Catelyn "allowed" the Red Wedding to happen

[MasterJack]

Yes and so? That doesn't mean that the deal was one-sided or that Catelyn agreed to all of Walder's demands thus making him look vulnerable. Quite frankly, a marriage for 4000 men is a pretty fair deal especially seeing it isn't like Robb had any better options to marry at that time. In how, Margaery was already married, while Arianne and Asha were never real options thus it isn't like Robb missed out on any major marriage options besides just another similarly ranked bannermen's family.

A marriage is really a great deal to get 4000men, when you know Robb had little to none chance to win from the start and his kingship would have lasted 1 winter at best. To be honest, once the other 5 or 6 kingdoms return under 1 king, the North was really in deep ***, only winter would save em.

Robb had no other choice other than marry Jeyne since he slept with her, he did the honorable thing! You know, as when i kill a guy with my car when im driving drunk, the honorable action is to bring him to the hospital.

He never wanted to break his marriage promise, he just drove while being drunk.

[Arya kiddin']

A marriage is really a great deal to get 4000men, when you know Robb had little to none chance to win from the start and his kingship would have lasted 1 winter at best. To be honest, once the other 5 or 6 kingdoms return under 1 king, the North was really in deep ***, only winter would save em.

Robb had no other choice other than marry Jeyne since he slept with her, he did the honorable thing! You know, as when i kill a guy with my car when im driving drunk, the honorable action is to bring him to the hospital.

He never wanted to break his marriage promise, he just drove while being drunk.

Hmm. I completely disagree with this post.

1. All the other six kingdoms were not going to come under a single banner soon. So your claim that his kingship would've lasted only one winter is really shaky. Even if the kingdoms do come under one banner, it depends who is sitting the throne actually, because the king then will decide whether he wants the enmity or friendship of the North. And with winter approaching, it would've been foolhardy to mount an assault on the North, who know much better on how to handle winter.

2. It is certainly honorable in Robb's case to marry a girl he had "deflowered", but it is also really dishonorable to sleep with a girl in the first place when you are pledged to another

3. Are you saying driving while being drunk is not a bad thing, it is forgivable? And if an accident happens in this case, the driver should be absolved of all responsibility? Why exactly?

[TheElderSister]

I didn't read this entire thread, so if this has already been said, my apologies for the redundancy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tywin and Walder Frey had already been planning the RW as far back as the initial crossing, before Catelyn made all those promises to Walder. The best he had ever treated the Starks was borderline hostile, and it's not at all far-fetched that he would sell out to the Lannisters even as early on as this first crossing.

Not sure when Roose Bolton would have come into it - possibly he had always been looking for the opportunity that this scheme afforded him.

For Tywin's part, he would know that Robb would need to cross the Trident at some point, so why not make a deal right at the start with the lord of said crossing? This is exactly the kind of thing Tywin would do, covering his bases from every angle, far in advance of any kind of foreseen, or unforeseen trouble - such as Robb kicking his ass at every turn.

This plan would fit perfectly with Walder's single-minded insistence that one of his girls marry Robb - a stroke to Walder's ego, that someone so high profile would be betrothed to one of his girls, and for Tywin, a way to get them all under the same roof. So, it's possible that Jaime's capture, Catelyn's releasing him, and Robb's blowing off the deal by marrying Jeyne, did not factor into the RW decision at all - only in the timing of it.

[Minsc]

So, the heir to the north is a much better prize than random Frey. And I don't think its a fair deal when the Twins allegiance should've been an afterthought. A marriage that might have made an alliance with a vale, crownland, whatever lord is instead being wasted IMO to to appease a bannerman. Does every other bannerman demand a marriage to fight a battle or to rescue their leige? Walder exploited Robb IMO, and Cat played a part in allowing it to happen.

How is a random Vale or Crownland lady a better match then a Frey? Moreover, as Walder mentioned that he owed equal allegiance to the throne thus the matter shouldn't be just an afterthought. Furthermore, Walder actually has marriage ties with the Lannisters as seen how his second eldest married Tywin's sister thus giving him even more excuses to be reluctant in fighting them.

