R+L=J v.42

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think that this line might be a little misleading. While it is apparent that Rhaegar developed some respect for Lady Lyanna, it is not even suggested that they had a romantic relationship before Aegon was born. It is only after Elia is declared to be unfit for further pregnancies that Rhaegar decides that he must find another.

I agree, but think she caught his eye there in the sense of "wow! that is one interesting young lady." Not romance, but probably what planted the seed for it.

[Ygrain]

I think that this line might be a little misleading. While it is apparent that Rhaegar developed some respect for Lady Lyanna, it is not even suggested that they had a romantic relationship before Aegon was born. It is only after Elia is declared to be unfit for further pregnancies that Rhaegar decides that he must find another.

A little correction: given the scant information we have, Rhaegar's actions in between Harrenhall and Aegon's birth are one big mystery. He did act on whatever drove him only after Aegon's birth, but what he felt or thought prior, or what Lyanna did, cannot be established for now.

[Jon Icefyre]

Also I realize its definitely quite possible that Rhaegar had only developed respect for Lyanna at that point but when you think about it, for Rhaegar to do something so bold as to publicly insult his wife by naming Lyanna QoLaB even though he hadn't developed any romantic feelings for Lyanna at that point is kind of hard to believe in my opinion. I just can't see Rhaegar making that bold of a move dishonoring his wife in the process for someone at that point that he just purely respected, to me it seems he was obviously feeling some sort of romantic link between them.

[lcd52]

Also I realize its definitely quite possible that Rhaegar had only developed respect for Lyanna at that point but when you think about it, for Rhaegar to do something so bold as to publicly insult his wife by naming Lyanna QoLaB even though he hadn't developed any romantic feelings for Lyanna at that point is kind of hard to believe in my opinion. I just can't see Rhaegar making that bold of a move dishonoring his wife in the process for someone at that point that he just purely respected, to me it seems he was obviously feeling some sort of romantic link between them.

From Meera's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree: If Lyanna were that knight, and if Rhaegar discovered Benjen helping her to arm the morning after her victory, then Knowing his father had declared her his enemy, how could he NOT prevent her from competing? He would certainly have to prevent her from being unmasked. He was a knight.

That day, he entered the lists himself and defeated all comers. Maybe giving her the crown was his acknowledgement that she would have won it for herself had she not submitted to the command of the Prince. Or maybe her reward for doing so.

It was certainly taken as an insult to his wife; but, it may in fact have had nothing to do with Elia and everything to do with Aerys.

[Alia of the knife]

Also I realize its definitely quite possible that Rhaegar had only developed respect for Lyanna at that point but when you think about it, for Rhaegar to do something so bold as to publicly insult his wife by naming Lyanna QoLaB even

though he hadn't developed any romantic feelings for Lyanna at that point is kind of hard to believe in my opinion. I just can't see Rhaegar making that bold of a move dishonoring his wife in the process for someone at that point that he just purely respected, to me it seems he was obviously feeling some sort of romantic link between them.

I have always found that hard to believe considering there were so many other ways to honor her down to creating a new tradition of honoring a young female without the romantic symbolism of the current tradition.

He could have crowned her "Miss Westeros," or "Miss Best All Round."

And theres also honoring her descreetly with a gift. I don't get the impression that Lyanna was looking for public attention, and not to mention this brings her AERY'S attention.

To me, and remembering Jorahs victory and why, I think he did do it for love.

[Jon Icefyre]

From Meera's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree: If Lyanna were that knight, and if Rhaegar discovered Benjen helping her to arm the morning after her victory, then Knowing his father had declared her his enemy, how could he NOT prevent her from competing? He would certainly have to prevent her from being unmasked. He was a knight.

That day, he entered the lists himself and defeated all comers. Maybe giving her the crown was his acknowledgement that she would have won it for herself had she not submitted to the command of the Prince. Or maybe her reward for doing so.

It was certainly taken as an insult to his wife; but, it may in fact have had nothing to do with Elia and everything to do with Aerys.

Either way to Rhaegar it obviously had nothing to do with Elia since he passed over her that's my point. For a man like Rhaegar to not realize or realize and not care that naming Lyanna QoLaB would be taken by the public as a terrible insult to his wife suggests something more that just simple respect or acknowledgement of Lyanna. What your saying could very well be true but my point is Rhaegar's developing romantic feelings for Lyanna definitely influenced his decision to crown her as well in my opinion.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree, but think she caught his eye there in the sense of "wow! that is one interesting young lady." Not romance, but probably what planted the seed for it.

