Let’s Change the Conversation: Remapping Dany

[Audrey Arryn]

Of course im right. Ask anyone about me, they'll tell you, ero is always right.

:lmao:

Ok thanks for letting me know I'll keep that in mind :p

[butterbumps!]

I agree that Dany's in-story role is that of an agent of change, more than of a ruler.

The thing is, she doesn't seem to realize this herself. Perhaps ''dragons plant no trees'' is this realization, but I doubt it. And other than that, she doesn't give off the vibe of realising her failures as a ruler, and wanting to either 1) improve or 2) move on to being a leader and finding people who can do the ruling. She still styles herslef as Queen, not as a revolutionary or somesuch even if she does work to take down a reprehensible system.

And about being a catalyst, so far she's been a pretty bad one IMO. Let's overlook the atrocities at Astapor and look at the result: a field of ruins, that previously had reintroduced slavery as soon as she was gone. Meereen fares better, but it seems that's more thanks to manipulations by the Shavepate and Barristan keeping the Harpy and its cronies from taking back the city than any inspirational quality Dany could have. Yunkai is still happily slaving away. She shook up slavery a lot, but I'm not certain there's anything in place to replace it, especially once she's gone if she does go.

I mean, she's good at shaking things up but that's not that hard when you have dragons and an army of 100% obedient super-soldiers. A catalyst needs rulers to follow up, but currently there are none in Essos (unless somehow Tyrion counts?) and the people in Westero that could both ally with her and serve that purpose are very rare indeed, not to mention she would have to actually realize she needs such a person herself.

I get the point of this thread, and it's certainly far more productive than ''I love Dany'' vs ''I hate Dany'' ad nauseum, but I'm not certain the story is heading that way at all.

I think she might realize it in her final chapter, when she claims her identity as a dragon and her role as a conqueror, not a builder.

I definitely struggle a lot with these same issues you articulate. I think, ideally, we have an expectation that if you start something, you should finish it. I too struggle with my feelings on someone who overturns something, but doesn't stabilize it afterward. It makes me extremely conflicted about whether something ought to have been interrupted in the first place if it's going to create such a mess.

But, you know, Martin specifically had her tackle slavery, which, objectively, is not only something that needs to be overturned in a moral sense, it's also something impossible to make stable in a lifetime. A truly gifted, enlightened ruler could have mitigated more of the aftermath, but if we're being honest here, there's no way all the chaos and suffering would be resolved within their lifetime either. Could it have been less sloppy? Yes, but overturning an economic system of an entire continent isn't ever going to not be sloppy. Sloppy or not, it needed to be done.

My understanding of Dany here is that she's a gifted leader, and that her talents go beyond merely having dragons, but simply does not excel as an administrator. The way Robert is an adequate (I'd give him a C, C-) king, but sitting the throne destroyed everything that made him admirable, I think that's exactly what's going on here with Dany. Robert was rousing, courageous and fearless as a leader and battle commander; as a king, he became a shadow of his former self. This starts to happen to Dany as well-- she no longer attends court at all, she locks her dragons (which is good for stability, bad for Dany on a personal level) and withdraws. Importantly, she realizes she's not interested in the ruling part of things, and she doesn't like who she is when she attempts that role.

I do think that her ability to rouse and be a catalyst is something to admire independently of whether she excels at the cleanup. I think it's ok to separate the razing and building part of this and appreciate each separately, the way I suspect many of us do with Robert, before and after. And I think in Dany's case, it's a bit more supercharged given that she's got an almost religious cult following and more power behind her. And unlike Robert, I think given how much she disliked who she became in a conventional ruling role, she won't take the throne herself and turn over the affairs to her "Jon Arryn" figure; being on a throne made her so unhappy and alienated from herself, I don't think she'd take the throne at all if it came down to it.

[E-Ro]

I think she might realize it in her final chapter, when she claims her identity as a dragon and her role as a conqueror, not a builder.

