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Why Yohn Royce wanted the Vale to go to war against the crown?


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#1 LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:59 PM

We know Yohn Royce wants to wage war against the crown in support of the Stark/Tully faction:

 

“Sweet Petyr, I’ve missed you so, you don’t know, you can’t know. Yohn Royce has been stirring up all sorts of trouble, demanding that I call my banners and go to war"

 

 

Even after the Red Wedding:

 

The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt’s failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support

 

 

 

We know there is some kind of relationship between the Starks, and house Royce (Bronze Yohn was a guest at winterfell a couple of times, even fighted in practice duels against Ned and Ser Rodrik).. Littlefinger names him as a potential ally when Ned plans the "coup"

There are also some very distant blood ties, as Catelyn tell us when discussing Robb´s heir.

 

Still all of this is really thin when it comes to march against the crown, or rebelling against your liege lord.

 

What is Bronze Yohn´s deal?


Edited by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse, 03 November 2013 - 05:05 PM.


#2 Facebookless Man

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:04 PM

The Lannisters are supposed to be the murderers of Jon Arryn.


Edited by Facebookless Man, 03 November 2013 - 05:04 PM.


#3 TheWizard

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:05 PM

Ned was raised at court in the Vale

 

The Vale rode beside the North and Riverlands during Roberts Rebellion

 

Yohn Royce seem very honorable so he would get along well with Ned and Robb

 

He probably sees that the Lannisters are controlling the throne and not the Baratheons

 

Edit: Lannisters supposedly killed Jon Arryn. They for sure killed Ned and also he might believe Stannis and his letter. Just because people do not like Stannis and wont fight for him does not mean they dont believe him


Edited by TheWizard, 03 November 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#4 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:05 PM

The Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn. That's the word all over the Vale after Tyrion's trial. Afterwards it is kinda confirmed when the Ned gets executed and the Riverlands attacked. Stannis' letter is the icing on the cake. Tyrion sends his raiders into the Mountains of the Moon, armed with Lannister steel.

 

To the best knowledge of the Lords of the Vale, the Lannisters attacked them first.



#5 Addam of Hull

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:06 PM

Well, Ned did spend a good many years fostering in the Eyrie.  I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Vale Lords loved Ned as much as many of the Northern ones.  Lysa also publicly accused Tyrion of plotting Jon Arryn's death as well, so there's that to boot. Actually, I'd hardly be surprised if Yohn Royce holds the Lannisters responsible for the deaths of Jon, Ned, and Robert.



#6 bloodofwinterfell

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:09 PM

Maybe Bronze Yohn was friends with Ned when he was fostered at the Vale (I'm guessing he was friends with Robert since he was hunting with him at the end of AGOT)? Or he respected him a lot after Robert's Rebellion? I remember someone brought up a point a long time ago he seemed to go out of his way to visit Winterfell instead of taking a much shorter route.

 

Or it could be much simpler: he knew that Jon Arryn would've supported the Starks and it was an insult to House Arryn and the Vale that they were doing nothing. Also, a lot of people in the Vale thought the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn.



#7 LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:20 PM

All good points..

 

It also should be pointed out that Loras Tyrell murdered one of his sons (Robar)



#8 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:29 PM

- First Men

- lots of honour

- Robert and Ned fostered in the Vale

- Ned was a personal friend

- believed Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn

- Joffrey illegitimate

- Tywin brutalizing the Riverlands & Tullys are allies of the Vale (remember the Blackfish - Vale connection)

- Robb's appeal to the Vale and lady Lysa

 

So really, there are many reasons why the Vale should have gone to war against the Lannisters too.

It seems like "plot armour" that the Vale does not join the Young Wolf's cause, until we see why Lysa refused to do so.



#9 Minstral

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:32 PM

Maybe Bronze Yohn was friends with Ned when he was fostered at the Vale (I'm guessing he was friends with Robert since he was hunting with him at the end of AGOT)? Or he respected him a lot after Robert's Rebellion? I remember someone brought up a point a long time ago he seemed to go out of his way to visit Winterfell instead of taking a much shorter route.

 

Or it could be much simpler: he knew that Jon Arryn would've supported the Starks and it was an insult to House Arryn and the Vale that they were doing nothing. Also, a lot of people in the Vale thought the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn.

 

When the yougest son of Yohn went to the wall with his father they made sure to stop at Winterfell. Sansa would recall how the Lord of Royce knows her, and that Ned spent a good deal of time with him. Also, Yohn may have been privy to what Robert thought of Clegane raiding the Riverlands, after all he was there when Robert heard the news of Ned's decree.

 

Aside from these points though, I think that there is an established kinship that the North and Vale have formed since the Conquest. These two regions were bitter enemies warring for control of the Bite and Sisters, but I think that changed. Considering the that the Vale is supposed to have amongst the "purest" Andal lineages there are a good number of powerful houses that take the effort to trace their lines to the First men. We know of a couple examples of Starks going to marry into Vale houses, and noteworthy wards like Ned and and Roose's son does indicate, to me at least, that the relationship between the Vale and North has evolved from the enemies they used to be.



#10 James Arryn

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:38 PM

The opening POV shows the Royces to be brave, noble, honourable and in every other way Ned-ish in he face of death.

More and more I become convinced that Ned's honour code is a Lot more Vale/Arryn than North/Stark. Anyways, they fit together naturally.