I would actually not be surprised to find out that Rhaegar may have been around when Lyanna squared off with the Squires, and saw it all.:)

[UVA]

I would actually not be surprised to find out that Rhaegar may have been around when Lyanna squared off with the Squires, and saw it all. :)

That and he may have heard someone like Benjen boasting about what an excellent horsewoman Lyanna was, and knowing that success in the joust was principally based on good horsemanship, Rhaegar may have figured it out when watching the field.

[snip] my point is Rhaegar's developing romantic feelings for Lyanna definitely influenced his decision to crown her as well in my opinion.

I tend to think this is the case too. That the crowning of Lyanna was more than just Rhaegar's acknowledgement of her skills, something which she could not publicly own up to, but also an indication of a romantic interest. It seems that he didn't act on these feelings until after Aegon's birth and the realization that any future pregnancies would put Ellia's life in mortal danger. In which case, pursuing Lyanna post-Aegon may have been a confluence of romance and prophesy.

[MtnLion]

Either way to Rhaegar it obviously had nothing to do with Elia since he passed over her that's my point. For a man like Rhaegar to not realize or realize and not care that naming Lyanna QoLaB would be taken by the public as a terrible insult to his wife suggests something more that just simple respect or acknowledgement of Lyanna. What your saying could very well be true but my point is Rhaegar's developing romantic feelings for Lyanna definitely influenced his decision to crown her as well in my opinion.

I just don't see it as a terrible insult to Elia. If it were then if a Whent had won and given the crwon to his sister, as planned, it was a terrible insult to Elia? Hardly. The crown had no real meaning other than as a trophy to involve the women in the men's game. It may have surprised people, but, "smiles dying" is a far cry from anger.

[Jon Icefyre]

I just don't see it as a terrible insult to Elia. If it were then if a Whent had won and given the crwon to his sister, as planned, it was a terrible insult to Elia? Hardly. The crown had no real meaning other than as a trophy to involve the women in the men's game. It may have surprised people, but, "smiles dying" is a far cry from anger.

Well actually I think "smiles dying" is pretty serious when your talking about how people would react to the royal family at that time in public, specifically towards Rhaegar who was by all accounts the most beloved man by the people in the seven kingdoms. I mean It's not like the crowd would actually ever yell at the guy in an angry manner in public, they loved him too much to do that. Also I think "the smiles dying" refrence is less about anger towards Rhaegar and more about the crowd sympathizing with Elia's embarrassingly awkward position/situation.

[Ser Leftwich]

Well actually I think "smiles dying" is pretty serious when your talking about how people would react to the royal family at that time in public, specifically towards Rhaegar who was by all accounts the most beloved man by the people in the seven kingdoms. I mean It's not like the crowd would actually ever yell at the guy in an angry manner in public, they loved him too much to do that. Also I think "the smiles dying" refrence is less about anger towards Rhaegar and more about the crowd sympathizing with Elia's embarrassingly awkward position/situation.

The smiles of the smallfolk? Hardly. This is about the nobles, not the smallfolk.

[Jon Icefyre]

The smiles of the smallfolk? Hardly. This is about the nobles, not the smallfolk.

I never said just the smallfolk I think it was about the crowd in general high and low.

[Ygrain]

The smiles of the smallfolk? Hardly. This is about the nobles, not the smallfolk.

And probably even particular nobles - Robert and Brandon, and in general, the Stark entourage

[Andreas]

After reading this theory and thinking about it for some time I have come to the conclusion that it's so obviously correct.

And hopefully since it's so obvious it means that it wont turn out that way in the end.

[Jon Icefyre]

And probably even particular nobles - Robert and Brandon, and in general, the Stark entourage

Well don't forget about Elia's side she had friends and family there as well, or just the royal entourage in general surely none of them saw this coming other than maybe perhaps Arthur Dayne.

[UVA]

And probably even particular nobles - Robert and Brandon, and in general, the Stark entourage

The "all smiles dying" quote from Ned's GOT chapter aside, there are other sources that indicate Rhaegar's selection of Lyanna had a more negative impact. I've read a SSM saying that Robert was not happy about Lyanna's crowning, which then lead Martin to say that Robert should have crowned his own maiden -- the former comment is a little cryptic to be honest. Should Robert have tried to win the Tourney? Anyway, there are also Barristan's ruminations on the matter in ADWD, saying how much bloodshed could have been avoided had he (Barristan) won. Rhaegar's decision is also noted in the App wherein the Martells were angered by the slight to Elia; and among the nobility in general Rhaegar's act caused a 'minor scandal', that although no one thought much of it at the time, retrospectively it became a much bigger deal after Lyanna's 'abduction'.

