R+L=J v.42

[SFDanny]

Now, after the sack of King's Landing and the death (or supposed death) of Aegon, the position is slightly more complicated but essentially the same, because the "true" heir is still not Viserys but any other son of Rhaegar.

Any other legitimate son of Rhaegar.

[Jon Icefyre]

What suggests that he changed his mind again? The interpretation of what the Stark house means? I know we are building theories out of thin reeds here, but do we really have anything that suggests another change in Rhaegar's view of the prophecy? I don't see it myself, but to each his or her own.

Well Idk if if he was dead-set on it as if he was following every instruction/rule of the prophecy, he probably originally assumed that since it was prophesied that TPTWP would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line that he(Rhaegar) was really the only key element. Thus the reason he thought his firstborn son (Aegon) was that prince(along with the commet passing on his birth etc...). But I think it's reasonble to suspect that at some point in his relationship with Lyanna he must have realised what was happening. I mean Rhaegar's a pretty melodramatic guy yet he seemed pretty intrigued with this phropecy to the point of becoming pen pals with Maester Aemon about the subject, and at one point even thinking it was himself. The fact that Aemon(a maester of all people) also believed this propehecy most likely even strengthened Rhaegar's resolve in at least his orginal thought of him(Rhaegar) being the key. Idk if Rhaegar planned on being in a relationship with Lyanna, but surely at some point the irony of his and Lyanna's relationship/situation was not lost on him being that he seemed to have known a decent amount about the prophecy.

[Black Crow]

Any other legitimate son of Rhaegar.

True, but I was under the impression that the ultimate thrust of this thread is that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and therefore true heir to the Iron Throne. As I said we heretics take a different slant on this but my point was to clarify both the line of succession and the King's Guard consequent priorities.

Agree, by the way, that "his is the Song of Ice and Fire" means the battle song rather than a union of ice and fire.

[SFDanny]

I take your point but I think you may be missing mine. I take from the SSM that Rhaegar ordered all three of the KG to stay with Lyanna. If that is right, and one of them left for Dragonstone, that one would be violating the order. I have suggested a couple of ways that the KG could obey Rhaegar's order while still fulfilling their duty to protect Viserys (as King) from harm or threat, e.g. leaving Lyanna to die unprotected would make any reconcilation with the rebels difficult; bastard Jon is a potential for Vyseris the same way he later became a potential heir for Robb. These are both perfectly plausible decisions for the KG to make and indeed to me they make more sense than having one of them try to sneak over to Dragonstone alone versus waiting a few days so they can all three go there together.

I think what you are suggesting is possible if Rhaegar's order something general like "provide Lyanna with KG protection" but not if it was something more specific like "you three stay with Lyanna and keep her out of the hands of the rebels or die trying."

Throughout the series, and especially in the first Dunk and Egg novella, there is a theme played out over and over again about conflicting oaths and the need to choose what to follow. Can we agree that such a situation is in play with Viserys and the Kingsguard trio if Viserys is their new king? Why? Because we know, because it is spelled out by Jaime and Ser Barristan, as well as by other actions to the Kingsguard that the first duty is to protect their king. We know they must also follow the orders of the king, and if he so designates, his family members as well. When the two vows conflict something must give way. So, let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that such a conflict does happen to the Kingsguard trio when they find out Viserys is their new king, and they are attempting to following Rhaegar's last order. What makes you think these three men would choose to ignore the first duty to follow the order of a dead prince to guard his mistress and her bastard child?

[SFDanny]

Well Idk if if he was dead-set on it as if he was following every instruction/rule of the prophecy, he probably originally assumed that since it was prophesied that TPTWP would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line that he(Rhaegar) was really the only key element. Thus the reason he thought his firstborn son (Aegon) was that prince(along with the commet passing on his birth etc...). But I think it's reasonble to think that at some point in his relationship with Lyanna he must have realised what was happening. I mean Rhaegar's a pretty melodramatic guy yet he seemed pretty intrigued with this phropecy to the point of becoming pen pals with Maester Aemon about the subject, and at one point even thinking it was himself. The fact that Aemon(a maester of all people) also believed this propehecy most likely even strengthened Rhaegar's resolve in at least his orginal thought of him(Rhaegar) being the key. I don't think Rhaegar planned of being in a relationship with Lyanna, but surely at some point the irony of his and Lyanna's relationship/situation was not lost on him being that he seemed to have known a decent amount about the prophecy.

