[Book & Show Spoilers] Season 4 is unsatisfying for me so far

[Tixu Oty]

Well I'm completely unable to say which season I liked better or least, much less rank them. It's hard to do that with episodes too. I can say which scenes and storylines I like best and why and that's about it. It makes me very curious of why some people would rank a season or episode as lower or higher than others. Based on what? So many things come into play.

For critics that say the show gets better and better each season, it only sounds to me like they're getting more and more hooked to it as the story progresses. Like an addiction process. I'm not sure it has anything to do with quality. And quality of what? I'm not saying the show gets worse and worse either. It seems pretty consistent to me.

One things I've noticed this season though is that they spend more time on each character/location, and cram less of those each season. I'm a big fan of shows that have bottle episodes or character centric episodes (I loooved this season of the walking dead for that reason). So the only thing I can say about ranking is that 4x02 was very, very good. The Dreadfort and the the Purple Wedding. It doesn't get any better than that.

I can see why the showrunners woud try to touch a bit of everything before and now they feel confident enough that they worry less and less about that and I like that a lot.

Though, I must say I really enjoy the structure the show adopted for its current season. They aren't afraid to leave whole storylines out of episodes and check in on them every other week or even more rarely. Even within that concept, it's interesting how D&D decided to structure KL material with many episodes revolving around a single "point of view character", e.g. Jaime in 4x04. Previous seasons would have been even better had the show done this earlier.

I concur.

I don't think it's the increase in number of plot strands necessarily that's the issue for many reviewers. As you said, they grasp the general structure of following multiple viewpoints and settings and the need to pay close attention to characters major and minor because of their present or future importance to the story.

The issue is that as a consequence of these increasing storylines, the flow of individual episodes is affected whereby they don't feel we get to spend a long enough extended period in one spot in order to truly let that story settle in and be effective. It has made some stretches and seasons feel like they're going simultaneously too fast and with not enough story momentum (which is a weird juxtaposition).

But as mentioned, I do think they've done a lot better more recently in allowing us to stick around an individual story for a longer period in order to showcase that particular arc more effectively. You can really see the difference in the approaches when you watch the premieres and finales compared to the rest of the episodes as they tend to be the episodes that try and catch us up with as many characters as possible.

Interesting analysis.

B..But... The Spice King?

I actually loved the spice King. He was hilarious in a way he was Dany's much needed reality-check. Loved the antagonism and the fact that just cuz you got dragons doesn't mean people are going to do you any favors. I liked that storyline but Pyat Pree was a bit odd to me.

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

Episodes 1 and 2 were great, episodes 3, 4 and 5 a little bit boring and episode 6 was pretty good.

I think ep. 7 will be as good as ep. 6, and I'm sure that the final three episodes this season will be best :)

[Frey Pies]

If I had to rank the episodes so far, I'd go:

The Laws of Gods and Men

The Lion and the Rose

First of His Name

Oathkeeper

Breaker of Chains

Two Swords

Really, all episodes this season have been amazing, imo, and I can instantly think of many amazing scenes the moment I think of any of these episodes. Based on the first 6, I can say that this is easily the best season so far (based on the other's first six as well). And, knowing what's ahead, it will blow any expectations one could have had from these amazing first six out of the park. I think this season of TV will go down as one of the best seasons of TV, like BB season 5B and The Wire season 4.

[sj4iy]

If I had to rank the episodes so far, I'd go:

The Laws of Gods and Men

The Lion and the Rose

First of His Name

Oathkeeper

Breaker of Chains

Two Swords

Really, all episodes this season have been amazing, imo, and I can instantly think of many amazing scenes the moment I think of any of these episodes. Based on the first 6, I can say that this is easily the best season so far (based on the other's first six as well). And, knowing what's ahead, it will blow any expectations one could have had from these amazing first six out of the park. I think this season of TV will go down as one of the best seasons of TV, like BB season 5B and The Wire season 4.

I envy non-book readers because they don't know how much awesome is in store for them the rest of this season. Hell, I'm extremely excited myself.

[Frey Pies]

I envy non-book readers because they don't know how much awesome is in store for them the rest of this season. Hell, I'm extremely excited myself.

I envy even book readers, because I'd foolishly gone and looked up all the spoilers for all the books to come halfway through reading AGOT. Oh well, no one to blame but myself. And yeah, I can't wait :) .

[King Tommen]

If I had to rank the first three books in order, I'd have ASoS, then AGOT followed by ACOK so I don't see why it's so strange that Season 2 might not be everyone's favourite. The source material is the same way IMO.

ACOK is the middle book in the 1st Act of ASOIAF and outside of Blackwater (which was one of the best episodes of the series so far, if not the best), there isn't a ton of climatic action. It has to introduce a large chunk of additional characters, introduce brand new settings, do a lot of world building and move existing characters into their proper position to have their big climatic moments in ASoS. The show even had to bring forward some of the ASoS arcs into Season 2 (Jaime and Brienne's journey, the Attack at the Fist, Robb meeting Talisa etc) just to provide some forward momentum.

