[BOOK SPOILERS] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Good Guy Garlan]

There really is a lot ofgratuitous nudity in the books too. Just off the top of my head, I can think of some examples:

- The Qartheen gown. There could've been other ways of showing the differences/decadence of Qarth and that Xaro was gay

- Speaking of Xaro, the fucking dancers (literally) in aDwD are ridiculous

- The Ironborn girl who randomly comes running out of some bushes showing bush and throwing axes

- Dany x Irri

- Arianne's nipples

And I'm sure people could interpret all of these examples in a why that justifies them thematically, but the same can be done with many scenes from the show if one has enough time, like:

- Myranda and the other woman getting naked before Ramsay castrates Theon: they represent all the sex that Theon will never have again, and it's also karmic in a way because he always treated women and their sexuality as a mere object and looked down at them, but now these naked women are looking down at him at he gets his penis cut off

So I think, in the end it's all subjective (as everything).

But the show really is sexist, though, and it really uses nude women as background props a lot of the time, in my opinion, even if the books do the same, albeit maybe less

[Johnsmith]

Agreed Fish there is a hell of a lot in the books, but generally it is quite themed by its characters, rather then just another brothel story

[Bud RR Martin]

Release the rights to an Anime version I would watch that

I'm not a fan of anime, but would like to see a 100% faithful animated creation of the books. It would have to be in cartoon form due to the expense.

[TheWeepingKnight]

Difference being I personally never found the book stuff ridculous whereas I was laughing at the execution of the Theon. Curious how the hell the dancers were "ridiculous"

[Prince of the North]

What pisses me off about D&D is that they treated Ian Mchelhinney as a prop until the untimely death of his character, right before he got his (really good) storyline. I mean, I don't even think they did it intentionally, like some sort of mean-spirited prank or whatever, but they totally gave him short shrift and I think that's kind of disrespectful.

I think this was pretty blatantly done in order to give Ser Barristan's story in the books to Tyrion and Jorah in the show. They'll give, at least, Ser Barristan's fight scene with the pit fighter to Jorah and they'll give the rest of Barristan's Meereen governing dilemmas (because Dany literally flew the coop) to Tyrion.

[Johnsmith]

I'm not a fan of anime, but would like to see a 100% faithful animated creation of the books. It would have to be in cartoon form due to the expense.

It could really be epic if 100% adapted to source. Obviously done once the books are fully released, but I would love to watch that Anime/Cartoon.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Difference being I personally never found the book stuff ridculous whereas I was laughing at the execution of the Theon. Curious how the hell the dancers were "ridiculous"

The girls leaped into the air and then landed right on the dude's stiff dicks. That's not only ridiculous. It defies the laws of physics and sounds incredibly painful for everyone involved. It's like GRRM went to the Cirque du Soleil and thought, "This is super boring. Needs more girls landing on penises"

I can't even fathom the shit D&D would get if they come up with something like that

[The Kind Nihilist]

Yeah, I think the fourth episode is the worst as well. The writing was ATROCIOUS and even a couple of the performances missed the mark, which is a rare thing in this show.

What was up with Lena Headey? Was it just me, or was she weird this week? She was so... smiley.

I think that actually made sense, as she was likely anticipating her 'brilliantly-hatched' plan coming to fruition, with Loras arrested by the end of the episode. Book Cersei also had these bouts of good humour when she felt her scheming was about to bare fruit.

God, that's hilarious.

But yeah, this is what I mean about Mel being the most poorly adapted character. More than Larry or Stannis, even. Book Melisandre was a very intriguing character, grey in morality, polite, mysterious, powerful and charismatic. Arguably on the good side despite everything. Show Mel... is a sadistic loon who has had all of her better qualities cut and can't do anything without pulling out her tits.

I still think the Mel-Gendry scene is the worst one in the show. For many reasons. There are some tough competitors, though. Like Batfinger's "avenge them". Or the Sept rape. Or the scene where Stannis decides to go the Wall (another Mel scene).

Just compare this to the book scene. They're night and day, and really reflect what the show is in a nutshell.

