in defense of theon greyjoy

[Jasta11]

Victim blaming, much ? Ned Stark was the one who abducted Theon, thus putting him in this position.

Blame him, if you need to blame anyone.

Abducted? Yeah it's not like Balon rebelled and taking hostages is standard operating procedure after beating a rebellious vassal in Westeros. I'm sure Ned sneaked into Pyke in the dead of night and kidnapped Theon out of pure spite.

[Wmarshal]

If Balon gave so much a damn of Theon being in the North, why didn't he push for another choice? Like Balon himself going to the Watch or staying in KL for a set amount of time?

[INCBlackbird]

He's an adult, not a child. When we are manipulated, especially based not on lies or falsehoods, but purely based on someone playing to our own vanity and ego....then we're not victims in any kind of meaningful sense of the word.

Theon was better off at Winterfell, he says himself the worst "thrashing" he ever got was tender compared to how his own brothers beat him.

So this idea that he grew up with a constant fear of death is BS, excuse making. This is simply not true, and nothing in Theon's POVs supports the idea that he had any kind of fear of death on an ongoing basis.

He's insecure. Part of that insecurity stems from being an "outsider" and from being internally conflicted that everything he sees about the Starks is good, which is why he wants to be like Eddard in his dealings with Winterfell, LOL...but he knows that this is a "wrong" thought, because he's Iron Born, so he is constantly conflicted with the vision of the IB that he has and with feeling he shouldn't identify with the Starks or want to be like them or love them...even though of course he does, as Lady Dustin quite correctly points out.

Theon isn't even partially absolved of his crimes. He knows from almost Day One before he gets to Winterfell that what he is doing is wrong, well before he meets Ramsay. He does it all anyway, because he's weak and insecure.

That makes his story one of the great tragedies of the series, it doesn't make him a victim until he becomes an actual victim after he's taken prisoner.

he is 19 years old and has never had a time to learn how to make his own decisions, he was a prisoner, all the dicisions were made for him. but it doesn't even matter in a situation of manipulation you blame the manipulator, blaming the victim is victim blaming (the word is pretty accurate, don't you think?) adults have weakness that can be exploited too.

theon was under threat of death at winterfell. I couldn't say which situation was better, physical abuse at home, psycholigical abuse at winterfell... it's an entirely different situation, both of them are bad and in both cases theon was an innocent victim.

"nothing in theon's pov's supports the idea that he had any kind of fear of death on an ongoing basis" are you sure about that ? I'll just leave you to ponder what these quotes could possibly mean.

"As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious."

"That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warharnmer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse."

"Boys believe nothing can hurt them, his doubt whispered. Grown men know better."

“This is craven,” Ser Rodrik said. “To use a child so... this is despicable.”

“Oh, I know,” said Theon. “It’s a dish I tasted myself, or have you forgotten? I was ten when I was taken from my father’s house, to make certain he would raise no more rebellions.”

“It is not the same!”

Theon’s face was impassive. “The noose I wore was not made of hempen rope, that’s true enough, but I felt it all the same. And it chafed, Ser Rodrik. It chafed me raw.” He had never quite realized that until now, but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them. "

"The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy’s feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away."

[Wmarshal]

he is 19 years old and has never had a time to learn how to make his own decisions, he was a prisoner, all the dicisions were made for him. but it doesn't even matter in a situation of manipulation you blame the manipulator, blaming the victim is victim blaming (the word is pretty accurate, don't you think?) adults have weakness that can be exploited too.

theon was under threat of death at winterfell. I couldn't say which situation was better, physical abuse at home, psycholigical abuse at winterfell... it's an entirely different situation, both of them are bad and in both cases theon was an innocent victim.

"nothing in theon's pov's supports the idea that he had any kind of fear of death on an ongoing basis" are you sure about that ? I'll just leave you to ponder what these quotes could possibly mean.

"As a boy, he had lived in fear of Starks stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious."

"That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warharnmer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse."

"Boys believe nothing can hurt them, his doubt whispered. Grown men know better."

This is craven, Ser Rodrik said. To use a child so... this is despicable.

Oh, I know, said Theon. Its a dish I tasted myself, or have you forgotten? I was ten when I was taken from my fathers house, to make certain he would raise no more rebellions.

It is not the same!

Theons face was impassive. The noose I wore was not made of hempen rope, thats true enough, but I felt it all the same. And it chafed, Ser Rodrik. It chafed me raw. He had never quite realized that until now, but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them. "

"The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoys feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away."

These excuse aren't even good in our world. He was as much a prisoner as Robb, and Jon. He is no victim, he added in and really a murder. The victims were the boys he had dragged out to die.

