as it was that he wanted to keep Jon as far away from Robert as possible.) If Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna... though it may be unlikely that Robert ever caught on to something like that... its possible that others might have. Varyus, Maester Pycelle... who knows. King's Landing was just bad news bears for Jon, and Eddard knew that.

While I agree Ned wanted to keep Jon away from KL I think it had much more to do with everyone else in KL rather than Robert (who does not strike me as one to look beyond face value - if what he sees comports to the way he wants the world - this would also explain why he didn't think it was weird that all his kids were blond and looked nothing like him). No one in the North really knew Rhaegar and the one KG who might have recognized Rhaegar in Jon (Selmy) wasn't with Robert at Winterfell. KL however was full of people who not only knew Rhaegar but are also much more inquisitive than Robert.

[Lorgius]

Hi.

First i want to thank all of You for opening my eyes to the world of hypothesis an possibilities I never consider after first and even second read of saga. Never catch all those things, but now during very careful re-read I am seeing things I haven’t before.

Obviously it’s very long thread and I was able to check only a small part of it, despite all those hours of stolen work time while browsing thru various topics. Heresy is especially hard to keep up too. So I beg you’re forgiveness if I’ll go here supersonic with captain obvious stuff. I’m sure someone cover it somewhere but it is thing that convince me to the whole R+L=J theory in a first place. :leer: Moreover, in my translation (as you can see, English is not my first language) the part I quote below is much more clear and more precise than in original. As always, it may mean nothing or it may mean everything.

So it’s from GoT, two scenes, two chapters, not far away, one from another.

As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it.”

“Robert, you cannot mean this,”Ned protested.

The king was in no mood for more argument.

“Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”

That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to

her father.

“He doesn’t mean Lady, does he?”

She saw the truth on his face.

“No,”she said.“No,not Lady, Lady didn’t bite anybody, she’s good...”

“Lady wasn’t there,”Arya shouted angrily.“You leave her alone!”

“Stop them,”Sansa pleaded,“don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good I promise, I promise...”

She started to cry.

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the

room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother.

“Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please.”

The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife.

“Damn you,Cersei,”he said with loathing.

Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa’s grasp. All the weariness of the past four

days had returned to him.

“Do it yourself then, Robert,” he said in a voice cold and sharp assteel.“At least have the courage to do it yourself.”

Robert looked at Ned with flat, dead eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead.

Silence filled the hall.

and

Ned rose and paced the length of the room.“If the queen had a rolein this or, gods forbid, the king himself...no, I will not believe that.” Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

I bolded two things.

1)Similarities of Sansa and Lyanna plead. If you consider that instead life of a Lady we think about Lyanna baby. Part: “He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once” is translated (in my language) more like: ”He could still hear Sansa, she plead him exactly the same as Lyanna had plead him at one time”

That is what hit me the most and that’s why I compare it with English original. Like I said, it may mean nothing, but…

(On the side note, in other scene, with Tyrion and Jon conversation on wall when Tyrion tells “Most of my kin are bastards” it is translated with word more connected to “bastard child” than “bed person” ;) as in English is used more often, I presume.)

2) Roberts reaction or a lack of it to Ned begging. If he didn’t wanted to oppose to wife he didn’t love nor even like, then how would he react for news about Lyanna’s child, potential heir to the Iron Throne and more important, half-Targaryen baby of his beloved and idealized woman which may have or have not fell in love with hated Rhaegar. Even if he could overcome his own bitter prejudices, he would probably wash his hands and allow others to kill her baby. And that’s the reason in my opinion, that Ned did what he did to keep this promise. All that years…

Again , sorry for obvious obviousness (which ironically are not so obvious). :lol: Or not…

Cheers.

[Dr. Pepper]

<snip>

Again , sorry for obvious obviousness (which ironically are not so obvious). :lol: Or not…

Cheers.

Hi Lorgius and welcome to the forum!

You're absolutely right. It's not so obvious at all and the scene at Darry does indeed add to the body of thematic evidence used to support the theory. The scene and Ned remembering is so haunting, especially when you consider how it might have gone if the words from Sansa were exchanged with words from Lyanna and Lady was exchanged for baby boy.