You reference an important part of the prophecy, at least as Rhaegar is concerned, in the appearance of a comet on the night of Aegon's birth. The last hero is supposed to be "born amidst smoke and salt." Rhaegar believes Aegon fits this foretelling of Azor Ahai. Obviously, he can't think the same about a child not yet born when he dies. What we are relying on here is not in story elements then, but a loose interpretation of the phase "Ice and Fire" to be equivalent to House Stark and House Targaryen. I would point out that if that was that obvious then others would have reached that conclusion and we have no evidence that was so, and we have no evidence that Rhaegar reaches it before he dies. It is a reader imposed meaning based on what we think is the importance of one character to the story - Jon Snow.

[SFDanny]

True, but I was under the impression that the ultimate thrust of this thread is that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and therefore true heir to the Iron Throne. As I said we heretics take a different slant on this but my point was to clarify both the line of succession and the King's Guard consequent priorities.

Agree, by the way, that "his is the Song of Ice and Fire" means the battle song rather than a union of ice and fire.

All good. Have to start reading more of the heretic threads, btw.

[dragontamer]

About Rhaegar changing his mind: we know that Rhaegar spent almost his entire life, not only believing that he was TPWWP but also studying the prophecy and not just himself but Aemon too. The only thing that made him change his mind was the red comet; it wasn’t like he was changing his mind every year.

We also know that the war lasted almost a year (probably +couple of months) and that Aegon was about 1 year old at the time of his death. So that gives us a tiny time frame (if any) in which something significant must have happened in order for Rhaegar to change his mind again.

Something that he hadn’t realized all this time he was studying the prophecy.

I don’t necessarily find it impossible but I think it’s unlikely. Nor I believe that his original plan was to recreate the Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys trio since at the time Rhaenys was born he still believed that he himself was the PWWP.

[Budj]

They are also making a big assumption that the bleeding red star is the comet. It is definitely a good fit, but not necessarily what the prophecy speaks of.

[Addam of Hull]

I'm not utterly convinced that Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is necessarily anymore impactful than being the illegitimate son. At current, Jon believes himself to be the son of Eddard Stark and an unknown woman. Jon knows nothing about her, except that he once dreamed that she was beautiful. During AGOT, he resolves that at some point, he's going to ask Lord Eddard about his mother. I think the implication there is that he definitely wants to meet her, if at all possible. Regardless of whether he's a legitimate son or not, R + L takes away his beliefs about his father and mother in one fell swoop. He'll never have the chance to know either of them. And while he'll quite correctly view Eddard as his adoptive father, there's still something to be said for his birth parents and wanting to know them.

If we assume that Robb's will eventually legitimizes and crowns Jon, then I think being illegitimate actually has more of an impact on him. I can picture it my mind - Jon is crowned King of Winter and along comes Howland Reed, with news of who his mother is. Can you imagine how happy he'd be? Then he lets the news fly that not only is Jon an orphan, but he's the bastard of his aunt and the man who stole her. It'd serve as a strong reminder that his "base" nature is still, well, base. He is still a child born out of wedlock, no matter how they crown him. It just strikes me as poetic, almost, that after finally becoming a Stark, he is reminded that he's still a bastard from the North.

[SFDanny]

Nor I believe that his original plan was to recreate the Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys trio since at the time Rhaenys was born he still believed that he himself was the PWWP.

Doesn't that suppose that recreating the trio means that one of them must be the PWWP? I think his attempt to recreate the trio has more to do with the part of the prophecy he assumes relates to the dragon having three heads. That's not incompatible with still believing he was the PWWP. He is just forced to reevaluate his own role based on the signs he sees when Aegon is born.

[Ygrain]

I believe that if Rhaegar truly changed his mind about who PTWP is, or received any impulse which convinced him that it is right to act on his feelings to Lyanna, it might have come from his correspondence with Aemon. - What was that book with the AA prophecy that he recomended Jon to read, Jade Compendium? There can be some vital piece of information that Rhaegar had been missing and Aemon found, and since the book is about to be read (if Jon survives), he might actually come over it without realizing its true meaning for his parentage.

[Budj]

I'm not utterly convinced that Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is necessarily anymore impactful than being the illegitimate son. At current, Jon believes himself to be the son of Eddard Stark and an unknown woman. Jon knows nothing about her, except that he once dreamed that she was beautiful. During AGOT, he resolves that at some point, he's going to ask Lord Eddard about his mother. I think the implication there is that he definitely wants to meet her, if at all possible. Regardless of whether he's a legitimate son or not, R + L takes away his beliefs about his father and mother in one fell swoop. He'll never have the chance to know either of them. And while he'll quite correctly view Eddard as his adoptive father, there's still something to be said for his birth parents and wanting to know them.