[MasterJack]

Are you saying driving while being drunk is not a bad thing, it is forgivable? And if an accident happens in this case, the driver should be absolved of all responsibility? Why exactly?

It was sarcasm, since ppl seems to love to say Robb did the honorable thing when he married Jeyne while forgetting he had to do this since he had been deshonnorable in the first place :D

[Arya kiddin']

It was sarcasm, since ppl seems to love to say Robb did the honorable thing when he married Jeyne while forgetting he had to do this since he had been deshonnorable in the first place :D

Third time today, my sarcasm radar has not worked. :( What should I do. Help me somebody.

[David Selig]

I didn't read this entire thread, so if this has already been said, my apologies for the redundancy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tywin and Walder Frey had already been planning the RW as far back as the initial crossing, before Catelyn made all those promises to Walder. The best he had ever treated the Starks was borderline hostile, and it's not at all far-fetched that he would sell out to the Lannisters even as early on as this first crossing.

Not sure when Roose Bolton would have come into it - possibly he had always been looking for the opportunity that this scheme afforded him.

For Tywin's part, he would know that Robb would need to cross the Trident at some point, so why not make a deal right at the start with the lord of said crossing? This is exactly the kind of thing Tywin would do, covering his bases from every angle, far in advance of any kind of foreseen, or unforeseen trouble - such as Robb kicking his ass at every turn.

This plan would fit perfectly with Walder's single-minded insistence that one of his girls marry Robb - a stroke to Walder's ego, that someone so high profile would be betrothed to one of his girls, and for Tywin, a way to get them all under the same roof. So, it's possible that Jaime's capture, Catelyn's releasing him, and Robb's blowing off the deal by marrying Jeyne, did not factor into the RW decision at all - only in the timing of it.

This is absurd. Why would the Freys go through all this trouble instead of just closing their gates and allowing Tywin's army to crash Robb's?

[The Red Hand]

How is a random Vale or Crownland lady a better match then a Frey? Moreover, as Walder mentioned that he owed equal allegiance to the throne thus the matter shouldn't be just an afterthought. Furthermore, Walder actually has marriage ties with the Lannisters as seen how his second eldest married Tywin's sister thus giving him even more excuses to be reluctant in fighting them.

Because they can possible add a new kingdom/region to Robb's cause? Both Catelyn and Robb expected Walder to fight the Lannisters, and they were also raiding the riverlands. Should is just my opinion, but when the Twins went to war to save Riverrun I felt they were simply doing what they were supposed to do, just like all the other river bannermen who fought for Edmure/Robb. Demanding a price for that strikes me as petty/dishonorable. idk, maybe I'm just biased against The Late Lord Lord Frey.

[TheElderSister]

This is absurd. Why would the Freys go through all this trouble instead of just closing their gates and allowing Tywin's army to crash Robb's?

Because that would require them to advertise to the world that they had sold out and are on the Lannisters' side. This would invite attacks from Northmen, which would put the Freys right in the middle of the fighting - something the Late Walder Frey has always avoided at all costs.

Also, if Tywin offers him enough, Walder would absolutely go to all that trouble. Tywin wants his enemy in one place so he can slaughter them all at once - which is exactly what happened - and Walder would reap God knows what kinds of rewards for his part in it.

Also, how would Tywin's army destroy Robb's army if the gates are closed? They would also have to cross, and then they would be trying to defeat Robb on his home turf.

[David Selig]

Because that would require them to advertise to the world that they had sold out and are on the Lannisters' side. This would invite attacks from Northmen, which would put the Freys right in the middle of the fighting - something the Late Walder Frey has always avoided at all costs.

Unlike, say, the Red Wedding?

Also, if Tywin offers him enough, Walder would absolutely go to all that trouble. Tywin wants his enemy in one place so he can slaughter them all at once - which is exactly what happened - and Walder would reap God knows what kinds of rewards for his part in it.

Which was kind of my point. Walder could've done much more easily, without becoming a notorious breaker of a holy tradition, by simply closing his gates and waiting for Tywin's army.