I definitely struggle a lot with these same issues you articulate. I think, ideally, we have an expectation that if you start something, you should finish it. I too struggle with my feelings on someone who overturns something, but doesn't stabilize it afterward. It makes me extremely conflicted about whether something ought to have been interrupted in the first place if it's going to create such a mess.

But, you know, Martin specifically had her tackle slavery, which, objectively, is not only something that needs to be overturned in a moral sense, it's also something impossible to make stable in a lifetime. A truly gifted, enlightened ruler could have mitigated more of the aftermath, but if we're being honest here, there's no way all the chaos and suffering would be resolved within their lifetime either. Could it have been less sloppy? Yes, but overturning an economic system of an entire continent isn't ever going to not be sloppy. Sloppy or not, it needed to be done.

My understanding of Dany here is that she's a gifted leader, and that her talents go beyond merely having dragons, but simply does not excel as an administrator. The way Robert is an adequate (I'd give him a C, C-) king, but sitting the throne destroyed everything that made him admirable, I think that's exactly what's going on here with Dany. Robert was rousing, courageous and fearless as a leader and battle commander; as a king, he became a shadow of his former self. This starts to happen to Dany as well-- she no longer attends court at all, she locks her dragons (which is good for stability, bad for Dany on a personal level) and withdraws. Importantly, she realizes she's not interested in the ruling part of things, and she doesn't like who she is when she attempts that role.

I do think that her ability to rouse and be a catalyst is something to admire independently of whether she excels at the cleanup. I think it's ok to separate the razing and building part of this and appreciate each separately, the way I suspect many of us do with Robert, before and after. And I think in Dany's case, it's a bit more supercharged given that she's got an almost religious cult following and more power behind her. And unlike Robert, I think given how much she disliked who she became in a conventional ruling role, she won't take the throne herself and turn over the affairs to her "Jon Arryn" figure; being on a throne made her so unhappy and alienated from herself, I don't think she'd take the throne at all if it came down to it.

Interesting comparison. I cant say that I like it, being that I really like robert alot(guy gets way too much hate). but this does make sense, the whole leading vs ruling thing they have in common.

[Sevumar]

I think she might realize it in her final chapter, when she claims her identity as a dragon and her role as a conqueror, not a builder.

My understanding of Dany here is that she's a gifted leader, and that her talents go beyond merely having dragons, but simply does not excel as an administrator. The way Robert is an adequate (I'd give him a C, C-) king, but sitting the throne destroyed everything that made him admirable, I think that's exactly what's going on here with Dany.

I do think that her ability to rouse and be a catalyst is something to admire independently of whether she excels at the cleanup. I think it's ok to separate the razing and building part of this and appreciate each separately, the way I suspect many of us do with Robert, before and after. And I think in Dany's case, it's a bit more supercharged given that she's got an almost religious cult following and more power behind her. And unlike Robert, I think given how much she disliked who she became in a conventional ruling role, she won't take the throne herself and turn over the affairs to her "Jon Arryn" figure; being on a throne made her so unhappy and alienated from herself, I don't think she'd take the throne at all if it came down to it.

The problem with Dany seeing her identity as that of a dragon is that she fails to understand that she is not locked into a nature or a destiny. An actual dragon doesn't have a choice, but Dany is a person who does. There are things she can do to improve, but she chooses not to do them.

Dany is a gifted partial leader, but she's not living in an age or in a society where leadership can be divorced from management once power is attained, especially not with Dany's personality. Getting people to follow you and knowing what to do with the influence after the ardor dies down are two different things, and arguably, the second one is more important. Since ruling is such an important part of Dany's self-concept, she's not going to give up on it very easily, even if it would make her better at other things.

She's shown an inability to rely on others or to empower others to work on her behalf. Her time in Meereen shows virtually no ability to delegate and no inclination to learn the art of rulership. To want something and simultaneously refuse to work on it is very destructive and that's what Dany's dilemma is.

[Jasta11]

I realize we can't expect her to single-handedly era slavery within a year, but the way she's been going at it, no matter if she stayed 1 year or a hundred nothing would seriously get done. She's really not proactive enough to be a good ruler.

