R+L=J v.42

[Dayne of Starfall]

Has anyone ever proposed BL=J?

B meaning King Bob.

Its also largely implied that Lyanna had no desire to marry Robert, and likely did not love him, aside for maybe the way a sister love's her brother's best friend.

[Dayne of Starfall]

If r+l=j is true which I think it is, doesn't anyone else feel that Ned stark was kinda being a dick when he let Jon go to the nw. Couldn't Ned find a house that was trying to find some favor with the Starks and married Jon off to them instead of sending him to the wall. I get why it happen for the purpose of the story but still.

No, I think not. Eddard didn't really want Jon to go to the wall, but he knew he couldn't take him with him to court either. (Which strangely enough might not be because of the whole bastard scenario in as much as it was that he wanted to keep Jon as far away from Robert as possible.) If Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna... though it may be unlikely that Robert ever caught on to something like that... its possible that others might have. Varyus, Maester Pycelle... who knows. King's Landing was just bad news bears for Jon, and Eddard knew that.

(Part of me wonders if 'not' seating his bastard in the presence of the King was truly done so much because of the insult they thought it would insue, or if it was something else. After all... Robert saw one of his own bastards (the one that Stannis had taken care of) on rare occasions, and really probably wouldn't have given a damn about what his best friend Honorable Ned would do. I think keeping Jon unseated when the King was in Winterfell was Eddard's strategic attempts to keep Jon away from Robert, or Cercei, who hated Lyanna much more than she ever hated Robert. Lyanna stole the eyes away of her King... both Kings, that is... both the one she hated, and never wanted to end up with (Robert) and the one she dreamed she would marry some day, who was more beautiful than even her brother Jaime (Rhaegar). Granted, Ned didn't probably know that... but...

Then there was the issue with his wife. Ned knew she had no love for Jon. She pleaded for him to go to the Wall and tried to talk sense into Ned about the issue. Finally, Ned saw that it was best. It kept Jon the furthest away from the influences that could ultimately be his undoing... and gave him a shot at success... I think given the rough life that Jon has lived as a bastard, Ned also knew it would be unfair to deny him his wish to go to the Wall. Jon's destiny would have to be in the hands of Jon at this point... because no matter what happened, Jon would be in a place where Eddard could not keep him safe. This was the truth of any possible scenario... the Wall was the best chance, Jon got.

[Ser Leftwich]

The idea that there was some staff/servants at the ToJ makes sense and is a theory I agree with, I just had a strange idea about the answer to the "they" that found Ned.

Was the "they" that found Ned as simple as Howland and the baby Howland was holding?

[Trepea]

To those arguing Ned didn't know Reagar was the father: If Jon is lyanna's son, then who could be the father other then Reagar (who it is clear from other passages loved Lyanna).

Also, if Jon isn't a targaryen, wouldn't it make more sense for Ned to claim Jon as Lyanna's son, rather then a bastard. I have a feeling Robert wouldn't want to kill the son of the women he loved so much, unless it had anything to do with Reagar.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't see how the nw would be safer then a marriage to a lesser lords house. Don't you take the oath of the nw when they think you are ready and not at a certain age so how would Ned know when Jon would take his vows. Plus Ned couldn't have know that Jon would have be assigned as the steward to The Lord commander instead of a ranger. If Ned's promise to his sister was to keep Jon safe wouldn't it be easier to marry him off to someone not important then sending him off to the wall to wildlings

Yes but from Ned's POV Jon at the wall put's him beyond the reach of kings and takes away any claim he might have to the throne, so if the day ever came when the truth about Jon was somehow revealed Robert would not be able to touch him just like he's not able to touch Maester Aemon, But if Jon just simply married a lesser lords daughter and lived peaceful somewhere in Westeros and truth was then revealed, the seven gods wouldn't be enough to save Jon from Robert's wrath and Ned knew this. I don't think a day went by that Ned wasn't worried the truth would somehow get revealed.

[lcd52]

No, I think not. Eddard didn't really want Jon to go to the wall, but he knew he couldn't take him with him to court either. (Which strangely enough might not be because of the whole bastard scenario in as much as it was that he wanted to keep Jon as far away from Robert as possible.) If Jon looks like Arya, and Arya looks like Lyanna... though it may be unlikely that Robert ever caught on to something like that... its possible that others might have. Varyus, Maester Pycelle... who knows. King's Landing was just bad news bears for Jon, and Eddard knew that.

I doubt that, All of Robert's bastards looked like him; why would he be surprised that Ned's bastard looked "more like him than any of the trueborn sons" Catelyn had borne him?