The Red Wedding was only possible because of an incredibly unlikely event of Robb breaking the deal. if that hasn't happened, Walder couldn't do it even if he wanted to - no reason for Robb's marriage to be in the Twins, for one thing.

Also, how would Tywin's army destroy Robb's army if the gates are closed? They would also have to cross, and then they would be trying to defeat Robb on his home turf.

Huh? Back in AGOT, before the deal was made, the two armies were on the same side of the river.

[mormont]

Walders leige lord is under siege from a very one-sided attack by the crown.

And as Walder points out, he's sworn an oath to that Crown. You appear to be suggesting that Walder's oath to his liege supercedes his oath to the King. That is not at all clear. What is certainly clear is that he has sworn no oaths to the Starks, and he has not got explicit orders from his liege (nor from his King) about what to do if the Starks are demanding passage. He's perfectly entitled to sit tight and do nothing. He'd be perfectly entitled, for that matter, to say 'my oath to the Crown is the one I'm going to honour' and ride out to help Tywin destroy the Northmen when he arrives.

In any case: the moral issue of what you think Walder should have done is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether Robb or Cat had any choice in accepting whatever terms Walder saw fit to dictate. Cat and Robb could have sat there and demanded that Walder do his duty by Hoster until they were blue in the face. It would have made bugger-all difference to the outcome. (In fact, it might have made Walder less inclined to come to terms - 'who are these holier-than-thou Northmen to tell me what to do, eh? Think they're so noble. Let's see how noble they are when they're being ground into the dirt.')

Fair point, my war council idea might not have worked. That doesn't mean that their only option was neccesarilly capitulation to Walder's (again IMO) outrageous demands.

No. The complete lack of any alternative is what means their only option was capitulation to Walder's demands.

Walder had them over a barrel. The author goes to some lengths to set up a situation where this is true, and to point out to the reader exactly how true it is. He pretty much labours the point, but still, some people seem not to get it. Read the chapter: as I said, he even has the GreatJon (a guy who would have been fully in favour of any alternative if one had been available) spell it out in words of one syllable.

Robb had no choice. Cat had no choice. Not one character thinks otherwise. Walder could ask for anything he liked. If he'd asked for marriages to every one of Cat's children, plus Cat herself - hell, if he'd asked for Robb to personally wash the feet of every Frey in the castle while singing The Bear and the Maiden Fair - their choice would have been the same: accept, or die.

And as I pointed out - only Cat could even have got Walder to offer terms at all. Had Tywin not offended him (and Cat not picked up on that) Walder would quite happily have told the Northmen to fuck off, and taken his reward from the crown once they were dead.

The fact still remains that she talked Robb out of placing the Greatjon in command, then suggested a commander who was "cold and cunning". If not for her direct intervention Roose wouldn't be in command. I'm certainly not blaming her for Roose's actions but she had a hand in allowing them to happen IMO. Also, no blame is being placed on Catelyn's decision in and of itself so whether or not she foresaw treachery is moot.

You're all over the place here (and in regard to Ned's actions, for that matter). You're not blaming her, but if not for her Roose wouldn't be in command, but it's not her fault, but she had a hand in it, but no blame is being placed.

You can't have this both ways: if you're not blaming her, then don't blame her. If it wasn't her fault, don't bring it up as a criticism of her.

[TheElderSister]

"Unlike, say, the Red Wedding?"

Yes, unlike the Red Wedding, which was a slaughter of unarmed guests that posed no threat to any Freys - except, as it turned out, Jinglebell.

"Which was kind of my point. Walder could've done much more easily, without becoming a notorious breaker of a holy tradition, by simply closing his gates and waiting for Tywin's army." and "Huh? Back in AGOT, before the deal was made, the two armies were on the same side of the river."

I'm pretty sure Robb's army was going south, trying to get to the same side of the river as Tywin, but not yet there.

"The Red Wedding was only possible because of an incredibly unlikely event of Robb breaking the deal. if that hasn't happened, Walder couldn't do it even if he wanted to - no reason for Robb's marriage to be in the Twins, for one thing."

Under Walder's plan, Robb's wedding would have been at the Twins. As it turned out, they had Edmure's wedding instead of Robb's. Same plan, different groom.