There's a FAQ we try to insert at the beginning of most R+L=J thread. I'm wondering if it would be useful to expand it to include things such as this. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

[dragontamer]

The timeline drives me crazy, but if I have it right he married her when he's around 17/18, Elia is 19/20. At the time he meets Lyanna at Harrenhal he's at least twenty-three, but Rhaenys is around two, which means they've been married around five years, so it wasn't until three years into the marriage, a child was born to them, and it was a girl.

I can imagine, given her health, there were likely miscarriages, or no conceptions, so understandably, she might have been frightened and desperate.

Steffon Baratheon died in 278, only 3 years before Harrenhal and until his death we know that Rhaegar hadn't been married. According to this Rhaegar married Elia in 278-279, when he was 19-20, meaning that Elia got pregnant almost immediately after their marriage.

[Ygrain]

Welcome to the boards, Lorgius, and no need to apologize, we really don't expect newcomers to read all the previous threads :-)

Dr. Pepper, if you're going to expand your initial post, please do me a favour and include debunking the "Aerys sent KG to TOJ to gaurd Lyanna as a hostage", it's a personal peeve of mine to see people argue that Lyanna was a valuable hostage while not realizing that had she been a hostage, Aerys would have used her to end the Rebellion no later than after the Battle of the Bells, when he was clearly sane enough to realize that the Targs were getting royally screwed. Given his treatment of Elia, he was clearly able to recognize the value of a hostage and how to use them till the very end.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Steffon Baratheon died in 278, only 3 years before Harrenhal and until his death we know that Rhaegar hadn't been married. According to this Rhaegar married Elia in 278-279, when he was 19-20, meaning that Elia got pregnant almost immediately after their marriage.

I would add to this that we don't know Rhaenys' exact age- she's placed at 2 or 3 at the Sack. Which means she was probably born the year before HH and supports a marriage no later than 279 and a more of less immediate pregnancy. Considering that Aegon was a year old at the Sack, we have to assume that Elia had two children in two years ( which is actually quite normal spacing) but if she was exceedingly frail it's not a stretch to see that this could have pushed her health to the brink and her to desperation.

[Alia of the knife]

Steffon Baratheon died in 278, only 3 years before Harrenhal and until his death we know that Rhaegar hadn't been married. According to this Rhaegar married Elia in 278-279, when he was 19-20, meaning that Elia got pregnant almost immediately after their marriage.

Interesting.

I was going off Lyannas,(born 267) age at Harrenhal, which was 13/14, and the eight year gap between herself and Rhaegar,(born 259), which would have made him around 21/22 at Harrenhal, so if thats the case, then he and Elia were still "newlyweds."

The way people talked, I just assumed they were more established in their marriage, as well as the fact that if he can remember the night Aegon was conceived, they most likey weren't sleeping together often, so when they did, they got "lucky" unless they were guided by a Maester about the "right" time to do so.

[Harold II]

There is an angle I think to this regarding Jon being the heir to the independant kingdom in the north and the heir to the iron throne - that is, GRRM really likes borrowing grand plot elements from history.

(the wall-hadrians wall, white walkers-barbarians, valaria-roman empire, lanisters/starks-lancastrians/yorkists, Norman conquest- Danaries Targaryens pending invasion, Valaria/Ghiscari-Rome/Carthage, Valarian steel, even all the gods have parallels, black prince-dragon prince, all the targaryen family history and former british houses, Jon's "death"-caesar...)

I think Jon will end up a James I figure, uniting Scotland (the north and maybe even as "king beyond the wall") and England (the south) under a single monarch. Who he marries will also tie into this.

I think that is the key element which makes these books so enjoyable - it isn't true high fantasy, as a lot of it is grounded in history.

[Harold II]

There is also a theory that Bloodraven might know via the weirwood net - if Lyanna and Rhaegar performed a marriage ceremony in front of a weirwood (Isle of Faces would provide one), he would have access to the information (Mormont's raven saying "King" might be an indication of this), and by extension, Bran might learn, as well.

I like this idea. Bran is going to start meddling big time in the plot. The birds have been near screaming words at charicters "tree" "theon"... basically telling theon to go to a heart tree. Same with Jon who is "King" "Snow". They have even said "Jon Snow"

[FrozenFire3]

Following the episode titles release of a certain most anticipated series :leer: I went and re-read Jon-Ygritte chapters in ASOS.