I mean, let's look at Jon. Seemingly each chapter he does something, goes to talk to someone, and many times of his own volition and (important part!) with a plan in mind. It didn't work out for a number of reasons, but I never got the impression he didn't try his best even if he made mistakes. it's been a year since I finished Dance, but as far as I can remember Dany's leadership style is to sit in her pyramid eating figs while waiting for people to knock at her door with bad news and/or suggest ways to get out of her current predicament. The few times she does go out it's to make fairly meaningless shows like visiting the plagued Astapori. And she never seems to have a bloody plan.

That's my main beef really. Not that she wants to topple slavery, that's admirable. Not that she didn't succeed, as it's a tall order for anyone and even a brilliant guy like Lincoln had a very hard time of it (not to mention the whole ''being killed'' footnote). But it seems her entire strategy boils down to: step 1) kill evil people, step 2) ??? step 3) profit and liberation for all!!. If she styled herself as a liberator, someone out for slaver blood exclusively, I'd be more OK with that. But she styles herself queen and mother and blah de blah, so no I don't think we can separate the destroying from the building since she didn't do so herself so far.

And yes, Dany is totally a foil to old king Bob in that regard. Let us hope she doesn't waste away as he did, and even then Robert was smart (or lazy?) enough to delegate his realm to an able administrator. Dany may have not liked being on a throne, but I just do not see her passing her burdens to another like that.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The problem with Dany seeing her identity as that of a dragon is that she fails to understand that she is not locked into a nature or a destiny. An actual dragon doesn't have a choice, but Dany is a person who does. There are things she can do to improve, but she chooses not to do them.

Dany is a gifted partial leader, but she's not living in an age or in a society where leadership can be divorced from management once power is attained, especially not with Dany's personality. Getting people to follow you and knowing what to do with the influence after the ardor dies down are two different things, and arguably, the second one is more important. Since ruling is such an important part of Dany's self-concept, she's not going to give up on it very easily, even if it would make her better at other things.

She's shown an inability to rely on others or to empower others to work on her behalf. Her time in Meereen shows virtually no ability to delegate and no inclination to learn the art of rulership. To want something and simultaneously refuse to work on it is very destructive and that's what Dany's dilemma is.

Far be it from me to speak for butterbumps!, but it seems like you're wildly and insistently missing the point of the OP. You're conflating your condemnation of being unable to rule after overthrowing a social order with an actual inability to divorce the two. You might not like that it's done, but it can be done. This is the premise the thread, that Dany is very good at the first part but requires the compliment of someone better at the ruling part in order for her function as catalyst to bear fruit. Your repeated criticisms of Dany's inability to rule effectively do nothing but argue points that are already presupposed by the the OP. Thus, your only contribution to the thread is to insist on points that you believe are in contention but are actually built into the premise.

As a more general comment, I think it's interesting that this thread has elicited some very harsh responses from both people who believe it's an attempt at bashing Dany and those who believe it's an attempt at whitewashing her. Ultimately I think it's to the OP's credit that both of these groups find fault with it, there must be something right. It is, however, unfortunate that neither group has really managed to disagree constructively and by engaging the framework laid out at the thread's beginning. Instead, I've seen the same tired arguments replayed. But there are some really interesting ideas at work here, and while I don't agree with them categorically and have expressed my disagreement, I think it would be a shame to completely fail to discuss them.

[butterbumps!]

That's my main beef really. Not that she wants to topple slavery, that's admirable. Not that she didn't succeed, as it's a tall order for anyone and even a brilliant guy like Lincoln had a very hard time of it (not to mention the whole ''being killed'' footnote). But it seems her entire strategy boils down to: step 1) kill evil people, step 2) ??? step 3) profit and liberation for all!!. If she styled herself as a liberator, someone out for slaver blood exclusively, I'd be more OK with that. But she styles herself queen and mother and blah de blah, so no I don't think we can separate the destroying from the building since she didn't do so herself so far.

