[tWoIaF spoilers] Summerhall headcount

[Arataniello]

Although we do not get anything approaching a full recounting of the details of Summerhall, is it possibly to speculate who Aegon intended to be the dragon-riders for the seven eggs that he tried to have hatched there?

Candidates are

- Aegon V

- Prince Duncan

- Prince Jaeherys

- Princess Shaera (sp? - wife of Jaeherys)

- Rhaelle Baratheon

- Aerys, son of Jaeherys

- Rhealla, daughter of Jaenerys (unclear if she was actually at Summerhall).

- any as yet unknown children of Duncan and Jenny.

The only other possible candidates I can think of are Maegor (son of Aerion) and Vaella (daughter of Daeron).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps Steffon Baratheon, Rhaelle's son? And Prince Aerys.

As Steffon was Rhaelle's only child (or so it seems), perhaps she had already died by the time Summerhal occured?

[joluoto2]

Rhaegar possibly? He was born at the same time, so maybe Egg hoped that the unborn child of Aerys and Rhaella would fulfill the prophecies that the wood witch spoke off?

[Hardstone]

I thought this thread would speculate on all who would have been there. So with that many royals, you'd have all 7 of the KG which is Dunk, Gerold H and likely Harlan Grandison.

Gyldayn and Pycelle?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I find it quite a largre coincedence that Rhaella gives birth the day of Summerhall. Just saying.

The Kingsguard, the Royal Family, Targaryen guardsmen and servants.

Likely Jenny of Oldstones to, as the Woods Witch who accompanies her (the Ghost of High Heart) says she "gorged on grief at Summerhall" and clearly Jenny was close to her.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

1 - I would not expect Aegon to include anybody from outside House Targaryen. Yandel tells us that Aegon's main goal was to increase his house's political power. Letting a Baratheon, Velaryon, Tarth, Plumm. etc.. bond a dragon would seem to work against that goal. Aegon wouldn't want to risk a future Dance 2.0. So, no Steffon. Rhaelle would be a big maybe.

2 - I would not expect any children of Duncan and Jenny to be on the dragonrider list. As a disinherited older branch, they might well be considered a threat to the new heirs, Jaehaerys and his descendants. Same deal for Maegor and his descendants (if they're still alive and in Westeros.)

Rhaella was there. She was giving birth to Rhaegar.

So -

Aegon

Duncan

Jaehaerys

Shaera

Aerys

Rhaella

Maybe Rhaelle or Rhaegar.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I find it quite a largre coincedence that Rhaella gives birth the day of Summerhall. Just saying.

I understood the text to say it was deliberate. I suspect Aegon was trying to pull off a bit of sympathetic magic. The birth of a dragon (Rhaegar) helping to stimulate the birth of seven more.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Summerhall has parallels to Dany and Drogo's Pyre. There is magic, fire, death and birth. And a sacrifice, so I think Summerhall was a pretty dark incident. My bets on Jenny or Rhaegar being the sacrifice.

I know people say that it is completely unlike Egg, but we have seen what lengths people go to in obtaining a dragon. The Astapori sold their entire army to get one, and looked how that turned out for them....

Maybe maesters were involved also, as they got cold feet when it looked like a dragon might be reborn, so they burnt the house down. Literally.

[BearQueen87]

I find it quite a largre coincedence that Rhaella gives birth the day of Summerhall. Just saying.

Yup, I don't think that's a coincidence at all. Aegon wanted a dragon(s) back in the world and he got one---but not the flying lizard kind.

As to the headcount, I agree with Ibbison from Ibben that it likely would just be the Targaryen's.

Aegon

Jaehaerys II

Shaera

Duncan

Aerys

Rhaella

Rhaegar (who was expected to arrive at any moment...and again I agree that Egg might have understood that Rhaegar's birth would be necessary for the rest of the magic to happen)

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that the first-choice dragonriders - that is, those Egg would hand a hatchling as soon as the eggs hatched - would have been:

1. He himself, of course. He really wanted to have dragons, and to ride one.

2. Prince Duncan

3. Prince Jaehaerys - he was his heir, and the one who would eventually continue his work. He needed the means to cow the Lords of the Realm despite his frail and crippled body.