Book: Mel and Jon talk about leadership and the Others. She warns Jon to beware of his enemies and keep his direwolf close. She throws in "You know nothing" partly as a response to him doubting her power, despite her visions proving at least somewhat accurate before.

Show: Mel takes off her clothes and grabs Jon's dick.

When you put it like that, it's even more ridiculous lol

[Rippounet]

I did, but that doesn't make it a tasteful scene.

I actually love the fact that Tyrion's alcoholism is shown in this disgusting, realistic way. Alcoholism isn't pretty or cool. People who use booze to escape their problems do often end up in the gutter or puking on themselves -literally.

So I don't know what we mean by "tasteful". Vomit isn't tasteful to most of us when we see or smell it. A fictional character's fall and decadence symbolized by him covered in his own filth on the other hand... I'd say this may be aesthetically tasteful. In fact, maybe this is missing from the show to show people that alcohol is f***ing nasty in real life, and that being witty doesn't change the fact that you're destroying yourself. Tyrion is way too cool in the show, he should be closer to pathetic by now.

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

It kills me that everyone who has read the books hates most of 3, 4, and 5 for the unnecessary wandering and terrible character introductions, but for too many of this group anything that they don't like in the revised, streamlined material is THE WORST THING EVER I GIVE IT A 3 HOW CAN THEY RUIN THE SHOW THEY SHOULD TAKE IT OFF THE AIR. Grievances with elements are one thing, but the hysteria is over the top for what remains a detailed, (mostly) well-acted, complex, and well-written program.

If you read through these Rant and Rave threads you'll acually notice that most of us don't hate books 4&5 , at least that's what I've gathered reading&participating in these threads since Season 5 started.The ones who hate or deeply dislike aFFC&aDWD are a minority.

[Johnsmith]

The girls leaped into the air and then landed right on the dude's stiff dicks. That's not only ridiculous. It defies the laws of physics and sounds incredibly painful for everyone involved. It's like GRRM went to the Cirque du Soleil and thought, "This is super boring. Needs more girls landing on penises"

I can't even fathom the shit D&D would get if they come up with something like that

Could park a truck... that takes a special type of contortionist....

Where was that reference I do not recall?

[Lordsteve666]

I think what really grates with me is that the time they have in each episode is so very precious because realistically each one is what, 45-50 mins long? So when they add in pointless nude shots and overly-long fights to make it look cool and trendy to the non-book fans it really spoils what could potentially be amazing TV.

The story GRRM wrote is one of the best in the fantasy genre at the moment and well deserving of the show time it has, but D&D are pissing all over that legacy and making a mockery of it. They are justing picking ad hoc all their favorite bits or the bit they think will give their own telling of the story. Trouble is they clearly have no idea what they are doing now as many changes are going flying in the face of the original charcters or settings or plotlines.

It really does feel like it's going down the route of fan-fiction written by guys who have really missed the point in a lot of the story, I shiver at the thought of S6 & S7 once they are fresh out of books to work with.

[The Kind Nihilist]

I disagree with almost everything here.

"Book readers will be dissatisfied every way"

--> I don't think so. Most readers are fairly happy with at least the first three seasons, whatever may be said here and there.

"If you locked ten book readers into a room to write the script for season 5, you would have a second Red Wedding in eight hours."

--> I think you'd be more likely to end up with 10 seasons of 24 episodes. :)

Jokes aside, all book readers would have to agree on a faithful adaptation, even if everyone would have their own favorite characters and events.

"Everybody has their own preferences and there is not one scenario that would please everybody."

--> And yet, almost everyone seemed very pleased (to say the least) with at least season 1. And a handful of scenes in season 5 are still praised by pretty much everybody. It is actually way easier to satisfy people then one might think.

This idea that everyone has their own preferences is based on the assumption that Game of Thrones cuts material from the books and makes minor changes. It doesn't do that anymore. What it's doing now is inventing a different story.