If we assume that Robb's will eventually legitimizes and crowns Jon, then I think being illegitimate actually has more of an impact on him. I can picture it my mind - Jon is crowned King of Winter and along comes Howland Reed, with news of who his mother is. Can you imagine how happy he'd be? Then he lets the news fly that not only is Jon an orphan, but he's the bastard of his aunt and the man who stole her. It'd serve as a strong reminder that his "base" nature is still, well, base. He is still a child born out of wedlock, no matter how they crown him. It just strikes me as poetic, almost, that after finally becoming a Stark, he is reminded that he's still a bastard from the North.

I get your points and I wouldn't be too disappointed if it ended up that way, but a lot of that is with respect to Jon's personal development. Jon being legitimate enables a lot more 'global' plot movement. If it is revealed that he is a bastard son of a Targ then he has no leadership claim. At best he'll be a regent to Rickon and / or a wildling leader which will not make it easy to unify the realm for whatever apocalypse is coming. Which in my opinion is the whole point of tptwp.

Being the legitimate son of Rhaegar solves a lot of issues with the Tyrell alliance members / Dorne that would rather be Targaryen loyalists, his Stark Kingship via Robb gets him the Riverlands, Vale (with Sansa's help), the North and his time at the wall gets him the wildlings and whatever loyal members remain in the event the wall falls. There are also the bread crumbs of Tyrion or Jaime bringing in the West either due to being Rhaegars son / the friendship from book 1 between Jon and Tryion.

If he is a legit Ice Targ then he can keep Rickon in WF as the lord and take up a seat in what I'm guessing, but is not limited to, CB or the Nightfort.

I know a lot of this is subjective / speculative, but Jon being legit helps wrap up a lot of loose ends on a global scale. Whether or not that's what Martin wants I guess we will find out.

[BlindGirl]

Well, I'm assuming you are discussing my post where - the memory of an aged fan sometimes fails - I'd forgotten about Dany's burns - my mistake. I stand by the statement that Jon is a product of R + L but, his Stark upbringing and Stark genetics are much stronger than any Targaryan ones. He's ice, Dany's fire.

He's both, he's the son of Fire and Ice

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

I agree with you to some extent: At this point in time, Jon seems much more Ice than Fire. However, I also think he hasn't found his balance yet, and won't do so until he finds out about his fiery side and accepts it. Jon might be only ice now, but he has to be ice and fire for the story to end well.

Given George RR Martin's propensity for making his readers cry, and his own proclivities expressed in his writing, in what concievable way would you imagine that this ends well? I can only see impending doom and disaster.

[sabrecmc]

Not crackpot at all, I think that's also how it went down. It makes a good deal of sense. The Whents had a daughter and they would eventually be Lyanna's in-laws. Doesn't make much sense for her to trek up north only to go back down, plus she was betrothed to a southerner and they might have wanted her to get used to the customs. Oswell would obviously know Harrenhal and the area. Plus, it gives Rhaegar and Lyanna not one but two plausible methods of getting married in the immediate vicinity: the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces and the wandering Septon Meribald. Given the very obvious crossed signals and the fact that at least some people thought she was abducted — no one was sure what was going on — it also makes sense that she was "away" from her immediate family when she ran off with Rhaegar, as opposed to fleeing from Winterfell.

The Septon Meribald parts of the book always struck me as completely random it he doesn't turn out to have been the one to marry R&L. Not that a book can't have random parts, but as soon as he popped up and talked about walking around marrying people, I thought "Ah-ha, he's going to say something about once performing a marriage for a dragon or a prince or something!" But, alas, nothing so obvious, darn you GRRM.

I do think it matters whether Jon is legitimate or not, simply because it seems to matter to Jon so it matters to me. I was re-reading some Jon chapters last night and there was a lot of stuff about bastards being tainted and untrustworthy and how he felt not being able to inherit Winterfell because of his birth. Funny, but he mentions being better at sums and swords than Robb, but then that it didn't matter because he was a bastard. So, I do think that it is important that he is legit. Not just because of people's impressions, wrongly, obviously, of what it means to be a bastard, but because of Jon's feelings about it. Some might feel that an illegit Jon would prove that bastards are just fine and dandy, so to speak, but just reading those passages, it was sort of heartbreaking for him. So, I'm Team True Heir, I guess! Not sure that means he sits on the Iron Throne, since I'd personally like him and one of his awesome dragons to melt that horrid thing, but whatever.