I can point to stuff I don't like in all of the seasons but at the end of the day, the way you feel about the source material is going to feed a lot of how you feel about what's on the screen. And let's not fool ourselves, AGoT is by far the easiest book to adapt to the screen, that's a softball. It's the rest of the books that are a challenge.

[Darkstar112]

Unfortunately after the red wedding for me both the books and tv series lost somewhat of my interest. The threat of Robb with the revenge against the lannisters carried across 3/4 books and 3 seasons was suddenly cut dead, now I know many may not liked the Starks but I think a majority did and this suddenly vanished.

To replace this with the news flash situation of Dany, the vale and KL isnt really sufficient, especially when you think Tywin will be dead and Tyrion on the run next season. The introduction of Dorne will probably be boring as F*** and if they focus on Brienne and Pod that will be too.

Lady Stoneheart & the BwB might have a bit of shock value but if they dont pull in the others somehow I dont really see enough great action to keep the tv series viewers happy. The guy I chat to at work already thought most of the episodes have been fillers, which may hold some truth seeing as they declared every episode would have a shocker or some impact..... really...

[Zombies That Were Promised]

Dany just had a huge cliffhanger at the end of S1. There was simply no way to follow that up with her only appearing in ~4 episodes of S2, when it wasn't guaranteed we'd get renewed in the way we know now. I was Unsullied for S2, and I still thought she wasn't appearing enough to my liking. I got almost nothing out of her in the first 3 episodes, and I was expecting her to go places.

I know Jaime appeared in only 4 episodes of S2, but I don't think it's the same.

[Annara Snow]

If I had to rank the first three books in order, I'd have ASoS, then AGOT followed by ACOK so I don't see why it's so strange that Season 2 might not be everyone's favourite. The source material is the same way IMO.

ACOK is the middle book in the 1st Act of ASOIAF and outside of Blackwater (which was one of the best episodes of the series so far, if not the best), there isn't a ton of climatic action. It has to introduce a large chunk of additional characters, introduce brand new settings, do a lot of world building and move existing characters into their proper position to have their big climatic moments in ASoS. The show even had to bring forward some of the ASoS arcs into Season 2 (Jaime and Brienne's journey, the Attack at the Fist, Robb meeting Talisa etc) just to provide some forward momentum.

I can point to stuff I don't like in all of the seasons but at the end of the day, the way you feel about the source material is going to feed a lot of how you feel about what's on the screen. And let's not fool ourselves, AGoT is by far the easiest book to adapt to the screen, that's a softball. It's the rest of the books that are a challenge.

ACOK is fantastic, I liked it much better than AGOT. Season 2, on the other hand... while season 1 was a very satisfying adaptation of AGOT (with some issues like the annoying sexpositon), season 2 managed to not do justice to almost any of the arcs. Arya's arc in ACOK is one of the best in the series, but in the show it was incredibly watered down to make room for some 'fun' scenes with Charles Dance. Sansa had some very good moments, but lost 70% of her storyline (no meeting with Dontos and planning to get away from KL; her relationship with Sandor downplayed and lost all layers except for the "the Hound saves Sansa" aspect); Theon had a good arc (the show even made some really good additions that made Theon more layered and more sympathetic at this point - letter to Robb, calling his father on his attitude to him) until it ended in a muddled and anticlimatic way instead of the spectacular way it does in the book, because they didn't cast Ramsay for season 2; the changes to Jon's storyline made him look like a clueless buffoon; and Dany's storyline was just awful, contained some of the worst dialogue in the show, and didn't manage to do anything except make Dany look like an annoying, immature brat (which she is not in ACOK). When I read ACOK, my only complaint was that we saw little of Robb, but after watching season 2, I wished Robb was absent from most of the TV season, too. I think it was a good idea to give him more screentime and show more of his POV as well as his relationship with his future wife, but the way they wrote Talisa as a character, their relationship, and Robb himself... ugh. I literally roll my eyes whenever I see the scene of their first meeting, it's cringeworthy. There are lots of good or great scenes, too, but almost every episode had some really good stuff mixed with some really bad stuff, the only episodes that were good from start to finish were Blackwater and What Is Dead May Never Die.

D&D were probably afraid to push their (arguably) biggest character to the sidelines for a season. I can understand their concerns from a TV fanbase perspective, but I really think they needed to show confidence in the source material then. Though to be fair, I actually really liked the changes to the HotU scene.

I had no problems with the TV version of the HotU, I quite liked it, and I never expected them to do the book version of HotU anyway, which is IMO unfilmable in the context of the show. But everything else about her time in (and outside) Qarth was just awful.