"Yes, D&D screw stuff up and make bad decisions and bad episodes and bad scenes, I don't like a lot of their decisions either, but they have a reason for each and every decision and alteration"

--> Do they? We've just seen that the inclusion of Ollie was just an idea an assistant had.

In fact it's obvious they don't have reasons for their decisions. They are just taking liberties with the source material. Because they don't respect it anymore, because they think they can overlook it, because they lack time or motivation to do a more faithful adaptation.

I think you have to realize we're not talking about D&D making "decisions", as in "deciding what to cut or what to change" anymore. We're talking about D&D writing their own story, which is now only loosely based on the books.

You claim there are reasons. I'll say there is only one. Most of the time when people adapt a book or books for the screen they feel the need to improve it. Sometimes they say this is because TV or the cinema works differently. The truth of it is that they want to add their own ideas. They want their own small piece of the success brought by the original source material. If the adapter is talented enough, sometimes it works. If they are not, the result goes from mediocre to dreadful. Pride I say, if not hubris.

I think in the Game of Thrones case, book readers are being a bit quicker in recognizing that the quality is disapearing from the show, because they can see alternative possibilities which would have worked better. But this quality issue is not just a fantasy created by book snobs. There are real problems with the in-show continuity, intrigue and dialogue appearing. Problems that weren't there in previous seasons, and which eventually may become obvious to everyone.

I only have one Unsullied friend to regularly discuss GoT with, so that's not much to go with, but he summed up these four episodes in one word: disapointing.

And I'm tempted to repeat: so what? I'm confident most people read the books only once and don't go to forums to discuss theories and plot details. This doesn't mean they don't enjoy the books.

What you're saying is basically that because most people don't pay attention to detail the details don't have to exist. I beg to differ. Quality is in the details.

I think it's insulting to assume that nobody will, or that nobody will care.

That really depends on what happens during those 3 minutes.

How long does Shireen appear on screen for example? Wouldn't it be 5 minutes here and there? Maybe 10 minutes per season so far? And yet she's been a great character.

:bowdown:

[RhaenysBee]

I disagree with almost everything here.

"Book readers will be dissatisfied every way"

--> I don't think so. Most readers are fairly happy with at least the first three seasons, whatever may be said here and there.

"If you locked ten book readers into a room to write the script for season 5, you would have a second Red Wedding in eight hours."

--> I think you'd be more likely to end up with 10 seasons of 24 episodes. :)

Jokes aside, all book readers would have to agree on a faithful adaptation, even if everyone would have their own favorite characters and events.

"Everybody has their own preferences and there is not one scenario that would please everybody."

--> And yet, almost everyone seemed very pleased (to say the least) with at least season 1. And a handful of scenes in season 5 are still praised by pretty much everybody. It is actually way easier to satisfy people then one might think.

This idea that everyone has their own preferences is based on the assumption that Game of Thrones cuts material from the books and makes minor changes. It doesn't do that anymore. What it's doing now is inventing a different story.

"Yes, D&D screw stuff up and make bad decisions and bad episodes and bad scenes, I don't like a lot of their decisions either, but they have a reason for each and every decision and alteration"

--> Do they? We've just seen that the inclusion of Ollie was just an idea an assistant had.

In fact it's obvious they don't have reasons for their decisions. They are just taking liberties with the source material. Because they don't respect it anymore, because they think they can overlook it, because they lack time or motivation to do a more faithful adaptation.

I think you have to realize we're not talking about D&D making "decisions", as in "deciding what to cut or what to change" anymore. We're talking about D&D writing their own story, which is now only loosely based on the books.

You claim there are reasons. I'll say there is only one. Most of the time when people adapt a book or books for the screen they feel the need to improve it. Sometimes they say this is because TV or the cinema works differently. The truth of it is that they want to add their own ideas. They want their own small piece of the success brought by the original source material. If the adapter is talented enough, sometimes it works. If they are not, the result goes from mediocre to dreadful. Pride I say, if not hubris.