4. Princess Shaera, the future queen

5. Prince Aerys - next in line to the Iron Throne after Jaehaerys.

6. Princess Rhaella, possibly the mother of the promised prince

7. This one is tricky - possibly any children Duncan and Jenny had (if they had any), Rhaelle/Steffon, Prince Maegor, Maegor's children, or his mother Daenora, if she was still alive, Selwyn Tarth, or any other descendants of Rhae/Daella.

I assume Daella and Rhae may have been already been dead at Summerhall, as Rhaella really seems to be named after both Rhae and Daella, possibly in their memory.

But even if they were still alive, my guess is that besides of himself Targaryens of the age of Daenora, Daella, and Rhae would have only gotten spare dragons rather than the first picks, as they would most likely die sooner rather than later.

I doubt that Rhaegar would have been among them, as Egg most likely would have intended him to inherit his dragon after his death.

As to who was there:

I go with the interpretation that '... the blood of the dragon gathered in one ...' suggests that all the Targaryens alive gathered at Summerhall, many/all close cadet branches included. This does not mean that all of them are supposed to get a dragon, just that their presence was deemed necessary for the magical ritual to work...

That suggests we have

- Egg, Betha, and all her living children (Duncan, his wife Jenny, Jaehaerys, Shaera, possibly Rhaelle)

- Egg's grandchildren (all the children of Duncan/Jenny - if they had any -, Aerys and Rhaella, Steffon Baratheon)

- Egg's surviving nephews and nieces, and possibly their children (Maegor and Vaella Targaryen)

- Egg's surviving siblings, and their descendants (Maester Aemon, Daella, Rhae, Selwyn Tarth, and possibly his mother)

I guess that would be all the kin of House Targaryen summoned to Summerhall. I'm not sure if the Martells or the descendants of Elaena, let alone those Rhaena and Baela, were still considered to have enough dragon blood to be included.

Besides that, only Egg's close friends would have been there, not necessarily many people from court. As we don't know anything about Egg's friends at this point, it is really hard to guess. I assume if Rhaelle and Steffon were there, Lord Ormund could have been there, too. With Gyldayn, Egg had a maester, so perhaps even Pycelle was not there... We have no reason to believe that Egg trusted him all that much. Perhaps there were additional Kingsguard beside Dunk, but that should have been it.

There is no reason to believe that Tywin was there. He and Aerys were close, but there is no reason to believe that Egg invited him to Summerhall.

People who died there include:

- Aegon V, and possibly Queen Betha as well, if she was still alive

- Ser Duncan the Tall

- Archmaester Gyldayn (although possibly only in the wake of the tragedy)

- Prince Duncan, Jenny, and possibly all of his children (again, if they had any)

- Princesses Daella, Rhae, Daenora, Vaella, and Rhaelle, if they were were there

- Prince Maegor, and his children, if he/they were there

- possibly the mother of Selwyn Tarth, if she was there

The idea that Egg intended to sacrifice somebody of his family does not convince me. I do not think that Summerhall mimics Drogo's pyre, especially not since it should have worked if that was the case - after all, many people burned to death there. The idea that Targaryens have to die to hatch dragon eggs is not really supported by AGoT.

Rhaegar's birth was also to be celebrated there. This does not suggest that Egg wanted to kill him - or any member of his family, most certainly not himself, as he clearly wanted dragons to continue his policy...

[jet199]

I think it is likely that Aerys had a dragon dream which showed a dragon being born out of the flames of Summerhall and promptly set fire to it.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I go with the interpretation that '... the blood of the dragon gathered in one ...' suggests that all the Targaryens alive gathered at Summerhall, many/all close cadet branches included. This does not mean that all of them are supposed to get a dragon, just that their presence was deemed necessary for the magical ritual to work...

If Aegon was going to gather all the blood of the dragon in one place, he would have been forced to rebuild and renovate the Dragonpit, and hold the gathering there. :drunk: And as I have said before, Yandel recounts that Aegon "..summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall,...", which doesn't support that interpretation.

