Best Military Mind on ASOIAF?

[Night's_King]

She kept the single dragon, but destroyed her reputation with fucking over the sellers, and killed the factory that makes those soldiers. She can't have more, she would find it harder to make future deals when people remember that she would fuck you over if she can't pay for what she wants, or even if she could pay but won't. She made new enemies out of nearly half a continent (who are currently numbering in the high tens of thousands, or by now over 100,000 soldiers laying siege to the single city she has semi-control over), and it's all for 8,000 foot soldiers who are now slowly wasting away with battles, plague, hunger, insurgency etc in a land far, far away from her end-goal, Westeros.

Not the most thought out move ever... especially when the dragons prove to be more a problem than the fabeled WMD that people wrongly claim them to be.

Yup.

Furthermore: We are talking about capable and brilliant commanders and generals. Which Dany is not. And the move had nothing to do with military.

[OldGimletEye]

No one is denying it was useful to her, it's just that the Good Masters are so ridiculously dumb fooling them doesn't really earn you a place as a brilliant military mind. It means Dany is of above-average intelligence while her enemies were idiots, nothing more.

Yeah, Dany's little move at Astapor wasn't exactly Austerlitz, Luethen, or Cannae.

[SeanF]

I'm not quite sure, but I thought she would have gotten all the Unsullied for Drogon.

She could, but she didn't want to part with Drogon. Without him, she could have purchased an honour guard.

[Olligarchy]

Betraying the Good Masters of Astapor. Whether or not one thinks is was ethical, to do so was both intelligent and courageous.

As others have stated, this is not truly a military decision. All it does is prove that she can betray someone and the way she did it ensured that the mess she's in right now is entirely one of her own creation and there would be a certain sense of justice in her dying because of it. What Daenarys did may have given her 8,000 Unsullied, a city and a huge rep bonus with the slaves of Essos, but it also signaled to anyone with a prior powerbase that she was someone you could not trust, and hence would not dare negotiate with.

In a short time she's managed to sack a few cities with said army that she gained from her betrayal, but she's also managed to unite all of the cities on the Slavers Bay against her and made even Non-Slaving cities of Essos (Like Bravos) wary of her since they have no way of knowing if she'll uphold any bargain struck. In the end in a world like Westeros (and Essos) a ruler is only as good as his word. If nobody can trust your word they will never dare surrender to you since they know there will be no clemency, no negotiation... just her destroying you completely and utterly. This leads to EVERYONE she fights with fighting to the DEATH. How many lives do you think could be saved if Daenarys hadn't betrayed the Good Masters? Or at least had the decency of doing it more covertly?

Even a dog can betray the hand that feeds it after having been loyal for years. Said dog has neither intelligence nor courage... just animal instinct.

[SeanF]

She kept the single dragon, but destroyed her reputation with fucking over the sellers, and killed the factory that makes those soldiers. She can't have more, she would find it harder to make future deals when people remember that she would fuck you over if she can't pay for what she wants, or even if she could pay but won't. She made new enemies out of nearly half a continent (who are currently numbering in the high tens of thousands, or by now over 100,000 soldiers laying siege to the single city she has semi-control over), and it's all for 8,000 foot soldiers who are now slowly wasting away with battles, plague, hunger, insurgency etc in a land far, far away from her end-goal, Westeros.

Not the most thought out move ever... especially when the dragons prove to be more a problem than the fabeled WMD that people wrongly claim them to be.

That's like saying Austerlitz wasn't much of a victory, because Napoleon subsequently threw his army away in Russia.

Dany makes plenty of strategic errors, subsequently. But, her betrayal of the Good Masters, in and of itself, was both cunning and brave.

[Night's_King]

That's like saying Austerlitz wasn't much of a victory, because Napoleon subsequently threw his army away in Russia.

Dany makes plenty of strategic errors, subsequently. But, her betrayal of the Good Masters, in and of itself, was both cunning and brave.

1. Austerlitz was one of Napoleons biggest victories. He didn't threw his army away in Russia. Russia won through cruel methods and Napoleon lost mostly due to hunger and cold.

2. In which world is letting your Dragons roast unprotected people brave?

[OldGimletEye]

That's like saying Austerlitz wasn't much of a victory, because Napoleon subsequently threw his army away in Russia.

Dany makes plenty of strategic errors, subsequently. But, her betrayal of the Good Masters, in and of itself, was both cunning and brave.

Well, I will admit that it was somewhat cunning (but come on, the Astaporians were kind of stupid) and that it was brave. But, I suppose we could say the same of drug dealers who screw over their partners in drug deals.

The Astapor incident,however, doesn't really convince me that Dany is in possession of the coup d'oeil.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Maybe I confused it but I thought they (or Robb) considered Stannis because the letter already got out. He wanted to do the right thing, but I don't remember anymore why he came to that conclusion.

But probably because Stannis was the older brother.

Here are some quotes from Catelyn's last chapter in GoT (the Council at Riverrun):

“Ser Edmure told me. I am sorry, Mother… for Lord Hoster and for you. Yet first we must meet. We’ve had word from the south. Renly Baratheon has claimed his brother’s crown.”

“Renly?” she said, shocked. “I had thought, surely it would be Lord Stannis…”

“So did we all, my lady,” Galbart Glover said.

Renly claimed Robert's crown, even though Robb and his bannermen expected Stannis to do it. So Stannis hasn't sent the letter yet.

Roose Bolton had re-formed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin’s army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal. And there were two kings in the realm. Two kings, and no agreement.

That's the the Council's situation report, summed up by Catelyn. Note that there are only two kings - Renly and Joffrey. Stannis isn't considered because he hasn't claimed the throne yet (which he did in the same letter in which he proclaimed Cersei's children to be bastards).