Also, having them stay out now leaves them as the wildcard in the game, which serves narrative tension.

#11 Mr Fixit

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:41 PM

- First Men

- lots of honour

- Robert and Ned fostered in the Vale

- Ned was a personal friend

- believed Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn

- Joffrey illegitimate

- Tywin brutalizing the Riverlands & Tullys are allies of the Vale (remember the Blackfish - Vale connection)

- Robb's appeal to the Vale and lady Lysa

 

So really, there are many reasons why the Vale should have gone to war against the Lannisters too.

It seems like "plot armour" that the Vale does not join the Young Wolf's cause, until we see why Lysa refused to do so.

 

Tis ill-advised to ponder over such things  :bang:  :)

 

Had Vale joined the war, golden-haired beauties would adorn many a spike. Even Tywin would have been powerless against such an alliance. I doubt Tyrells would be in any hurry to support Lannisters after that, too.



#12 Varys BrightBlackflayrme

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

because we need him and/or his son alive at the near end of the story to wear that awesome bronze magic runed armour. They just need to remember where to find the magic invinciblilty on button. Maybe its the nipples on the breast plate. Therefore making that saying "Useless as nipples on a breast plate" null in void.  



#13 sertravisredbeard

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 06:32 PM

It seemed like the Royces, especially Bronze Yohn, had some kind of ties to the Starks and the North.  Have we heard of any other southern  lordlings joining the Night's Watch besides Waymar Royce and Sam Tarly.  We know why Sam did.  We assume Waymar did because he was a third son, but there's a few other options besides the Night's Watch for most third sons from southern families. 

 

Bronze Yohn also actually came north with his son and stayed at Winterfell for, I'm not sure, a month or so maybe?  The Royces definitely stayed long enough to make an impression on Sansa.  Yohn and Ned could have gotten too know each other during their youth in the Vale, and also during the rebellion.  Bronze Yohn knew the armies of the Vale could make a difference in the war, and Ned was his friend so he wanted to help.

 

Or in a realpolitik way, Yohn could have assumed that if the Vale helped no one in the war, whoever won would be kind of pissed off that they didn't respond to any requests for assistance.  If he didn't feel obligation to the North, he might have not wanted to suffer the repercussions if the winners decided to punish the Vale later on.

 

Overall I think it was just GRRM hinting that some in the Vale did want to help, so there'd be an army later on that wasn't affected at all for the second part of the story.



#14 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 06:37 PM

They're distant kin to the Starks.

They're first men.

Their motto is 'We Remember'.

 

They'll be Stark allies in the long run!



#15 Varys BrightBlackflayrme

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:23 PM

And the books started with Ser Waymar. I thought he was awesome in the book and show. I hope it ends with a Royce or they are involved at the end.



#16 Mr Bell

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:27 PM

Yohn Royce is an honorable man. He was likely friends with Ned. He thought the Lannisters killed his liege lord, the list goes on.

 

However, its better for the Vale in the end that they didn't get involved. Because they might have still not been able to beat a Lannister-Tyrell alliance (though it'd be a long and bloody war). Now the Vale is the largest untapped force in Westeros.



#17 Apple Martini

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:31 PM

Just about all of the lords in the Vale know Ned because he was fostered there. A few of the houses are related to the Starks in some way. They think the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn to hide Cersei and Jaime's incest, and they see that Tyrion armed the mountain clans against them. They have every reason to join the Stark-Tully alliance. That they didn't just means that they're an untapped force for that alliance down the road.



#18 Lord Damian

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:38 PM

House Royce, I expect, will play a much larger role in the last couple of books. I would love to see where the family connection to the Starks is and how deep as far as blood goes. I would also not mind seeing them rule the Vale as SweetRobin is sickly in a death way at best, he probably is Littlefinger's bastard as it is implied through Lysa that she and Littlefinger were fucking for years.



#19 NomadicDirewolf

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:04 PM

I'm guessing that the Royce's and Starks have generally been on good terms for a while now, best reason in the long term would be that i think the royce's might keep the old gods, and the old ways. I mean, they seem to value the role of the NW, one of yohn's younger sons decides to go there to seek glory, and there seat is called runestone, which sounds pretty first men like to me.

In the short term, Yohn Royce strikes me as a guy who was good friends with Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn, he is an honourable man, and a fierce one too, and he seems to have continued these friendships (visiting Winterfell, and hunting in KL) so he would want to intervene to help the memory of his friends



#20 Ser Greg of House House

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:22 PM

I'm guessing that the Royce's and Starks have generally been on good terms for a while now, best reason in the long term would be that i think the royce's might keep the old gods, and the old ways. I mean, they seem to value the role of the NW, one of yohn's younger sons decides to go there to seek glory, and there seat is called runestone, which sounds pretty first men like to me.

In the short term, Yohn Royce strikes me as a guy who was good friends with Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn, he is an honourable man, and a fierce one too, and he seems to have continued these friendships (visiting Winterfell, and hunting in KL) so he would want to intervene to help the memory of his friends

 

I believe they don't keep the Old Gods. 'The old way' is an ironborn thing. 

But yes, they're an old First Men family. Their sit and bronzer armor have first men runes on them. And they did send Waymar to the NW.

 

And their motto is 'We Remember'. 

 

But... They're tourney knights, which is southern thing.