Refugee Crisis 2 - a warm welcome in Germany

[DireWolfSpirit]

The wiser countries will take the most and will reap the greatest benefit. Immigration equals growth and future prosperity for the aging demograph countries. Think Las Vegas vs. Detroit for a model of what 2 areas experience with inflow vs outflow.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

 

 

 

So I guess Greece economic woes will be history shortly with these immigrant waves. Maybe the already rich countries of Northern Europe should send some back to help them out further.

Why Greece? That country is already quite well off by global standards. It would be far more fair for the Western world, that already has so much, to stop hoarding these walking growth generators all for ourselves. They ought to be sent to countries that really need economic development, such as Kenya, Pakistan, Ethiopia, or one of the other countless poor nations around the globe. "More schools, more hospitals, more infrastructure, more consumer demand, more professional services" etc etc, who would say no to that? I say it is high time for the Western world to give something back to all the countries that were exploited by colonialism, and thus we should let them reap the massive benefits of immigration and multiculturalism instead of us. :)

[Enguerrand]

But we're not really talking about large scale migration here. Even if every single Syrian who have left their home end up in Europe, which is hardly likely, the change in population would hardly be felt.

 
Depends on which country you are talking about, In Sweden immigrants from Africa and the Middle east currently consist of about 16% of the population which certainly quailifies as large scale, although Sweden immigration per capita is extreme by European standards.
  

Yep. If every single Syrian moved to the EU, the EU's population would rise by about 5%. The number of migrants is very large in absolute terms, but it is small relative to the population already around.

 
Except the Syrians are only group among many, Syrien, Afghanistan, Irak, Eritrea and Somalia has over a hundred million people combined, Even in middle eastern and african countries not ravaged by war studies indicates that between 20-40% of .the population would move to the West if they could.

[Ojji]

https://youtu.be/KVWAIKoatWM?t=1

 

Here's an interesting document about the immigration in Germany.

Sweden has the same problems. European immigration does not work.

 

In one case, even after living 20 years in Germany, the children are still taught that women are objects of men, and that it's okay for the man to discipline the women - which contradicts with the constitution of Germany.

It would be great to see some of the bigger feminists circles to take issue with this and raise awareness, but as per usual - when it comes to immigration and race, the feminists are nowhere to be seen..

 

e: link fixed

[Shryke]

 

This is pure nonsense. Large scale immigration are almost always a threat to the present residents. There are many multicultural empires that's been successful throughout history for a time, Usually with one dominant ethnic group keeping order with able fair and harsh rulers. The trouble is that they are fragile constructs and when things fall apart these territories dissolve into their ethnic and religious parts and endless conflicts. These issues are the core behind almost every war in human history. Hitler justification for starting his wars was the mistreatment of ethnic germans in other countries. Ukrainians are killed while we speak because the Russian 20th century migration and colonisation of Ukraine gives Putin an excuse to "protect them".

The same reason the Baltic states are so worried about  their large russian minorities. it leaves them vulnerable to Russian demands and with potential enemies in their midst. Syria Iraq, Afghanistan are all these culturally ethnically and religious enriched melting pots yet it seems to bring them nothing but dysfunctional government, atrocities and misery.

You can see the same thing the USA, whenever central control falls apart and you have riots in the streets, like Los Angeles or New Orleans people forget nationality and fall back on more natural divides, language, ethnicity, religion.if government control couldn't be re-established the divides would quickly become permanent.

 

Yeah, and that's why the British Americans, Scottish Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans, French Americans and various other people's in the US  all come together in times of crisis against the African Americans. Cause these people are all totally a common language, ethnicity, religion and culture that is distinct from the language and ethnicity and religion and culture of the other group. It's not like all the people you are lumping together here come from wildly different groups that have in living memory tried to wipe each other off the face of the earth.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Most of the poorer nations aren't good examples for the benefits of immigrations because they usually dont have an ageing demographic. Its the populations with negative birthrate (Japan) or low replacement rate,
that are particularly well positioned to benefit from immigration. Common sense that you dont want too low of a workforce participation to support balooning retirement population. In these societies (including W.Euro) imigration is a blessing the countries should be thankful over.

[HobbsTuna]

 

I mean, every penny spent in foreign aid: membership of every international body including NATO, the EU, and the UN: a major part of the justification for every single military action we have engaged in since the Falklands: international treaties including climate change agreements: this is just a selection, off the top of my head, of the foreign policies engaged in by UK governments of all stripes that are at least in part motivated by a perceived duty to the international community and non-citizens of the UK. All of these things also have benefits of some kind for UK citizens, yes - but those benefits accrue as a consequence of fulfilling those duties to the international community.

 

You should keep to reality. And the reality is, no nation exists in a vacuum. That means every nation has duties and obligations to the others, just as everyone in any community does.

 

Funnily enough I would have counted nearly every example you proposed as Data supporting my point of view.