I think in the Game of Thrones case, book readers are being a bit quicker in recognizing that the quality is disapearing from the show, because they can see alternative possibilities which would have worked better. But this quality issue is not just a fantasy created by book snobs. There are real problems with the in-show continuity, intrigue and dialogue appearing. Problems that weren't there in previous seasons, and which eventually may become obvious to everyone.

I only have one Unsullied friend to regularly discuss GoT with, so that's not much to go with, but he summed up these four episodes in one word: disapointing.

And I'm tempted to repeat: so what? I'm confident most people read the books only once and don't go to forums to discuss theories and plot details. This doesn't mean they don't enjoy the books.

What you're saying is basically that because most people don't pay attention to detail the details don't have to exist. I beg to differ. Quality is in the details.

I think it's insulting to assume that nobody will, or that nobody will care.

That really depends on what happens during those 3 minutes.

How long does Shireen appear on screen for example? Wouldn't it be 5 minutes here and there? Maybe 10 minutes per season so far? And yet she's been a great character.

It really comes down to what group of book readers you look at. You will always find people who will be dissatisfied. More or less, or more, or less. You can find book readers who are still satisfied. And you could find book readers who weren't satisfied in the beginning either. Personally I thought season 1 was amazing, season 2 terrible, season 3 a pass, season 4 really good and I have mixed feelings about season 5 so far. Also, the reasons why each book reader doesn't like a season, a scene or an episode are multiple.

That would be an ideal deal, I think :) :thumbsup: 10 seasons with 24 episodes. But just reading this thread or any Gen Asoiaf thread really gives me the opposite idea.

You don't know that. You can't know that. You can of course assume that it's all out of disrespect but why on God's earth would they disrespect their own work? You can of course assume it's all to spite fans and show they have the upper hand. You might be right, we will never know. But I personally want to assume that it's because they have their own reasons. Admittedly, I never managed to think of a reason for "Olly bring me my sword".

And I can't blame them. If I were in their place I would want to add my own ideas too and the adaptation would end up being one hell of a bloody Disney movie. As for making up their own story, I must say at this point, they have no other choice. I must say it makes me more mad to have to turn 30 most likely before I find out who are Jon's parents than seeing by-all-logic 10 year old Tommen have a wedding night with Margaery. Or.. equally mad. And I agree with you that the first two episodes, along with this last one were disappointing. However, I don't think they were disappointing because of the changes, the nudity or the non book scenes. And of course it is everybody's right to find them disappointing for whatever reason, all I'm trying to get through here is to be reasonable and at least try to understand the other perspective. Less anger, less stress, less wrinkles.

You are tempted to say: so what. Well tell me, WHY do hard core book fans deserve more acknowledgement when creating the show than fans who are fans of the show and not the books? Why is it more right to fit the adaptation to their taste than to fit it show viewers' taste? Are fans who read the books ten times better fans than I am because I only read them one and a fifth times? Am I a better fan than someone who only watches the show? Nobody is better and nobody can expect their opinions to be taken into consideration more than the other opinions. We are all audience and nobody is pointing a gun at us on Sunday nights to sit down and watch the show.

True enough. With some creativity, they could have given Sansa a cute Shireen plot. But they didn't :dunno:

[Houndbird]

I think this was pretty blatantly done in order to give Ser Barristan's story in the books to Tyrion and Jorah in the show. They'll give, at least, Ser Barristan's fight scene with the pit fighter to Jorah and they'll give the rest of Barristan's Meereen governing dilemmas (because Dany literally flew the coop) to Tyrion.

I agree. Sad

[kissdbyfire]

The meltdown that is the show has really whetted my appetite for WoW. Sadly, that won't be out for years.

I think it will be out before series 6 premieres. Wishful thinking?

Sad really... I respected the Thenns in the book...

I know. The one thing I can say about D&D's butchering of characters is that it's not biased; they will gladly butcher from major PoV characters, to secondary, tertiary, and now even characters that do not appear at all like Rhaegar.

What pisses me off about D&D is that they treated Ian Mchelhinney as a prop until the untimely death of his character, right before he got his (really good) storyline. I mean, I don't even think they did it intentionally, like some sort of mean-spirited prank or whatever, but they totally gave him short shrift and I think that's kind of disrespectful.