[Matoro]

Yes, unlike the Red Wedding, which was a slaughter of unarmed guests that posed no threat to any Freys - except, as it turned out, Jinglebell.

I'm pretty sure Robb's army was going south, trying to get to the same side of the river as Tywin, but not yet there.

Numerous Freys died during Red Wedding. There was also a battle in the camp where Freys and Boltons killed Robb's men - who were still armed, even though drunk.

Tywin held the Ruby Ford in the south, which meant he was able to control southern bank of Red Fork and eastern side of Green Fork. Robb needed the Twins to cross Green Fork (while Roose advanced to the Ruby Ford to Tywin's forces). So Tywin could just had marched to north and give an open battle to Robb before gates of the Twins.

[TepidHands]

! You know, as when i kill a guy with my car when im driving drunk, the honorable action is to bring him to the hospital.

If he's dead, maybe you should take him to the morgue instead.

[illrede]

The RW was a long chain of bad luck, and Cat did contribute to it by releasing Jaime.

Failure's an orphan. Heck, Bran contributed to the RW- The feast at Winterfell where he stood two Freys up in public and fed them like peasants, and then he fed his peasants like lords. As a calculated statement it goes hand in hand with the interpretation of breaking royal marriage pacts with Freys because House Frey are lowborn graspers that forget themselves.

[The Red Hand]

And as Walder points out, he's sworn an oath to that Crown. You appear to be suggesting that Walder's oath to his liege supercedes his oath to the King. That is not at all clear. What is certainly clear is that he has sworn no oaths to the Starks, and he has not got explicit orders from his liege (nor from his King) about what to do if the Starks are demanding passage. He's perfectly entitled to sit tight and do nothing. He'd be perfectly entitled, for that matter, to say 'my oath to the Crown is the one I'm going to honour' and ride out to help Tywin destroy the Northmen when he arrives.

In any case: the moral issue of what you think Walder should have done is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether Robb or Cat had any choice in accepting whatever terms Walder saw fit to dictate. Cat and Robb could have sat there and demanded that Walder do his duty by Hoster until they were blue in the face. It would have made bugger-all difference to the outcome. (In fact, it might have made Walder less inclined to come to terms - 'who are these holier-than-thou Northmen to tell me what to do, eh? Think they're so noble. Let's see how noble they are when they're being ground into the dirt.')

No. The complete lack of any alternative is what means their only option was capitulation to Walder's demands.

Walder had them over a barrel. The author goes to some lengths to set up a situation where this is true, and to point out to the reader exactly how true it is. He pretty much labours the point, but still, some people seem not to get it. Read the chapter: as I said, he even has the GreatJon (a guy who would have been fully in favour of any alternative if one had been available) spell it out in words of one syllable.

Robb had no choice. Cat had no choice. Not one character thinks otherwise. Walder could ask for anything he liked. If he'd asked for marriages to every one of Cat's children, plus Cat herself - hell, if he'd asked for Robb to personally wash the feet of every Frey in the castle while singing The Bear and the Maiden Fair - their choice would have been the same: accept, or die.

And as I pointed out - only Cat could even have got Walder to offer terms at all. Had Tywin not offended him (and Cat not picked up on that) Walder would quite happily have told the Northmen to fuck off, and taken his reward from the crown once they were dead.

You're all over the place here (and in regard to Ned's actions, for that matter). You're not blaming her, but if not for her Roose wouldn't be in command, but it's not her fault, but she had a hand in it, but no blame is being placed.

You can't have this both ways: if you're not blaming her, then don't blame her. If it wasn't her fault, don't bring it up as a criticism of her.

My point was was that if Walder really was going through some moral/legal dilemma about which side to take the Tully would be the more moral, honorable choice considering the Lannisters were the aggressors, and there was already conflict between Walder and Tywins armies.

Walder was in a position of power, making him able to pretty much extort Robb, I get that. The fact still remains that while Robb's bannermen are still figuring out what to do Cat volunteers to treat to Walder and then accepts the deal. Accept or die? Robb could have retreated back to MC or attempted to face Tywin in the field, not really good options but definitely not as fatalistic as you make them sound.