 

Yes, international treaties exist and the participants keep to them as long as both sides profit from them (or at least think so). Note: profiting in this context can also mean: You keep to this and we won't fuck you up. The death sentence of an international treaty is spoken when one of the signatories perceives better options. Institutional inertia can make it stumble on for a few more years but it's dead on its feed.

 

Last time I checked the UK had serious political forces proposing to leave both EU and NATO. Funnily enough the justifications always seem to run along the line, "these clubs cost as more than they benefit us" as opposed to "they are insufficient idealistic." 

 

Also, yes human rights and somebody-think-of-the-children and let's-rescue-the-kitten are quite often given as reasons for military intervention; I think that's what we refer to as propaganda. I feel fairly secure in saying that you would have a hard time gathering a majority of Iraqis saying that all the freedom you brought them was a good thing.

 

 

While The US nowadays has rather strict immigration laws, for centuries it did not. Germans and Irishmen came to the US in the 19th century in droves, without any hand picking of who could or couldn't enter. In the early 20th century, Italians and Eastern Europeans followed suit. Do you really want to argue that those migrants were a net negative for the USA? Many of them fled from starvation, war or political oppression.

Similarly, Germany had large immigration waves that also benefitted the country in the long run. The French Huguenot refugees that were accepted by Prussia in the 18th century were beneficial for the country. In the late 19th century, millions of Poles migrated to the Ruhrgebiet, fueling the economic boom there. Similarly, in the 1950ies, many Italians came to Germany, helping make the Wirtschaftswunder possible. Do I need to go on? Because if I wanted to, I absolutely could. For example, there would be no Swiss watch manufacturing any more if it weren't for a family of Lebanese immigrants.

 

As for the "not crumbling" comment, judging by some people here, it should have, considering these same people also consider the stream of refugees to Germany the nail in the coffin of the Decline of the West. I think demonstrating, first, that far larger relative numbers of refugees didn't hurt an economy 25 years in, and then pointing out that the longer this goes on, the smaller any potential problems become, isn't an unreasonable proposition. Basically, the further we shift our focus to migration in the past, the easier it becomes for us to see the migration from back then as a net positive. This really isn't a radical statement, I thought. 

 

Seriously?

 

That's what you got to support your point?

 

Examples from societies in early industrialization or subsistence farming with no social safety net to speak of are totally relevant for a modern information economies, that is trying/failing to provide social mobility and minimum living standards to it's citizens. We should totally ignore modern studies for that kind of compelling evidence. :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

 

Any other 19 century policies you would like us to adopt because it worked so well back than? Maybe we should provoke a war with France and take Alsace Lorraine back? Zombie Bismark for Chancellor, hell yeah.

 

Even your most modern example, a fresh 60 years out of date and perceived in time, when unemployment rates where hovering around 1%, brought us the greatest group (Turks) of assimilation failure with all the attendant fun stuff of quasi ethnic ghettos, education failure and people who in third generation speak worse German than their parents.

 

Regarding "crumbling", you are doing at again. First of all you didn't show that "larger relative numbers of refugees didn't hurt an economy 25 years". Newsflash you haven't shown anything regarding Switzerland's economy, much less established a causal connection with its refugee population. So no showing some growth graph won't do the job either, unless you can isolate the influence of immigrants from other factors.

 

Unless you have a complete breakdown in assimilation (jury is still out on this in Sweden/Germany), yes eventually the immigrants will be absorbed into the background society, that isn't a radical statement, just useless.

 

Unless of course you can show me the opportunity cost. How long did we have to wait until the productivity/tax paying levels of the newcomers equalized with the background population? How much money per year and head did we spend on them while waiting? How else could we have invested that money? If we assume we left it in some bank account with a modest 1 % interest, how long will the great-great-grand-kids of our refugees have to keep at it to catch up? Will they ever catch up? What if we are a bit more adventurous and invest in infrastructure and economic stimuli? What if we invest in childcare facilities? How does that pay off?

 

No taking the refugees will not kill the state. Not even Uncle Addie managed to do that after all. It will however hasten the demontage of the well-fare system. Immigrants can be a net plus, if you imitate the Americans/Candians leave your humanitarian concerns at the door and just take the choice parts.

[sToNED_CAT]

The wiser countries will take the most and will reap the greatest benefit. Immigration equals growth and future prosperity for the aging demograph countries. Think Las Vegas vs. Detroit for a model of what 2 areas experience with inflow vs outflow.

 

 

 

Immigrants who came to live in Britain from outside Europe cost the public purse nearly £120 billion over 17 years, a new report has shown.

The major academic study also found, however, that recent immigration from Europe – driven by the surge in arrivals from eastern European – gave the economy a £4.4 billion boost over the same period.

--------------------------

The report analysed figures from 1995 to 2011, during most of which the Labour government was pursuing vigorously pro-immigration policies.

It found that migrants from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) made a negative contribution to the public purse of £117.9 billion because they consumed more in public expenditure – including NHS costs, welfare hand-outs and education – than they contributed in taxes.