There was another passage I was curious about...where the book Master Aemon leaves for Jon (Dragonkin, I think) falls open and shows the picture of Balerion in colored ink. I had a point about that when I re-read it, but now can't exactly put it into words. I guess just that why mention the book falling and opening to that picture...again, it seems random, but reminded me of the mention of the locket that they can't open in HP that turns out to be important. It just felt like it was supposed to be random but was way too deliberate for that. I still say the passage in Dance from the Jade Compendium about AA makes Lightbringer sound like a dragon (making a monster's blood boil or some such), so I hold out hope that dragons and AAR are connected, if AAR is Jon. Now I've confused myself again.

[BlindGirl]

[

[Alia of the knife]

Again, given the stigma that Martin has given bastards in the world of Westoros, even more so at this time in real history, there really is no way to expand Jons character if he is illegetimate.

Thats a literary box that Martin gets himself into simply due to the template and narrative he's created.

Aurane Waters is only slightly better off, but still smarmy. Gendry really has no way up other than his connection to Arya, and given his bitterness and dislike of the Nobility, despite being a Kings son, he'll likely to have a dubious path, because he hasn't even been trained in arms, or educated.

And then of course theres psycho Ramsey Bolton.

The only decent bastard so far, is Mya Stone, so no, I don't think it brings anything to the story to make Jon a bastard. And for all those who dislike so-called "cliches," the bastard, or poor boy "that makes good" has almost become a cliche' in itself.

Making the kid who is actually the legitimate Heir get both the throne and the girl, is at this point coming full circle with this type of "trope-busting" motif and now "original" again.

BUT, what kind of King would Jon make?

That question plays right into the theme of "be careful what you wish for," because at that point, Jon could be even more ruthless than Aegon the Conquerer, and hard enough to make the Starks of Old look like Sweet Robin.

[lcd52]

True, but I was under the impression that the ultimate thrust of this thread is that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and therefore true heir to the Iron Throne. As I said we heretics take a different slant on this but my point was to clarify both the line of succession and the King's Guard consequent priorities.

Agree, by the way, that "his is the Song of Ice and Fire" means the battle song rather than a union of ice and fire.

So maybe it's as simple as the family great swords are "Ice" and "Blackfire."

As far as legitimacy goes, Does it strike anyone else odd that having had her entire life hijacked to fulfill a prophecy, Rhaella evacuates Kings Landing leaving all she has left of her precious Rhaegar behind? If Elia's children are Rhaegar's, either she's one unnatural grandmother or my own was at least half she-bear.

[Ygrain]

So maybe it's as simple as the family great swords are "Ice" and "Blackfire."

As far as legitimacy goes, Does it strike anyone else odd that having had her entire life hijacked to fulfill a prophecy, Rhaella evacuates Kings Landing leaving all she has left of her precious Rhaegar behind? If Elia's children are Rhaegar's, either she's one unnatural grandmother or my own was at least half she-bear.

Not that she could actually do a thing about it. Given her condition, even less wonder, I'd say.

[dragontamer]

They are also making a big assumption that the bleeding red star is the comet. It is definitely a good fit, but not necessarily what the prophecy speaks of.

I agree, I don’t believe it either but apparently Rhaegar did.

Doesn't that suppose that recreating the trio means that one of them must be the PWWP? I think his attempt to recreate the trio has more to do with the part of the prophecy he assumes relates to the dragon having three heads. That's not incompatible with still believing he was the PWWP. He is just forced to reevaluate his own role based on the signs he sees when Aegon is born.

Anything is possible, I was simply pointing out the fact that the "dragon has three heads" doesn't necessarily mean that one of the heads has to be the PWWP at least in Rhaegar's head. Having that in mind - if we assume that Rhaegar was right of course - the lack of one head doesn't make the existence of the PWWP impossible. This idea is reinforced by Aemon’s belief that Daenerys could be the PWWP, even if, as far as he knows, there is no other Targaryen left, let alone two.

I believe that if Rhaegar truly changed his mind about who PTWP is, or received any impulse which convinced him that it is right to act on his feelings to Lyanna, it might have come from his correspondence with Aemon. - What was that book with the AA prophecy that he recomended Jon to read, Jade Compendium? There can be some vital piece of information that Rhaegar had been missing and Aemon found, and since the book is about to be read (if Jon survives), he might actually come over it without realizing its true meaning for his parentage.

While I agree that vital information will be discovered, probably by Jon or Sam through books, I doubt Aemon had discovered anything new since his last words don’t imply a change of mind neither on Rhaegar’s part nor himself, before learning about Daenerys and her dragons. So I have to assume that according to known information Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the PWWP until his death.