No he wasn't, he never was,or ever thought he was. As a hostage sure, barely, but never after he took Winterfell.

[TrueOrFalse]

There is no threat of being killed constantly at hand. This is silly. There is no threat AT ALL unless his father rebels.

Theon was an outsider who was treated with respect, but not like one of the Stark family.

Cry me a river.

Which could have happened at any time. The Ironborn are known for their hostility and unpredictability, not for being peaceful and rational. Fair enough, you don't like Theon and you believe he had it good in Winterfell, no problem...But can't you see how this would have played on his mind?

Because when I put myself in Theon's situation, I don't think I could have felt completely secure at Winterfell. The threat would always be there in the back of my mind.

[INCBlackbird]

There is no threat of being killed constantly at hand. This is silly. There is no threat AT ALL unless his father rebels.

you are digging yourself into a hole here. so you admit that there was a threat of death if Balon rebels, Theon didn't know if he was gonna rebel so he was under constant threat of death! his father could deside any day to set his plan in motion (a plan that was indeed in the making before theon ever returned ot pyke, balon didn't care if it was gonna cost his son his life, he'd mourned theon with his other sons the moment he was shipped off), theon did not know if this was gonna happen, though he knew his father didn't care about him and desparately repressed this idea by romanticizing him, their culture and the rest of his family and you know why? because he was scared! because if his father didn't care about him he might as well rebel again and that would mean his death. in other words, theon lived in constant fear of death.

[Cas Stark]

Snipped...

“This is craven,” Ser Rodrik said. “To use a child so... this is despicable.”

“Oh, I know,” said Theon. “It’s a dish I tasted myself, or have you forgotten? I was ten when I was taken from my father’s house, to make certain he would raise no more rebellions.”

“It is not the same!”

Theon’s face was impassive. “The noose I wore was not made of hempen rope, that’s true enough, but I felt it all the same. And it chafed, Ser Rodrik. It chafed me raw.” He had never quite realized that until now, but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them. "

Are you telling me that you cannot really see that this is Theon attempting to convince himself of something he knows, himself, is totally BS? Like he does, over and over again, once he gets to Winterfell....he blames his own victims, LOL, for forcing him to kill them...they make him do it, it's not his fault, it's their fault...he excuses himself for the mayhem and violence that occurs at Winterfell, but "we" know and "he" knows also that it's all BS. He knows he's responsible for it all, he knows these are BS excuses he's making, but I guess not all readers do. Oh well.

[Cas Stark]

Which could have happened at any time. The Ironborn are known for their hostility and unpredictability, not for being peaceful and rational. Fair enough, you don't like Theon and you believe he had it good in Winterfell, no problem...But can't you see how this would have played on his mind?

Because when I put myself in Theon's situation, I don't think I could have felt completely secure at Winterfell. The threat would always be there in the back of my mind.

I never said he felt or would have felt completely secure at Winterfell. I only say that he was not abused and his affinity for the Starks is not Stockholm syndrome but real. Lady Dustin pegs him completely accurately, he wanted to be a Stark but never could be....he was an outsider and his own birthright was one that would and should reject everything about the Starks as being weak greenlander stuff but, having lived with them, he knows exactly what they are: honorable, just and worth emulating.

[INCBlackbird]

Are you telling me that you cannot really see that this is Theon attempting to convince himself of something he knows, himself, is totally BS? Like he does, over and over again, once he gets to Winterfell....he blames his own victims, LOL, for forcing him to kill them...they make him do it, it's not his fault, it's their fault...he excuses himself for the mayhem and violence that occurs at Winterfell, but "we" know and "he" knows also that it's all BS. He knows he's responsible for it all, he knows these are BS excuses he's making, but I guess not all readers do. Oh well.

he blames his victims because he feels guilty and he's trying to excuse his actions to deal with said guilt... people do it all the time. I don't see how this quote is in any way related to that though. he is not blaming his victims here he is talking about himself and how much he suffered from being a hostage. the situation he was in damaged him, which is pretty logical, I don't see anyone coming out of 10 years of being a prisoner under threat of death without being damaged.

[Trickrs]

Funny how people bashes Theon based on modern days morality. Worse, they took 1-2 bad action to define him as pure evil in a series notorious for not being black-and-white.

[Cas Stark]

he blames his victims because he feels guilty and he's trying to excuse his actions to deal with said guilt... people do it all the time. I don't see how this quote is in any way related to that though. he is not blaming his victims here he is talking about himself and how much he suffered from being a hostage. the situation he was in damaged him, which is pretty logical, I don't see anyone coming out of 10 years of being a prisoner under threat of death without being damaged.

He throws it out to Roderick after he calls him a craven. It's exactly the same thing, Theon justifying something with BS that he knows is not justifiable. That's my view anyway.