And yes, Dany is totally a foil to old king Bob in that regard. Let us hope she doesn't waste away as he did, and even then Robert was smart (or lazy?) enough to delegate his realm to an able administrator. Dany may have not liked being on a throne, but I just do not see her passing her burdens to another like that.

Well, I strongly do believe that this is what we see her do her last DwD chapter. In fact, I used to write spirited rants about that as an indication she wasn't interested in even learning to rule anymore. But I no longer look at this so negatively-- I think her self awareness that her power and essence is in conquest, separating this out from "planting trees" speaks to what you're saying. When looked at against the overall themes of social order v chaos or inertia v change, I think it becomes a bit easier to reconcile, and see as necessary to the big picture, even if we don't admire her method or admire change and chaos as concepts on a subjective level the way I think many of us favor order.

As a side note, I actually prefer an ending where she returns to Essos, to continue toppling slavery. I think the sort of chaotic change and cult following she excels at would be best applied there, where need for such change is more dire, and where there are already incipient revolts forming such that Dany working in tandem with the building momentum would probably be a significant benefit.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

[quote name="butterbumps!" post="5312875" timestamp="1389591082"

........

As a side note, I actually prefer an ending where she returns to Essos, to continue toppling slavery. I think the sort of chaotic change and cult following she excels at would be best applied there, where need for such change is more dire, and where there are already incipient revolts forming such that Dany working in tandem with the building momentum would probably be a significant benefit.

[IRON BANK]

I fount the essay interesting, however quite reaching. It seems to me that Dany has an intention to rule, and a drive only outmatched by Stannis, coming from an apparent lack of unestablished society structure in her region of the world. The lack of good decision making is a stretch in my opinion as well. The whole thought process behind this is a discredit to the character when we realize how far she has come in such a short period of time. What I find most interesting is that the characters who are surronding her will more than likely fill in the blanks for what you bring out she is apoarently lacking. I do not feel her lack of experience cannot be over come.

[Sevumar]

Far be it from me to speak for butterbumps!, but it seems like you're wildly and insistently missing the point of the OP. You're conflating your condemnation of being unable to rule after overthrowing a social order with an actual inability to divorce the two. You might not like that it's done, but it can be done. This is the premise the thread, that Dany is very good at the first part but requires the compliment of someone better at the ruling part in order for her function as catalyst to bear fruit. Your repeated criticisms of Dany's inability to rule effectively do nothing but argue points that are already presupposed by the the OP. Thus, your only contribution to the thread is to insist on points that you believe are in contention but are actually built into the premise.

Actually, a large number of other posters have made points similar to mine throughout the thread, that singling out Dany as a character whose role is to simply be an "agent of change" is to miss most of what's going on with her, as well as to discount those things she tells us are important to her. It does not add much to a discussion of a character we already knew was going to be an important player and who possesses the tools for and inclination toward destruction.

A conqueror who exists only to destroy with the vague hope that things will improve in her wake seems malicious, mentally ill, hopelessly myopic, or some combination of those. We have yet to see any indication that Dany is willing to stop trying to take power for herself and seek instead to empower the most capable people in a realistic way following her acts of destruction.

[childofsummer]

I'm coming late to this conversation, but I like the OP's framing of Dany as possibly a transient agent of change, rather than a permanent force on the Iron Throne. Dany cannot herself be planning to found Targaryen Dynasty Part II, as she knows that she will never bear a live child, and her only remaining brother (that she knows of) is dead. She doesn't seem to know exactly why she is planning to take the throne, or what she would do if she got it; instead, she has almost Elysian dreams of going back to the house with the red door.

We've seen in the main books and in the recent short story what happens when people decide they want to grab a crown just because they think it's theirs, and it doesn't seem like having the Seven Kingdoms descend yet again (or continue?) into civil war would add much to that narrative. Time is marching on, and the Others are coming. Indications are that dragons help when fighting them. What if her role is, in fact, to be a charismatic military leader who will fly in on her dragons to spearhead the attack against the Others, then retire to the house with the red door while Jon establishes order and Sansa makes the people love it (and her)? (Not shipping here, just speculating, because there was a lot of discussion while Sansa was in KL about her queenly abilities; and Jon seems to be pointed at a pivotal leadership role, even if it doesn't end up being the Iron Throne.)