Then there was the issue with his wife. Ned knew she had no love for Jon. She pleaded for him to go to the Wall and tried to talk sense into Ned about the issue.

Actually, Catelyn kept her mouth shut about the Wall. She just told Ned to get his bastard out of her castle.

Finally, Ned saw that it was best. It kept Jon the furthest away from the influences that could ultimately be his undoing... and gave him a shot at success... I think given the rough life that Jon has lived as a bastard, Ned also knew it would be unfair to deny him his wish to go to the Wall.

I've never been sure it WAS Jon's wish to go to the Wall. When he asked his uncle Benjen, he was TOTALLY DRUNK on Summerwine. When he sobered up, he may have still been sure he never wanted to father a bastard; but, he may very well have changed his mind about enlisting. For all WE know, when Benjen spoke to Maester Luwin about Jon asking to join the Night's Watch he MAY have said, "since my brother is leaving Jon behind, maybe you should see if you can foster him somewhere he can see a little more of the world. White Harbor, perhaps?" Luwin's first duty was to keep peace between the Lord and Lady and getting Jon OUT of a position to threaten her TrueBorn children should have her climbing the towers and dancing the dance of joy on the turretts.

Maybe having something he'd done in his cups come back to haunt him was WHY he kept getting angrier as the time to leave approached (per Bran). I think he knew he was being thrown away.

It was Lord Mormont who convinced Jon that Lord Eddard had an important reason for sending him to the Watch, so, Jon promised he wouldn't run again and set about embracing the life he had there. Lord Mormont couldn't have known Eddard was getting Jon out of harm's (Catelyn's) way . Eddard only knew he couldn't protect him any more because, like Jon Arryn, he'd be serving in Kings Landing for the rest of his life.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

i don't know if it has been pointed out, but i'm just reading the GGRM interview with asshai.com and there is one very interesting part in there:

He is talking about how small the Stark family compared to lets say the Lannisters is.

"It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either."

The full interview can be found here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

He talks about Neds 3 siblings:

-Brandon died before he had sons (might there be a little Brandine somewhere? ;) )

-Lyanna is dead

-Benjen is in the NW therefore has no descendants

He says specifically that Brandon (no sons) and Benjen have no children, but Is relatively vague on Lyanna

It seems like a very careful choice of words, implying that Lyanna could very well have children ;)

[Jon Icefyre]

i don't know if it has been pointed out, but i'm just reading the GGRM interview with asshai.com and there is one very interesting part in there:

He is talking about how small the Stark family compared to lets say the Lannisters is.

"It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either."

The full interview can be found here: http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

He talks about Neds 3 siblings:

-Brandon died before he had sons (might there be a little Brandine somewhere? ;) )

-Lyanna is dead

-Benjen is in the NW therefore has no descendants

He says specifically that Brandon (no sons) and Benjen have no children, but Is relatively vague on Lyanna

It seems like a very careful choice of words, implying that Lyanna could very well have children ;)

True GRRM doesn't lie in interviews so if R+L=J is indeed true he can't really confirm or deny that Lyanna died without children now can he?

[Alia of the knife]

i don't know if it has been pointed out, but i'm just reading the GGRM interview with asshai.com and there is one very interesting part in there:

He is talking about how small the Stark family compared to lets say the Lannisters is.

"It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either."

The full interview can be found here: http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

He talks about Neds 3 siblings:

-Brandon died before he had sons (might there be a little Brandine somewhere? ;) )

-Lyanna is dead

-Benjen is in the NW therefore has no descendants

He says specifically that Brandon (no sons) and Benjen have no children, but Is relatively vague on Lyanna

It seems like a very careful choice of words, implying that Lyanna could very well have children ;)

Yes, when Martin parces his words, that means he's answering without answering. :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Small thought that I had...

Rhaegar was a little bit obsessed with that 'the dragon has three heads' prophecy, right? (And that is putting it mildly.)

He already had two children by his (first) wife, so in his mind he needed another one and that's why he kidnapped 'someone' to have another child with him, and it was Lyanna because he fell in love with her/because she was of the North ('ice')/...

So, why kidnap someone as highborn as Lyanna, (possibly marry her,) only to have *one* child with her, because he only needed three. Did that mean he had a sense of foreboding that he was only going to have one child tops with her, that he and/or she would not be around too much longer after that?

Though he did have plans for court after things had calmed down/he threw his father off the throne... Was he going to take Lyanna with him and have more children? And what about Elia?

[Ygrain]

Small thought that I had...

Rhaegar was a little bit obsessed with that 'the dragon has three heads' prophecy, right? (And that is putting it mildly.)