But, I guess poor Theon the beaten, abused, psychologically tortured Stockholm snydrome victim isn't responsible for anything he does. It was his bad childhood and his absent father. LOL.

[Wmarshal]

Funny how people bashes Theon based on modern days morality. Worse, they took 1-2 bad action to define him as pure evil in a series notorious for not being black-and-white.

How is child murder ever okay?

[TrueOrFalse]

Funny how people bashes Theon based on modern days morality. Worse, they took 1-2 bad action to define him as pure evil in a series notorious for not being black-and-white.

:agree: Yep, you're absolutely right.

[Trickrs]

How is child murder ever okay?

Lowborn childs, 90% of the named characters wouldn't even care about this. Bran's life probably equals thousands of peasants lifes.

[Wmarshal]

Lowborn childs, 90% of the named characters wouldn't even care about this. Bran's life probably equals thousands of peasants lifes.

To shit noblemen like Tywin, Hoster, and Cersei. Beric, Arya, Thoros, Davos, Edmure, Dany, Doran and Jon would care.

[TrueOrFalse]

How is child murder ever okay?

It's not, but you're dealing with an entirely different set of morals here. I guarantee you, all these "honorable" Northmen who want so desperately to punish Theon for Bran and Rickon's "deaths" won't give a damn about the boys when they find out they were just two low born Miller's sons. Just like when no one but Arya gave a damn when The Hound killed Mycah. To them, he was only a Butcher's boy, after all. Even to the characters who in others ways seem so "honorable". What Theon did was wrong, but if you were to judge them all as harshly as Theon is judged, you'd have to look very hard indeed for an "honorable" character in this series.

[INCBlackbird]

He throws it out to Roderick after he calls him a craven. It's exactly the same thing, Theon justifying something with BS that he knows is not justifiable. That's my view anyway.

But, I guess poor Theon the beaten, abused, psychologically tortured Stockholm snydrome victim isn't responsible for anything he does. It was his bad childhood and his absent father. LOL.

when did I ever say he isn't responsible ? cause I clearly remember stating in my original post that he is still responsible, it's just not as black and white as you make it out to be.

you simply cannot say that being a prisoner under threat of death would make a good childhood that wouldn't damage the child. and he did have stockholm syndrome:

Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages(theon was a hostage) express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors(we have established that theon has these), sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims (threat of death), who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness (after thinking about the thrashing he emmediatly compares it to the beatings his brothers gave him also "he was kind to me but never warm").

all of this does not mean theon was not responsible at all for his actions, it just means he is a grey character that was very well written because he is a product of his environment, just like real people are.

[Trickrs]

To shit noblemen like Tywin, Hoster, and Cersei. Beric, Arya, Thoros, Davos, Edmure, Dany, Doran and Jon would care.

They're people mostly ahead of their times kinda, Arya's very character is so alien from the Middle Ages it's shocking.

Also, the Northern and Rivermen armies burned a lot of crops in the Riverlands to deny the Lannisters from supplies, leading to thousands of kids to starvation, there is any passage pointing that Edmure, Robb and cia aren't related to it?

[Wmarshal]

when did I ever say he isn't responsible ? cause I clearly remember stating in my original post that he is still responsible, it's just not as black and white as you make it out to be.

you simply cannot say that being a prisoner under threat of death would make a good childhood that wouldn't damage the child. and he did have stockholm syndrome:

Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages(theon was a hostage) express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors(we have established that theon has these), sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims (threat of death), who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness (after thinking about the thrashing he emmediatly compares it to the beatings his brothers gave him also "he was kind to me but never warm").

all of this does not mean theon was not responsible at all for his actions, it just means he is a grey character that was very well written because he is a product of his environment, just like real people are.

I am not seeing any of this points to Theon during the miller's kids death. And seeing how we now agree he has responsibility in a child murder I don't see how you can argue he doesn't deserve death.

[TrueOrFalse]

Are you telling me that you cannot really see that this is Theon attempting to convince himself of something he knows, himself, is totally BS? Like he does, over and over again, once he gets to Winterfell....he blames his own victims, LOL, for forcing him to kill them...they make him do it, it's not his fault, it's their fault...he excuses himself for the mayhem and violence that occurs at Winterfell, but "we" know and "he" knows also that it's all BS. He knows he's responsible for it all, he knows these are BS excuses he's making, but I guess not all readers do. Oh well.

So Theon means what he says when he says nice things about the Starks (You pointed out earlier about how he thought of Ned as a role model and all that)

But Theon doesn't mean what he says when he says bad things about the Starks. (As you pointed out above)

That seems awfully convenient.