Anyway - thanks for the post, butterbumps!

[bbstark]

to the OP (sorry I haven't caught up to the whole thread yet)

Just wanna say, excellent critique, bumps! I particularly enjoy the variety of buzzwords borrowed from the natural sciences to describe our Stormborn, DragonMother Queen of chaos. (and Stannis)

Dany tends to frustrate the casual reader with her perfunctory performance at ruling the SB, and the answer seems so simple: she's just not good at it. Whether due to lack of training, or reflection or interest, Dany just seems like a square peg in a round hole in Mereen. A career counselor would suggest to her that her passions lie elsewhere. Dany the catalyst of change is a far better discussion to be had for certain.

It's not just the symbolism around Dany that manifest her as a destructive force (Fire, the Dragon, "Storm" born), it's also her choices that pull her in that direction. It was Dany who chose the risky business of meddling with black magic via MMD. Dany also rejected living a cushy life in Qarth, in order to gain ships through marriage, and instead chose the riskier path of making it on her own. The examples go on and on, going through the red waste, going after Slavers Bay etc etc.

Dany's destructive powers aren't just familial features of dragons and fire on a crest, they stem also from her choices. Dany follows in the steps of becoming the Dragon and conquering her way to Westeros, not just a like an ambitious goal, but like self-fulfilling prophecy.

[SeanF]

Well, I strongly do believe that this is what we see her do her last DwD chapter. In fact, I used to write spirited rants about that as an indication she wasn't interested in even learning to rule anymore. But I no longer look at this so negatively-- I think her self awareness that her power and essence is in conquest, separating this out from "planting trees" speaks to what you're saying. When looked at against the overall themes of social order v chaos or inertia v change, I think it becomes a bit easier to reconcile, and see as necessary to the big picture, even if we don't admire her method or admire change and chaos as concepts on a subjective level the way I think many of us favor order.

As a side note, I actually prefer an ending where she returns to Essos, to continue toppling slavery. I think the sort of chaotic change and cult following she excels at would be best applied there, where need for such change is more dire, and where there are already incipient revolts forming such that Dany working in tandem with the building momentum would probably be a significant benefit.

She's an agent of change in two, linked, ways.

1. Her anti-slavery crusade. That's been discussed in detail here.

2. Religious change. The Red Priests of Volantis think she's the real deal, as Azhor Ahai reborn. We don't know what they expect of AA reborn. To save the world from the Others (if they know about them); to purge the World of unbelievers? If she embraces this role, then she'll gain the support of millions of people throughout Essos, and topple governments throughout the continent. Perhaps her role is to be like the Heavenly King. He had no administrative skills at all, but inspired millions of Chinese to fight and die for him.

[GoldenFleece]

Actually I'd argue that if anyone follow's the monomyth, it's Jon.

Jon's arc follows it too, but Dany's arc follows it right to the letter though. Bran's arc also follows it to a fashion, but a lot more loosely than Jon or Dany.

[GoldenFleece]

The problem with Dany seeing her identity as that of a dragon is that she fails to understand that she is not locked into a nature or a destiny. An actual dragon doesn't have a choice, but Dany is a person who does. There are things she can do to improve, but she chooses not to do them.

Dany is a gifted partial leader, but she's not living in an age or in a society where leadership can be divorced from management once power is attained, especially not with Dany's personality. Getting people to follow you and knowing what to do with the influence after the ardor dies down are two different things, and arguably, the second one is more important. Since ruling is such an important part of Dany's self-concept, she's not going to give up on it very easily, even if it would make her better at other things.

She's shown an inability to rely on others or to empower others to work on her behalf. Her time in Meereen shows virtually no ability to delegate and no inclination to learn the art of rulership. To want something and simultaneously refuse to work on it is very destructive and that's what Dany's dilemma is.