Besides all the kissed by the (son of) fire tidibits and the parallels with R+L (a clash of duty and passion, ecstasy and guilt), I noticed a passage that eluded me at first reading (but probably not the 'veterans' on this forum) and gave me quite a startle :eek:

It is Styr, Magnar of Thenn, speaking:

"His heart may still be black."

He's obviously referring to Jon's true loyalties but I'm most interested in the author's peculiar word choice. It deliberately echoes Robert's line in AGOT:

"I drove that spike right through his black armor into his black heart"

If we add the apparently innocent exchange between Robb and Jon in AGOT:

"The next time I see you, you'll be all in black." Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color."

Well, like father like son: both black inside and out. I can't deny I got shivers...

[dragontamer]

Interesting.

I was going off Lyannas,(born 267) age at Harrenhal, which was 13/14, and the eight year gap between herself and Rhaegar,(born 259), which would have made him around 21/22 at Harrenhal, so if thats the case, then he and Elia were still "newlyweds."

The way people talked, I just assumed they were more established in their marriage, as well as the fact that if he can remember the night Aegon was conceived, they most likey weren't sleeping together often, so when they did, they got "lucky" unless they were guided by a Maester about the "right" time to do so.

Since they couldn’t have been married for more than 3 years at Harrenhal and they already had one child and Elia was probably pregnant at the tourney or got pregnant soon after I assume there was no problem with her health and most likely they had often intimate relations. Rhaegar, after all, was a man; and Elia was quiet beautiful, even if he didn’t love her, he liked her and probably desired her also.

As to how he knew the night of Aegon’s conception I guess it’s weird but it’s not the first time we see this. Daenerys also claimed to have known the night Rhaego was conceived and she and Drogo certainly had sex almost every day.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Hi Lorgius and welcome to the forum!

You're absolutely right. It's not so obvious at all and the scene at Darry does indeed add to the body of thematic evidence used to support the theory. The scene and Ned remembering is so haunting, especially when you consider how it might have gone if the words from Sansa were exchanged with words from Lyanna and Lady was exchanged for baby boy.

There's a FAQ we try to insert at the beginning of most R+L=J thread. I'm wondering if it would be useful to expand it to include things such as this. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Good idea,

I ´ve also been writing on a updated version of the FAQ, but since I am very busy I didn´t have time to finish it.

I added the "Why didn´t Ned tell Catelyn" and the "Who knows R+L" question. These questions appear very often and espacially the last one gets discussed in (nearly) every thread. It would also be nice to add some basic information about the timeline.

Welcome to the boards, Lorgius, and no need to apologize, we really don't expect newcomers to read all the previous threads :-)

Dr. Pepper, if you're going to expand your initial post, please do me a favour and include debunking the "Aerys sent KG to TOJ to gaurd Lyanna as a hostage", it's a personal peeve of mine to see people argue that Lyanna was a valuable hostage while not realizing that had she been a hostage, Aerys would have used her to end the Rebellion no later than after the Battle of the Bells, when he was clearly sane enough to realize that the Targs were getting royally screwed. Given his treatment of Elia, he was clearly able to recognize the value of a hostage and how to use them till the very end.

:agree:

[Ygrain]

BTW, I've just realized: even if the KG did originally stay on Aerys' order, it makes no difference - at the end of the day, they would STILL be favouring the orders of a dead king over the primary duty to protect the living one.

/theory busted/

QDE.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Since they couldn’t have been married for more than 3 years at Harrenhal and they already had one child and Elia was probably pregnant at the tourney or got pregnant soon after I assume there was no problem with her health and most likely they had often intimate relations. Rhaegar, after all, was a man; and Elia was quiet beautiful, even if he didn’t love her, he liked her and probably desired her also.

As to how he knew the night of Aegon’s conception I guess it’s weird but it’s not the first time we see this. Daenerys also claimed to have known the night Rhaego was conceived and she and Drogo certainly had sex almost every day.

While I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying about the timeline, a couple of points:

Being frail doesn't necessarily prevent one from conceiving, but the rigors of pregnancy can certainly exacerbate existing health problems. We know there were problems with Elia's health. We are told more than once that she was frail "since childhood", that she was bedridden for six months after Rhaenys' birth and delivering "Aegon" nearly killed her. In Jon Con's POV (The Griffin Reborn, ch 61 ADWD), we have this:

"Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward."