I understand that they had to invent something more, but what they invented was really bad. And they didn't need to waste so much screentime on a pointless plot in the first place, she could have just been in 4-5 episodes that year, like Bran this season. She's not the only character that the viewers enjoy watching. And I don't believe there were many people who enjoyed watching her that season, anyway.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany just had a huge cliffhanger at the end of S1. There was simply no way to follow that up with her only appearing in ~4 episodes of S2, when it wasn't guaranteed we'd get renewed in the way we know now. I was Unsullied for S2, and I still thought she wasn't appearing enough to my liking. I got almost nothing out of her in the first 3 episodes, and I was expecting her to go places.

I know Jaime appeared in only 4 episodes of S2, but I don't think it's the same.

I agree that Dany probably need to appear a lot in season 2, but they just handled it so badly. Her time in the Red Waste was prolonged, but pretty much inconsequential; there was no sense of her developing leadership there, nor a sense of magic as she "followed" the comet. Here's a faithful adaptation of her material from ACoK, assuming she had to be in 8 episodes (personally I think she should have been in 6 or 7):

1. Dany in the Red Waste - I'd put this right at the end of the episode, to balance Stannis and Cressen which I think belonged at the beginning. I just feel like, after the birth of the dragons, shoving her in the middle of the episode really took away a lot of the sense of divinity surrounding her.

The death of Rakharo (unavoidable due to scheduling conflicts) - but I would have shown his death on-screen, or at least shown his encounter with whichever khal killed him (preferrably Jhaqo). Also include her arrival at Vaes Tolorro (the scenes could have been shot in a garden in Dubrovnik so don't tell me it would have been expensive, and they could have just used the Qartheen walls as the exterior and not shown us the exterior of Qarth).

Not included in episode 3.

Naming the dragons, Jorah's story about his wife, and the arrival of the envoys.

In Xaro's manse, learns of Robert's death.

Given gifts by the Qartheen, Xaro's proposal, witnessing the Fire Mage's power and being told she is responsible for it.

A scene where she asks for assistance from the leaders of Qarth, but obviously better than the one with the Spice King.

House of the Undying - maybe not exactly like the book, but preferrably as close as possible.

Not included in episode 9.

Her exile (basically) from Qarth and the arrival of Arstan, with the final shot her sailing away with "BALERION" written across the ship.

Would this have been well-received? I'm not sure. But I don't think it could have been worse than the reception the dragon-knapping got.

[jaimecersei]

ok episode 7 was actually great. because most of them were book scenes. D&D should just follow the books more often

[Fey]

I'm not enjoying this season either for some reason. After episode 4 or 5, I just had no desire to continue watching the show.

Last episode's bad portrayal of the snow castle scene also kinda soured me on the show. :bang: But I doubt I'll stop watching since the next three episodes ~should~ be good.

[sj4iy]

To me, the episodes in this season, for the most part, just keep getting better. I think we've had some great story progression and great characters to thank for that, plus a lot of plot developments to keep the story moving along. Last season had some very dead spots in it, but this season hasn't had them for me.

[Darryk]

The last two episodes have blown everything out of the water. For me, season 4 has raised the bar extremely high, and we haven't even gotten to the best parts of it yet.

[Haldebrandt]

Anyone else dreading episode 9? I fear D&D will get "creative" and turn the battle into a bloated collection of cliches, complete with heroic deaths and last minute rescue(s).

I also fear it just won't have the dramatic heft audiences have been conditioned to expect from ep9.

[sj4iy]

Anyone else dreading episode 9? I fear D&D will get "creative" and turn the battle into a bloated collection of cliches, complete with heroic deaths and last minute rescue(s).

I also fear it just won't have the dramatic heft audiences have been conditioned to expect from ep9.

Nope, I'm actually looking forward to it the most...having an entire episode at the Wall is going to be awesome. I don't care what gets changed or worry about it, really. I just enjoy the ride, and this episode promises to be thrilling.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

I'm dreading it because of personal preferences (not my favorite storyline, Blackwater battle scenes were generic to me minus wildfire), but given the lack of Wildling presence this season, I am behind giving The Wall an entire episode. It will definitely need it.

[Angmar]

I'm liking much more this season when compared to the last one, I think the last one was just mostly build up for the Red Wedding and nothing else. Here everything is happening and it's much more exciting I think.

[YuvalTheVal]

Last season was absoulutly astonishing in terms of writing, directing and acting, regardless of the slow plot progression. I don't think any season of GOT will ever top this perfection, I remember going "ahhhhh so good" after every single scene.

This one is great too, though.

[rocksniffer]

i am satisfied in this season so far...in fact joyful that things have been happening that i as a book reader so sullied that ....well let's just say surprising me is about as difficult as keeping the Viper out of a brothel...have been shocked by and cheered for. To be able to watch this show, one that i rank high on a series meter, not really knowing what to expect but in a general way, is great...

...of course that is just this sullied old asshole's opinion....feel free to disagree... :smoking:

eta: cause my new laptop is too sensitive