He already had two children by his (first) wife, so in his mind he needed another one and that's why he kidnapped 'someone' to have another child with him, and it was Lyanna because he fell in love with her/because she was of the North ('ice')/...

So, why kidnap someone as highborn as Lyanna, (possibly marry her,) only to have *one* child with her, because he only needed three. Did that mean he had a sense of foreboding that he was only going to have one child tops with her, that he and/or she would not be around too much longer after that?

Though he did have plans for court after things had calmed down/he threw his father off the throne... Was he going to take Lyanna with him and have more children? And what about Elia?

Well, we do not know if any kidnapping happened in the first place - if Lyanna reciprocated his feelings, they might have eloped, or the kidnapping may have been staged to protect her honour.

Also, given the action of the three KG at ToJ as well as accounts of Rhaegar and Lyanna as honourable individuals, there is a theory that Rhaegar took further inspiration from Aegon and he and Lyanna entered polygamous marriage. It would seem then that the two of them eloped and intended to stay in hiding until the worst shitstorm was over and possibly also till Lyanna got pregnant, after which they would come out and ask forgiveness instead of permission.

[Alia of the knife]

Small thought that I had...

Rhaegar was a little bit obsessed with that 'the dragon has three heads' prophecy, right? (And that is putting it mildly.)

He already had two children by his (first) wife, so in his mind he needed another one and that's why he kidnapped 'someone' to have another child with him, and it was Lyanna because he fell in love with her/because she was of the North ('ice')/...

So, why kidnap someone as highborn as Lyanna, (possibly marry her,) only to have *one* child with her, because he only needed three. Did that mean he had a sense of foreboding that he was only going to have one child tops with her, that he and/or she would not be around too much longer after that?

Though he did have plans for court after things had calmed down/he threw his father off the throne... Was he going to take Lyanna with him and have more children? And what about Elia?

It's also possible that Elias health was deteriorating.

Tywin kept Cersei at Court waiting for Elia to die in childbirth, but perhaps something beyond childbirth was going regarding her health. If thats the case, and it was a political marriage where they had become fond of each other, perhaps Elia blessed his pursuing Lyanna.

Given Lyannas demonstration of kindness towards Howland Reed, perhaps Elia would be more comfortable leaving her children in the care of a Step Mother like Lyanna, (if she was slowly dying), rather than one like Cersei, where she had already witnessed Cersei's cruelty toward her brother, Tyrion.

Beyond that possible scenario, it's going to be complicated to read if we are to consider Elias feelings, because what Rhaegar can do, (polygamy), is a very different matter than how Elia might feel about it, or if she was even given a choice in the matter.

And yes, I imagine that Rhaegar and Lyanna would have more children together for as long as she was able, or until he gave her permission to drink "the tea."

[Bushido]

I think that calling Rhaegar obsessed with the prophecy could be a bit of a presumption, at this point.

Yes, he is self-fulfilling prophecy, but what we have seen is the action of an able man, even strategist when it comes to ruling the realm - he acknowledged early on the biggest threat for his people, which shows that he considers ruling his duty and not his right.

But,would it be within his personality scope to be obsessed and act out of zealous faith and not consideration?

To compare him with Cersei, who is an active part in her prophecy, he'd be a passive one. Yes, he became a warrior but he didn't marched to Wall, took the vow and waited.

[Ygrain]

As Lady Gwynhyfvar mentioned the crackpot about the baby switch at Aegon's birth, i.e. Aegon was not Rhaegar's son, I've come with another crackpot: if this really happened and Rhaegar later found out, he would have had a supreme reason to turn to Lyanna ASAP, as he suddenly didn't have any PTWP.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

As Lady Gwynhyfvar mentioned the crackpot about the baby switch at Aegon's birth, i.e. Aegon was not Rhaegar's son, I've come with another crackpot: if this really happened and Rhaegar later found out, he would have had a supreme reason to turn to Lyanna ASAP, as he suddenly didn't have any PTWP.

That is a very interesting point! I never considered that Rhaegar may have found out about the switch...

Considering all of the implications, I'm going to take some time to puzzle this out, but this could definitely resolve some lingering questions about Rhaegar's motivations as far as Elia and Lyanna are concerned.

[Le Cygne]

It's also possible that Elias health was deteriorating.

Tywin kept Cersei at Court waiting for Elia to die in childbirth, but perhaps something beyond childbirth was going regarding her health.

She seemed so frail, even before childbirth:

Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

[Alia of the knife]

That is a very interesting point! I never considered that Rhaegar may have found out about the switch...