Also, we are given no reason to believe she was "quite beautiful" or that Rhaegar felt anything other than "fond" of her. Ser Barristan remembers her as

"good and gentle... though compared to Ashara Dayne the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab."

and tells Dany

"Princess Elia was a good woman...kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her."

Kevan Lannister remembers how lovely the maid Cersei had been in the ADWD epilogue and muses that

"with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark"

This train of thought implies that Elia came up far short of both Cersei and Lyanna.

In conclusion I think that it's reasonable to envision a scenario where Rhaegar, an honorable prince, though fond of the wife that was chosen for him never viewed their relations as anything other than duty. He got her pregnant twice, which is reasonable in the time frame of their marriage. I agree that her second pregnancy most likely began prior to Harrenhal, but whether it resulted in a child who died in the Sack, a child who was spirited away to Essos, or a still born daughter it was clearly going to be her last. Rhaegar's sense of duty would have made the necessity of fathering a son with another woman clear to him, which is another thing I think we agree on.

[Alia of the knife]

Since they couldn’t have been married for more than 3 years at Harrenhal and they already had one child and Elia was probably pregnant at the tourney or got pregnant soon after I assume there was no problem with her health and most likely they had often intimate relations. Rhaegar, after all, was a man; and Elia was quiet beautiful, even if he didn’t love her, he liked her and probably desired her also.

As to how he knew the night of Aegon’s conception I guess it’s weird but it’s not the first time we see this. Daenerys also claimed to have known the night Rhaego was conceived and she and Drogo certainly had sex almost every day.

On Elias Health:

"A bride for our bright Prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegars wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year," (so thats at least six months out of the assumed three-year marriage), "and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the Maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward."

On their marriage: (A conversation between Dany and Selmy).

"And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?"

"Her duty." The word felt cold upon her tongue. "You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?" (a direct question to Selmy on their marriage).

The old Knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the Prince was very fond of her."

"Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps."

From these two examples, I think we see plenty of "bread crumbs" that lead us to the conclusion of whats unspoken here.

While Rhaegar and Elias marriage was an amicable arrangement, and Rhaegar seems to be a honorable man who would like to do the right thing, we're being told that it was a marriage of duty and politics, but not love, and more than that, there were stressers on the marriage, (i.e., her health).

And now, with your timeline, we also see they were not married that long, so therefore, the strong bonds that come over time with one another as in the case of Ned and Cat where they grew to love each other, are not there, because almost soon after, he meets Lyanna.

And before we assume Jon is not a good source because of his feelings for Rhaegar, I actually didn't get the sense that his comment about Elia not being worthy of Rhaegar was done out of "snark."

In the normal course of events for a Nobleman in Westeros, even JonCon, who is gay, would have been expected to marry and father heirs to his familys birthright and heritage.

Gay, or not, he has a duty to perpetuate the line, even if he only goes to his wifes bed once a year. After an heir or two, or three, then never again afterwards.

So, I felt his "unworthy" comment had as much to to do with the reality of the question of Elias ability to fulfill those duties as much as romantic jealousy, though that may have been a small factor.

And Selmy on several occasions doesn't want to tell Dany the full truth of things. You can tell by his hesitations that he is still holding some information back.

While Selmy still held Rhaegar in high regard, it was the issue of Rhaegars love of Lyanna that he comes the closest to being critical of him, using the analogy of "mud" as duty, and comparing love to a slow poison.

Her Looks:

Meera said she was fair, and Cersei describes her as "flat chested with black eyes," and while that WAS snarky, (because Elia was at least handsome), Cersei wasn't likely lying, because she noticed womens looks. She also thinks had she been married to Rhaegar, he'd never look twice at the wolf girl.

And Selmy says Ashara made Elia look like a kitchen drab, but then, that could have been because Ashara was SO beautiful, even the Dornish Princess couldn't compare.

Even Viserys claims that had Dany been born earlier, Rhaegar would never have run after Lyanna.

My personal sense is that Rhaegar was not motivated by looks alone, but also what was within, hence his fondness of Elia, because he recognized her goodness, as he likely recognized Lyannas goodness over her beauty though I'm sure he wasn't blind to it.

I have a theory that Rhaegar was as much the reason Cersei was turned down as Aerys, and think when they looked into each others eyes at Casterly Rock, Cersei rightly saw sorrow, but Rhaegar saw corruption, and of course the irony is that Cersei goes through her entire life thinking it was the fault of fate, or others that Rhaegar was denied her.