 

Reaping benefits, indeed. :thumbsup:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

[Tywin Manderly]

Most of the poorer nations aren't good examples for the benefits of immigrations because they usually dont have an ageing demographic. Its the populations with negative birthrate (Japan) or low replacement rate,
that are particularly well positioned to benefit from immigration. Common sense that you dont want too low of a workforce participation to support balooning retirement population. In these societies (including W.Euro) imigration is a blessing the countries should be thankful over.

 

Japan doesn't want (mass) immigration so they are investing in robots as way to deal with the issues caused by their aging, shrinking population.

[SuperSaiyanSwagger]

Just thought I'd point out that despite the lies of the media, Saudi Arabia is at the forefront of accepting refugees. It's accepted 2.5 million since the war started, 500,000 of which are still there, many of which are receiving free healthcare and education. Plus it's raised over $700 million dollars in aid.

http://www.arabnews.com/columns/news/804116

[Enguerrand]

It's pretty funny seeing Tino unleashing facts on the psychotics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-hPR6xJ79g#t=19m31s

 

He says Germany currently has assigned 6 billions euros to settle the refugees coming to the country which is more money then UNHCR spends on all refugees globally.

[Tijgy]

At this moment, there will be a pers conference by the German Minister of Internal Affairs (or something like that) about the possibility that German will re-introduce border controls between Germany and Austria(?) because the situation in Bayern (Yes, they are the victims of Merkel's Mutti Story because it is Bayern that is confronted the most but the number of refugees). 

 

But

Juncker said a few minutes ago this: " "I just spoke w/ Chancellor Merkel. We agree: to keep borders open between EU-MS, we need more Europe & solidarity in managing#refugeecrisisI just spoke w/ Chancellor Merkel." (Edit: in a tweet of course)

 

Edit: And it has been confirmed by the German Minister that there will be indeed border controls.

[HobbsTuna]

Also:

 

Yeah, they'll just casually violate the Schengen agreement, causing far more problems and long-term ramifications than dealing with even a lare amount of immigrants. That sounds likely.

 

Well that didn't take long.

[Enguerrand]

So Germany's compassion and high horses only lasted a week, Withdrawing of Schengen, sending troops to the border. meanwhile the Hungarians are evil nazi's for having to deal with this for years.

 

But no worries, there are always Sweden, The last bastion of humanity. That country would never give in to the racists and turn away refugees in need. I guess all the economic growth and opportunity is theirs now.

[Lyanna Stark]

https://youtu.be/KVWAIKoatWM?t=1

 

Here's an interesting document about the immigration in Germany.

Sweden has the same problems. European immigration does not work.

 

In one case, even after living 20 years in Germany, the children are still taught that women are objects of men, and that it's okay for the man to discipline the women - which contradicts with the constitution of Germany.

It would be great to see some of the bigger feminists circles to take issue with this and raise awareness, but as per usual - when it comes to immigration and race, the feminists are nowhere to be seen..

 

e: link fixed

 

 

Right. Feminists should do what? fix all society's structural problems? Sort out unemployment? End segregation and housing shortage? Please, tell me what feminists aren't doing. This whole thing is really tiring.  It's always wah wah feminists aren't doing anything, yet somehow, the outrage of the feminist party being, well, feminist, is generally profound. Not to mention the same people who are generally disparaging of feminists are somehow expecting the feminists to fix what no other party can, because somehow this is reasonable?

[Enguerrand]

 

 

Right. Feminists should do what? fix all society's structural problems? Sort out unemployment? End segregation and housing shortage? Please, tell me what feminists aren't doing. This whole thing is really tiring.  It's always wah wah feminists aren't doing anything, yet somehow, the outrage of the feminist party being, well, feminist, is generally profound. Not to mention the same people who are generally disparaging of feminists are somehow expecting the feminists to fix what no other party can, because somehow this is reasonable?

 

Attacking the immigrant's mediaeval values with the same fervor as you attack teenage gamer boys horrible misogynistic way to express themselves maybe.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

 

Well that didn't take long.

Seems like even geniuses can be wrong sometimes. 

 

The situation suddenly took a very interesting turn.

[ettoega]

So Germany's compassion and high horses only lasted a week,

A terrible publicity stunt by Merkel, the most hated politician in Southern Europe. Now her ministers are trying to bring the mad queen to senses after public opinion in Germany changed significantly.

[polishgenius]

 

Well that didn't take long.

 

 

 

Weeeelll, that went well.

That said, I think Enguerrand's jumping the gun a bit with his categorisation. If the border remains permanently closed we can start accusing them of rolling back on their commitment and leaving everyone else to deal with it, rather than slowing the flow so that not everyone is simply rolling into Munich at thousands a day. I can't see it being the former, but you know.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

It must be hard for Arakan to find himself living in a nazi state overnight like this.  

 

Do you have a stalhelm and enough gray clothes lying around, or will you need borrow these things? When can we expect the tanks to start crossing the Oder?