Delegate to whom though? The previous ruling class are against her, and those who support here are afraid to be seen associated with her. And if there are previous ruling class willing to be part of her administration, can she trust them? She could use her freed-slaves in administration - but do they have any knowledge on how to run a city? I doubt it.

Delegation is easier said that done.

What Butterbupps is saying in her OP, is that Daenerys is one of these characters that has appeared in history time and again to be like a force of nature. Some historians call in Creative Destruction. To create something completely new, sometimes first you have to destroy. Sometimes it is better to kick the rotten structure down rather than build on that rotten structure - which is what Jon tried to do, and it collapsed into chaos anyway to the ruin and death of possibly half of Westeros.

In SB, yes people are suffering now, (mostly by the plague - which I hope you agree isn't caused by Daenerys and mostly by Yunkai - a city that Daenerys choose to spare), but if she manages to kill of the slave trade in the East - how many lives will she save in the future, even those unborn that will be born into slavery? Volantis rising up. Also will the Dothraki still attack villages/towns anymore if their main profit in doing so (selling slaves) is taken away? There is not many precious loot in this places and even little glory. This could potentially change Dothraki raiding culture and behaviour overnight, they could attack cities for plunder sure, but they seem to be reliant on fear from this cities and take "gifts" rather than their seigecraft abilities.

[Lummel]

I realize we can't expect her to single-handedly era slavery within a year, but the way she's been going at it, no matter if she stayed 1 year or a hundred nothing would seriously get done. She's really not proactive enough to be a good ruler.

...

And yes, Dany is totally a foil to old king Bob in that regard. Let us hope she doesn't waste away as he did, and even then Robert was smart (or lazy?) enough to delegate his realm to an able administrator. Dany may have not liked being on a throne, but I just do not see her passing her burdens to another like that.

I can see why you think that though looking back at her earlier chapters she does have a proactive programme for Meereen, the creation of an agricultural base to feed everybody, opening up new diplomatic relations with neighbouring states, developing trade and commerce. What happens though is that she is pushed back into being reactive by the revolt of the sons of the harpy and later by the declaration of war by the slave powers. Also she has a sever blow to her confidence and self image at the end her first ADWD chapter when it turns out that at least one of her baby dragons has been snacking on her subjects.

Her big problem in Meereen is that she doesn't have the people that she can delegate to. The locals like the Shavepate we realise are pursuing their own interests, in the process making the situation more difficult to deal with. The people she brought with her have either limited skills or very limited outlooks - the best of them intellectually is the twelve or so year old Missandei.

...A conqueror who exists only to destroy with the vague hope that things will improve in her wake seems malicious, mentally ill, hopelessly myopic, or some combination of those. We have yet to see any indication that Dany is willing to stop trying to take power for herself and seek instead to empower the most capable people in a realistic way following her acts of destruction.

No conqueror can ever know that things will improve in the wake of their conquest at best they can only believe that things will be better, presumably for themselves and any people that they happen to like. Most conquerors, I imagine, had no thought of improvement simply of making another territory theirs.

[Disputatious]

If you look at her reasons for taking Meereen, slavery doesn't actually figure into the top several she gives. She primarily talks about wanting to steal Meereen's food, and not wanting to wound her pride by leaving the city untaken. Rage against slavery and the actions of slavers are probably in her mind, but it's telling that she's not citing them when she has an opportunity to do just that.

GRRM is a better author than that.

[lostcause]

GRRM is a better author than that.

That is said a lot. But it does for some part remain to be seen. He has yet to finish the story. ;)

[butterbumps!]

I think her arc is written with too much grandeur to end is Essos. Personally, I think she will die eventually.

Edit: sorry, screwed up quote again

I think I agree to the extent that Westeros is the focus such that her leaving would seem anti-climactic, but if it were a case where she wasn't merely retreating but doing something rather earth-shattering (as continuing abolition would be), I don't know if that would feel problematic to us.