Agreed that Elia was most likely already pregnant at Harrenhal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti Elia. Her death as well as Rhaenys and Aegon, is certainly one of the most heinous outside Robbs and Cats, but I think it highly likely that there was also stress on the marriage despite their personal, positive rapport and amicability.

[Alia of the knife]

While I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying about the timeline, a couple of points:

Being frail doesn't necessarily prevent one from conceiving, but the rigors of pregnancy can certainly exacerbate existing health problems. We know there were problems with Elia's health. We are told more than once that she was frail "since childhood", that she was bedridden for six months after Rhaenys' birth and delivering "Aegon" nearly killed her. In Jon Con's POV (The Griffin Reborn, ch 61 ADWD), we have this:

Also, we are given no reason to believe she was "quite beautiful" or that Rhaegar felt anything other than "fond" of her. Ser Barristan remembers her as

and tells Dany

Kevan Lannister remembers how lovely the maid Cersei had been in the ADWD epilogue and muses that

This train of thought implies that Elia came up far short of both Cersei and Lyanna.

In conclusion I think that it's reasonable to envision a scenario where Rhaegar, an honorable prince, though fond of the wife that was chosen for him never viewed their relations as anything other than duty. He got her pregnant twice, which is reasonable in the time frame of their marriage. I agree that her second pregnancy most likely began prior to Harrenhal, but whether it resulted in a child who died in the Sack, a child who was spirited away to Essos, or a still born daughter it was clearly going to be her last. Rhaegar's sense of duty would have made the necessity of fathering a son with another woman clear to him, which is another thing I think we agree on.

I think the fact that a Lannister strays from the "party line" and even acknowledges Lyannas "wild beauty" is telling, though he quickly remembers his loyalties.

And I forsee Arya blooming into a very beautiful girl indeed. If Cersei ever sees an adult Arya, she will likely lose her mind.

[Ser Leftwich]

Agreed that Elia was most likely already pregnant at Harrenhal.

Elia would have to have been very recently pregnant. With her health and the aftermath of the Rhaenys pregnancy, if Aerys and/or Rhaegar knew she was pregnant, they would not have let her travel for the tourney. They still needed a son of Rhaegar.

[Trepea]

Does anyone know if the Martel heritage connects with the Targaryen heritage in any way?

Coming at it from a genetic perspective, we know (because of both Jon Snow/Targaryen and all of Roberts bastards) that the gene for Black hair is dominant to Blonde or Silver hair, yet at the same time Aegon had silver hair.

In order for that to happen Elia Martel had to have had a parent or grandparent who was either a targaryen or a blackfyre. Thoughts? (I am of course assuming that Martin knows how genetics works, which he does based on Roberts bastards all looking like him, since Robert has nothing but dominant genes.)

[Alia of the knife]

Elia would have to have been very recently pregnant. With her health and the aftermath of the Rhaenys pregnancy, if Aerys and/or Rhaegar knew she was pregnant, they would not have let her travel for the tourney. They still needed a son of Rhaegar.

I think thats what is so confounding about the timeline, and the current timeline we're speaking of, that is Rhaegar and Elia having only been married for the three years, or so.

At least a year-and-a-half, Elia is out of commission.

The nine months of the year she is pregnant, then the six months she is bed ridden, as well as the amount of time after that bed rest that she is then ready for intimacy again.

It's still possible I suppose, but I guess given all these circumstances, I assumed they were married a little longer, as in Rhaegar marrying a little earlier.

Does anyone know if the Martel heritage connects with the Targaryen heritage in any way?

Coming at it from a genetic perspective, we know (because of both Jon Snow/Targaryen and all of Roberts bastards) that the gene for Black hair is dominant to Blonde or Silver hair, yet at the same time Aegon had silver hair.

In order for that to happen Elia Martel had to have had a parent or grandparent who was either a targaryen or a blackfyre. Thoughts? (I am of course assuming that Martin knows how genetics works, which he does based on Roberts bastards all looking like him, since Robert has nothing but dominant genes.)

In order to secure Dorne, the Targaryens married the Martells, so yes, the Martells do have a little "blood of the dragon" in them, but don't pin Martin down on genetics. :)