Considering all of the implications, I'm going to take some time to puzzle this out, but this could definitely resolve some lingering questions about Rhaegar's motivations as far as Elia and Lyanna are concerned.

Well, it would be one factor in settling the situation between Elia and Lyanna.

While I do believe Rhaegar married Lyanna, I personally think that the polygamy thing was short term, and he most likely planned to set Elia aside.

I don't see a "Big Love" scenario.

And I think if he cared at all for Elia, he would free her to make her own life, finding her own love and happiness since their union, while amicable, was one of duty and politics.

But, in this scenario, it would give Rhaegar every reason to rightly set her aside, and if it had been any other Prince, she might actually lose her life if she was complicit in such a plot.

Elia was known for her wit, and it may not mean merely her good humor. Just because she was frail in body does not mean she was frail in mind, and most likely used her "wits" against any enemy at Court.

The timeline drives me crazy, but if I have it right he married her when he's around 17/18, Elia is 19/20. At the time he meets Lyanna at Harrenhal he's at least twenty-three, but Rhaenys is around two, which means they've been married around five years, so it wasn't until three years into the marriage, a child was born to them, and it was a girl.

I can imagine, given her health, there were likely miscarriages, or no conceptions, so understandably, she might have been frightened and desperate.

She seemed so frail, even before childbirth:

Yes, very true, so not outside the possibility she could be dying due to further deterioration in her health.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well, it would be one factor in settling the situation between Elia and Lyanna.

While I do believe Rhaegar married Lyanna, I personally think that the polygamy thing was short term, and he most likely planned to set Elia aside.

I don't see a "Big Love" scenario.

And I think if he cared at all for Elia, he would free her to make her own life, finding her own love and happiness since their union, while amicable, was one of duty and politics.

But, in this scenario, it would give Rhaegar every reason to rightly set her aside, and if it had been any other Prince, she might actually lose her life if she was complicit in such a plot.

Elia was known for her wit, and it may not mean merely her good humor. Just because she was frail in body does not mean she was frail in mind, and most likely used her "wits" against any enemy at Court.

The timeline drives me crazy, but if I have it right he married her when he's around 17/18, Elia is 19/20. At the time he meets Lyanna at Harrenhal he's at least twenty-three, but Rhaenys is around two, which means they've been married around five years, so it wasn't until three years into the marriage, a child was born to them, and it was a girl.

I can imagine, given her health, there were likely miscarriages, or no conceptions, so understandably, she might have been frightened and desperate.

Yes, very true, so not outside the possibility she could be dying due to further deterioration in her health.

You've nicely summarized many of the things I was mulling over and trying to get straight :)

If Rhaegar knew the truth about "Aegon" and Elia was in failing health (ie dying) he may have chosen to avoid disgracing her and causing a confrontation with Dorne by waiting out the situation.

BUT- driven by the need for his prince he made the bizarre decision to take Lyanna to the ToJ and marry her immediately. If we introduce the possibility that Rickard was somehow aware of the situation (supported by the fact that he seems to have never demanded his daughter back, and only went to KL to answer for his son) but Brandon was not, we get a tidy answer to many of the things that puzzle us here. Brandon was influenced by an inflammatory message he received following Lyanna's disappearance (the hand of LF?) and reacted in the way we would expect a hotheaded young man to act. In the meantime, Rickard had time to tell Ned (in person? by message?) the truth of the matter, which explains why Ned never seems to have negative thoughts about Rhaegar.

Hmm...

[Ser Leftwich]

The timeline drives me crazy, but if I have it right he married her when he's around 17/18, Elia is 19/20. At the time he meets Lyanna at Harrenhal he's at least twenty-three, but Rhaenys is around two, which means they've been married around five years, so it wasn't until three years into the marriage, a child was born to them, and it was a girl.

Rhaegar's age at marriage is closer to 18/19 and he was at most 22 at the ToH. That being said, your point of Elia not successfully having a child ASAP after they were married is very likely correct.

[Mladen]

As Lady Gwynhyfvar mentioned the crackpot about the baby switch at Aegon's birth, i.e. Aegon was not Rhaegar's son, I've come with another crackpot: if this really happened and Rhaegar later found out, he would have had a supreme reason to turn to Lyanna ASAP, as he suddenly didn't have any PTWP.

I can`t see Aegon being switched, I mean with all those maesters, one of the reason I abandoned my theory of Aegon being Lyanna`s instead of Elia`s son(long story) is that switching theory wouldn`t work in red Keep. What I think Rhaegar wanted with Lyanna was pure love, and they are tragic because of that.