To be clear, though, I don't think the scenario I presented is likely; it's just the one I like in terms of what I see as a resolution, in part because I think such a campaign would bring her personal fulfillment. I agree, though, that Dany might "burn out" before the end-- Tormund comments that "the hottest fires burn out quickest," which which might be applicable here.

She's an agent of change in two, linked, ways.

1. Her anti-slavery crusade. That's been discussed in detail here.

2. Religious change. The Red Priests of Volantis think she's the real deal, as Azhor Ahai reborn. We don't know what they expect of AA reborn. To save the world from the Others (if they know about them); to purge the World of unbelievers? If she embraces this role, then she'll gain the support of millions of people throughout Essos, and topple governments throughout the continent. Perhaps her role is to be like the Heavenly King. He had no administrative skills at all, but inspired millions of Chinese to fight and die for him.

Yea, I think this is getting at what I was aiming for with that scenario-- the combination of force and followers working in tandem to some idealistic purpose. Of course, the slavery campaign is something I could get behind; I'm not sure a religious crusade would be seen as acceptably by us. That's a really fascinating point though-- if the Reds are seeking a religious purge with Dany at the top, would Dany accept that role and become a believer, or redirect that support to a non-religious social end? I think I could see an argument for both.

Actually, a large number of other posters have made points similar to mine throughout the thread, that singling out Dany as a character whose role is to simply be an "agent of change" is to miss most of what's going on with her, as well as to discount those things she tells us are important to her.

And has been repeatedly pointed out, the purpose behind making the thread and not harping on whether Dany is a good person or a good ruler is because those discussions miss most of what's going on with her. Additionally, those discussions are quagmires of the same hackneyed debate points, all of which bring little illumination to Dany's character as a whole and are so overdone I think most of us could write all the points on both sides of the fence individually.

It does not add much to a discussion of a character we already knew was going to be an important player and who possesses the tools for and inclination toward destruction.

A conqueror who exists only to destroy with the vague hope that things will improve in her wake seems malicious, mentally ill, hopelessly myopic, or some combination of those. We have yet to see any indication that Dany is willing to stop trying to take power for herself and seek instead to empower the most capable people in a realistic way following her acts of destruction.

The thesis of this thread is not that Dany is important, and such a takeaway is a fairly obtuse interpretation of the OP and my following posts.

I'm taking the fact that she's important as a given and articulating how I believe she's important in the context of the series, and in particular, I'm locating her within the whole without placing judgment on the role I understand she embodies (the chaos), by challenging our biases against chaos and destruction as being inherently negative concepts.

If you don't find character analysis interesting, then there's no shortage of threads you can categorically bash Dany in to press your points that she sucks because she's not gifted at rebuilding. This thread is about understanding she does not excel at (nor wants to) rebuild, and find virtue in that fact in light of the full story of ASOIAF.

This is a character analysis thread-- not some apologia or bashing session. That's the point of reframing views like this-- to lead to a better appreciation of Dany's arc by putting the sum of her past into context, thereby reaching a new (and imo, more meaningful) understanding of her character. That a more analytical conversation about Dany that doesn't revolve around the blessed 163 is a virtue in and of itself.

If finding any virtue in Dany's arc whatsoever is truly so appalling because you can't get past your feelings on her ruling capabilities, then I'd appreciate it if you didn't continue to derail as you've been and articulate those feelings elsewhere.

[GoldenFleece]

Butterbumps. Dany's purpose in this series is to be an agent of change, and I agree that the brightest, hottest embers in a fire die out the quickest will probably apply to her. She is already changing Essos, probably forever. But her path will ultimately lead her to Westeros - what change will/can she bring about in that feudal system? Gender equality? More powers for the peasantry? A Charter of Rights, a Magnus Carta if you will?

If her purpose is an agent of change, she simply can't be a heroine that swoops in saves the day from the others and restore the old feudal system. What is her purpose regarding change when it comes to Westeros do you think? And who is likely to carry out her changes when she will (probably) die?