And here is the rest of the conversation, prior to the Greatjon speaking up:

Lord Jonos Bracken rose to insist they ought pledge their fealty to King Renly, and move south to join their might to his.

“Renly is not the king,” Robb said. It was the first time her son had spoken. Like his father, he knew how to listen.

“You cannot mean to hold to Joffrey, my lord,” Galbart Glover said. “He put your father to death.”

“That makes him evil,” Robb replied. “I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert’s eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey.”

“Tommen is no less a Lannister,” Ser Marq Piper snapped.

“As you say,” said Robb, troubled. “Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He’s Robert’s younger brother. Bran can’t be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can’t be king before Lord Stannis.”

Lady Mormont agreed. “Lord Stannis has the better claim.”

“Renly is crowned,” said Marq Piper. “Highgarden and Storm’s End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?”

“The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

“So you mean us to declare for Stannis?” asked Edmure.

“I don’t know,” said Robb. “I prayed to know what to do, but the gods did not answer. The Lannisters killed my father for a traitor, and we know that was a lie, but if Joffrey is the lawful king and we fight against him, we will be traitors.”

[SeanF]

2. In which world is letting your Dragons roast unprotected people brave?

Think about what the Good Masters would have done to Dany, if the Unsullied had not turned.

[Olligarchy]

Betraying the Good Masters of Astapor. Whether or not one thinks is was ethical, to do so was both intelligent and courageous.

Dany makes plenty of strategic errors, subsequently. But, her betrayal of the Good Masters, in and of itself, was both cunning and brave.

Could we get a list of all the adjectives for Daenarys actions in Astapor before we continue this debate? Because I really want to hear the other ones so I can laugh at them just as I've laughed at the four prior to them. ;)

[Stormland's Fury]

Here are some quotes from Catelyn's last chapter in GoT (the Council at Riverrun):

Thanks for clearing that up, it was a while since I read GoT and the whole situation at that point is just one big political clusterfuck.

Still i wished personally wished they declared for Stannis, because the whole independence thing just caused more troubles than it was worth (even if justified) and it was a rathers spontaneous decision on top of that.

Basically now they're back to square one and allied with Stannis anyway.

[Stormland's Fury]

Could we get a list of all the adjectives for Daenarys actions in Astapor before we continue this debate? Because I really want to hear the other ones so I can laugh at them just as I've laughed at the four prior to them. ;)

Cunning is ok I guess, I mean she really exploited the naivité and idiocy of the Astaporians, but in no way constitutes one political maneuver the overall attributes that would qualify being a good military commander.

[Jasta11]

Think about what the Good Masters would have done to Dany, if the Unsullied had not turned.

But that's not really the point of the thread. Bravery is not skill at command and warfare. Might as well say Aerion Brightflame was the greatest commander of all times because he was ''brave'' enough to quaff Wildfire.

Saying Dany is a great commander because she fooled the Good Masters is like saying Ser Meryn Trant is a great warrior because he beat up Sansa.

[Olligarchy]

But that's not really the point of the thread. Bravery is not skill at command and warfare. Might as well say Aerion Brightflame was the greatest commander of all times because he was ''brave'' enough to quaff Wildfire.

Saying Dany is a great commander because she fooled the Good Masters is like saying Ser Meryn Trant is a great warrior because he beat up Sansa.

I think comparing Dany to Trant is an insult to Ser Meryn.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Still i wished personally wished they declared for Stannis, because the whole independence thing just caused more troubles than it was worth (even if justified) and it was a rathers spontaneous decision on top of that.

If you ask me the fault lies with Stannis here. IMHO, had he not sat on his hands for a year, but instead contacted Ned, or even acted faster after Robert's death, Robb would've definitely declared for him.

Edit: But yeah, a Robb/Stannis alliance vs the Lannister/Tyrell one would've been awesome.

[OldGimletEye]

Saying Dany is a great commander because she fooled the Good Masters is like saying Ser Meryn Trant is a great warrior because he beat up Sansa.

If Dany beat up Sansa, or more likely, tricked Sansa so that she got beat up, some Dany fans would claim that would prove that Dany was one of the greatest prize fighters in all of Westeros.

[DurararaFTW]

His strategy was basically to move on KL with a superior number. Nothing wrong with that.

But yeah he didn't even really particularly care about war.

It's more the way he met Stannis, he used Robb's idea and split his cavalry and infantry. Except he wasn't attacking right away like Robb, and he didn't have supplies with him and Storm's End was on the far side of Stannis' army. He'd still win but as the only military strategem he ever deployed it was a pretty sloppy one.

[Stormland's Fury]

If you ask me the fault lies with Stannis here. IMHO, had he not sat on his hands for a year, but instead contacted Ned, or even acted faster after Robert's death, Robb would've definitely declared for him.

Edit: But yeah, a Robb/Stannis alliance vs the Lannister/Tyrell one would've been awesome.

Oh, I am also mad with Stannis. At least he could have let Renly in on his little plan too.

[Lee-Sensei]

If you ask me the fault lies with Stannis here. IMHO, had he not sat on his hands for a year, but instead contacted Ned, or even acted faster after Robert's death, Robb would've definitely declared for him.

Edit: But yeah, a Robb/Stannis alliance vs the Lannister/Tyrell one would've been awesome.

He had a chance to declare for Stannis after and he didn't.

[Minsc]

Edit: But yeah, a Robb/Stannis alliance vs the Lannister/Tyrell one would've been awesome.

Robb was already basically doing everything he could to help Stannis (making Tywin go west thus leaving KL undefended) it was only Stannis who majorly dropped the ball.