That fragment is certainly carefully crafted to be deceptive and ambiguous, just like all the prophesies. I would be leery of using it to reach conclusions.

The idea that Egg intended to sacrifice somebody of his family does not convince me. I do not think that Summerhall mimics Drogo's pyre, especially not since it should have worked if that was the case - after all, many people burned to death there. The idea that Targaryens have to die to hatch dragon eggs is not really supported by AGoT.

Rhaegar's birth was also to be celebrated there. This does not suggest that Egg wanted to kill him - or any member of his family, most certainly not himself, as he clearly wanted dragons to continue his policy...

I fully agree with this. In another thread I joked that perhaps Aegon chucked Rhaegar's placenta on the fire, but that's about as far as I think he would go.

[Bael's Bastard]

If these were all still alive going into Summerhall (except Rhaegar, who was going to be born soon), I think they would be the intended seven,

* Aegon V Targaryen

* Duncan Targaryen

* Jaehaerys (II) Targaryen

* Shaera Targaryen

* Aerys (II) Targaryen

* Rhaella Targaryen

* Rhaegar Targaryen

I think Egg would have only given dragons to Targaryen women who were married to Targaryen husbands. I don't think he would have given one to his daughter, who was married to a Baratheon.

[The hairy bear]

I would guess that he chose seven eggs for religious reasons, rather than having exactly seven dragon riders in mind.

In any case, when identifying candidates with Targaryen blood, there are the children of Daella and Rhae (Aegon's nephews and nieces). They do not appear in the family tree, but in AFFC maester Aemon confirmed their existence.

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

could the 'those closest to him' quote not also mean/extend to closest kin? It is ambiguous, of course, but Egg trying to hatch seven eggs instead of, say, one, suggests that his study of ancient Asshai'i and Valyrian dragonlore really may have yielded some results, leading to his decision to assemble as many dragon-blooded people as possible there.

Since this whole thing was such a huge tragedy, the amount of dead dragons should really outweigh the amount of survivors - Jaehaerys II, Shaera Aerys, Rhaella are pretty much, so I'd really see more dead Targaryens there than just Egg, Betha, Prince Duncan, and Jenny...

[Stannis's birthright]

I think it more likely that Egg would of sacrificed himself before he did others . I can see him sacrificing himself so that the dragons would be hatch and his family would ride them again . That is most in line with his personality

[Lord Varys]

No, it is not. And it completely contradicts the purpose behind the restoration of the dragons. Egg did not want his family to have dragons, he wanted dragons to continue his reforms. Reforms, he most likely knew, that were his own desire, not so much the desire of his family. I imagine Duncan was with him in all of that, but Jaehaerys apparently cared much less for this kind of thing. And Aerys certainly did not.

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah, I think pretty much all Targaryens came to and were wiped out at Summerhall. It is explicitly said that the tragedies of Egg's reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches. There may be descendants of Blackfyres or bastards, but I don't think any legitimate Targaryens survived Summerhall except the lines we know of, Jaehaerys II, Aerys (II), Rhaella, Rhaegar (not sure about Shaera and Rhaelle).

[Maia]

Lord Varys:

Tywin could have been Egg's squire. He was a "newly made" knight during the War of Ninepenny Kings, after all. We know that he used to be a royal page, but I can't imagine him and Aerys getting so close, if they just spent a couple of years together, rather than their whole adolescence.

Also, GRRM has people being squires at unrealistically young ages of 8+ (it was 14+ iRL, for obvious reasons), and by that measure Tywin had been already a bit old for being a page at 10.

Reforms, he most likely knew, that were his own desire, not so much the desire of his family. I imagine Duncan was with him in all of that, but Jaehaerys apparently cared much less for this kind of thing. And Aerys certainly did not.

To be fair to Jaehaerys, between the PR disaster of Summerhall and the war, he was under a lot of pressure when he took back some of Egg's reforms. He may not have wanted to do it. Aerys, yes, but did Egg know about it? Given how changeable he was, he may have been in support of the reforms back then, just to do a 180 later.

[Tyrion's Wife]

Could someone be so kind as to post the relevant paragraph from the book here please? Still no book, and I'm really curious as to what you are talking about :/