So yeah, this was not a casual oversight and with someone noted for being so deliberate and single-minded in purpose, I can't imagine Rhaegar doing this without basing it on what he deemed to be sound reasons for doing so.

[lojzelote]

I just don't see it as a terrible insult to Elia. If it were then if a Whent had won and given the crwon to his sister, as planned, it was a terrible insult to Elia? Hardly. The crown had no real meaning other than as a trophy to involve the women in the men's game. It may have surprised people, but, "smiles dying" is a far cry from anger.

I think it's comparing two very different things. Whent was not married to Elia and he was related to the girl he meant to give the crown to. I bet that if Rhaegar crowned Rhaella, no smiles would have died that day. Most likely, we would hear that it was really sweet and gallant of Rhaegar to acknowledge his mother as the most beautiful woman there. Nobody would consider it a misstep, including Elia and the Dornish. The thing with Rhaegar is, though, that he ignored his lady wife in favour of some random noblewoman he had no connection to, as far as anybody knew.

[MtnLion]

I think it's comparing two very different things. Whent was not married to Elia and he was related to the girl he meant to give the crown to. I bet that if Rhaegar crowned Rhaella, no smiles would have died that day. Most likely, we would hear that it was really sweet and gallant of Rhaegar to acknowledge his mother as the most beautiful woman there. Nobody would consider it a misstep, including Elia and the Dornish. The thing with Rhaegar is, though, that he ignored his lady wife in favour of some random noblewoman he had no connection to, as far as anybody knew.

While I can agree that Rhaegar apparently had no connection to Lyanna, I cannot agree that a Whent bypassing his own wife in favor of his sister is significantly different. I would like to see a direct quote of what is said in the app, but until then I don't see any special significance between awarding the crown, over say a woman bestowing a knight with her favor.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The "all smiles dying" quote from Ned's GOT chapter aside, there are other sources that indicate Rhaegar's selection of Lyanna had a more negative impact. I've read a SSM saying that Robert was not happy about Lyanna's crowning, which then lead Martin to say that Robert should have crowned his own maiden -- the former comment is a little cryptic to be honest. Should Robert have tried to win the Tourney? Anyway, there are also Barristan's ruminations on the matter in ADWD, saying how much bloodshed could have been avoided had he (Barristan) won. Rhaegar's decision is also noted in the App wherein the Martells were angered by the slight to Elia; and among the nobility in general Rhaegar's act caused a 'minor scandal', that although no one thought much of it at the time, retrospectively it became a much bigger deal after Lyanna's 'abduction'.

So yeah, this was not a casual oversight and with someone noted for being so deliberate and single-minded in purpose, I can't imagine Rhaegar doing this without basing it on what he deemed to be sound reasons for doing so.

That SSM about Robert is very interesting. I don't suppose you can link it? I can't imagine what he could have meant but clearly he meant something (and also probably intentionally cryptic)

I agree that Rhaegar meant something very specific by crowning Lyanna. But I also think he may have been socially unaware of the ramifications in the way that many very smart people fail at basic human interactions. While Rhaegar was apparently a paragon in many ways I think it's possible that he was somewhat innocent of how his actions appeared to others. If you've read Dunk & Egg and think about the way Egg would sometimes act, just being unconscious of the effects of his behavior because he was raised a Targaryen rather than from intent, you'll know what I mean.

I just feel like trying to reconcile the Rhaegar everyone (except Robert :devil: ) seems to remember as an extremely honorable person is very hard unless we assume a degree of oblivion on his part. :dunno:

[lojzelote]

While I can agree that Rhaegar apparently had no connection to Lyanna, I cannot agree that a Whent bypassing his own wife in favor of his sister is significantly different. I would like to see a direct quote of what is said in the app, but until then I don't see any special significance between awarding the crown, over say a woman bestowing a knight with her favor.

What wife? You're not talking about Oswell? Anyway, I disagree; showing your sister affection is a perfectly innocent deed in the eyes of Westerosi (unless you're a Targaryen).