Definitely. And Benioff's remarks about wanting to kill him off even more because he took the time and was interested enough to try and make a point in favour of the character was absolutely crass and appalling and disgusting.

[RhaenysBee]

Ad Hominem is attack on an individual's character... saying that we are being unhealthy, or imply that we are not reasonable IS an Ad Hominem attack.. it means that the only way to get your point across is to belittle our character or personal beliefs....

being blunt by telling you to leave or deal is not an ad homenim attack...it is the rules of this thread...

I did not suggest your character in not reasonable. I suggested that your behavior in this thread is not reasonable. Character is what's behind the behavior people see, the 9/10 of the ice berg. Nobody could assume anything about your character.

It's not an ad homenin attack, but very rude and undue. And being the feeble human I am, gets answered by more unnecessary rudeness. I'm sorry about that.

[kissdbyfire]

I actually love the fact that Tyrion's alcoholism is shown in this disgusting, realistic way. Alcoholism isn't pretty or cool. People who use booze to escape their problems do often end up in the gutter or puking on themselves -literally.

So I don't know what we mean by "tasteful". Vomit isn't tasteful to most of us when we see or smell it. A fictional character's fall and decadence symbolized by him covered in his own filth on the other hand... I'd say this may be aesthetically tasteful. In fact, maybe this is missing from the show to show people that alcohol is f***ing nasty in real life, and that being witty doesn't change the fact that you're destroying yourself. Tyrion is way too cool in the show, he should be closer to pathetic by now.

Precisely. It's not supposed to be a 'tasteful scene'. In fact, it's meant to be quite the opposite.

[Johnsmith]

Precisely. It's not supposed to be a 'tasteful scene'. In fact, it's meant to be quite the opposite.

I think the main criticism was Varys added, this which leads where. We all should understand why he is a retch at this point. Although it hasn't built to where he finds later solace and love because that won't happen now will it?

Or quite in understanding his full reasoning through his repeated line and thought process.

[Elba the Intoner]

So, yeah this episode was about as underwhelming as it gets. Honestly I didn't even care all that much about Barristan as horrible as that sounds. I thought it would be Grey Worm given how they have been building up this romance between him and Missandei and I figured he would be killed and that would take the place of the story in the books where Missandei is sad over the Unsullied who was killed who turned out to be her brother.

I can think of two scenes that I liked, the one where Jaime sees Tarth and the one with Stannis and Shireen. That's about it. Well, okay I admit I did feel bad for ineffectual Tommen. At least he didn't want to cause any more violence but the poor kid is in way over his head. Then there was the one scene that made me want to barf which was the scene with Mel and Jon! The scene with Sansa in the crypts of Winterfell would have been the perfect opportunity for a Ned flashback or a dream but no. They have to give LF more lines from other characters instead.

Okay so something has been bothering me about Lena's portrayal of Cersei and it has been building up for a while but this episode really irked me. What's with her whispering? I can barely hear her these days. It was really bad in the last episode and I had to turn up the volume of the TV. I think the actors for the most part have been great given the material they have, except for Aiden Gillen who has been erratic, and I had liked Lena's portrayal of Cersei but this whispering is just really getting on my nerves and distracting me. Oh well I guess this is a minor nitpick at this point.

Is Jorah really planning to take Tyrion all the way to Meereen on that itty bitty boat? I have news for you Jorah, you're gonna need a bigger boat. (Like, perhaps he could use a ship like the one Jaime and Bronn used to get to Dorne, though apparently Dorne is the one place you don't need a bigger boat since there are no sharks in Dorne.)

So more questions to add to the list of illogical, I don't understand how this makes sense, storyline -

How is LF going to go back to King's Landing and present himself to Cersei after what he did to kidnap Sansa?

LF is a gambling man? WTF! So much for knowledge is power back in season 1.

Mel keeps on spouting that she knows where the real fight is yet she wants Jon and Stannis to go South to take Winterfell and she wants to go too?