Cat is the only person who can negotiate, or tell when an old man is pissed off? I got the impression that Walder's annoyance with Tywin was already established, and that that was the reason he had engaged negotiations in the first place.

My point has always been that some of Cats actions "allowed" the RW to happen. Logically speaking some of her choices helped bring about the RW even if it was unintentional and the results were unforseeable. I don't blame Cat for the RW because ultimately it came down to the choices of the perpetrators, but I still respect the fact that some of her decisions help bring it about, like Robb and Theon. Maybe if you weren't so set on excusing Cat of any-and-all wrongs you could see thats it more of an examination and less a "crtiticism".

[Littlefingers In The Air]

All the posts about Robb not being able to "keep it in his pants" are laughable. Sure, it played a role but it's not like he said to himself "Hot girl, I must fuck her!" There was a lot of grief that clouded his decision making. As for Catelyn, the one thing I blame her for now that I've re-read all of her actions is releasing Jaime. She let too many unknown variables loose when she did that.

[SeanF]

I've always thought that Catelyn did a remarkable job to negotiate the settlement she achieved, given that Walder Frey held almost every card.

Yes, I'm sure Robb could have stormed the Twins, but at the cost of half his army dead or maimed. Catelyn and Walder both knew this.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Robb should have simply threatened to hang Walder and every legal heir of his if he didn't comply.

[mormont]

My point was was that if Walder really was going through some moral/legal dilemma about which side to take the Tully would be the more moral, honorable choice considering the Lannisters were the aggressors, and there was already conflict between Walder and Tywins armies.

Or at least, that's the Stark version. There is another, equally viable version: the Lannisters are supporting the rightful King, the Starks are riding in support of a man who has admitted to treason and betraying his childhood friend. Walder doesn't have any way to know that Ned is innocent, after all. And he's not at war with Tywin.

But we agree, I think, that Walder is not particularly interested in the rights and wrongs. I'm merely making the point that (unlike, say, the Red Wedding) there's a reasonable story for Walder to tell that averts any aspersions being cast on him for telling Robb and his army to go boil their heads.

Walder was in a position of power, making him able to pretty much extort Robb, I get that. The fact still remains that while Robb's bannermen are still figuring out what to do Cat volunteers to treat to Walder and then accepts the deal.

You make it sound as if some of those bannermen were not completely on board with Cat's suggestion (they all were), that they might have had a better idea (they didn't), that Cat did not have Robb's complete authority to negotiate on his behalf and accept any deal she could get (she did), and/or that anyone on Robb's side thought the deal was not the best they could have got in the circumstances (no-one did).

Cat was not on some rogue mission here.

Accept or die? Robb could have retreated back to MC or attempted to face Tywin in the field, not really good options but definitely not as fatalistic as you make them sound.

It's not me that's making them sound that way. As I said, it's the author who goes out of his way to create a scenario where Robb has no choice and then point that out to the reader. He needed the Frey/Stark marriage pact: he forced it to happen. He very deliberately leaves the characters with no choice but to agree to it. Blame GRRM if you like: but don't blame Cat.

Cat is the only person who can negotiate, or tell when an old man is pissed off?

As I already pointed out, yes. Cat is the only one able to humble herself, being a woman and not needing to stand on her pride: and Cat is the only one who knows, and understands, Walder.

I got the impression that Walder's annoyance with Tywin was already established, and that that was the reason he had engaged negotiations in the first place.

And where do you get that impression? From a Cat POV chapter...

My point has always been that some of Cats actions "allowed" the RW to happen.

The quotes are a nice touch, there.

Bluntly, you appear to be using "allowed", quotes and all, to try to apportion blame without having to defend your position. You're looking to have your cake and eat it.

If all you mean is that Cat was involved in the chain of events that led to the RW, but you genuinely don't mean to apportion her any blame - your observation is banal and pointless. You could say the same of Robb, Ned, Luwin, a dozen others, and it would mean nothing. But that's not all you mean: you're singling Cat out, and explaining how she was wrong in what she did. So you're blaming her. Call it what it is.