Refugee Crisis 2 - a warm welcome in Germany

[polishgenius]

I don't know much about Hungary myself, or agree with many of the things they have done, and I'm sure they could handle some this stuff better.

That said I have read most of the articles in the news - probably the same ones as you. And if your extreme view is based only on those articles, I highly suggest you to take a more critical approach to media - because it's their job to sell news and most of the time stories are highly over-dramatized, just to sell more paper - and actually do some thinking on your own.

The thing is you apparently don't know very much about the situation, and you don't know much about the users of this board either, so prancing into this topic and going DON'T BLINDLY FOLLOW THE MEDIA, SHEEPLE! is just ridiculous.

[Biglose]

The Hungarian people take offense, yes. And it is nobody's place to judge wether Hungarian people 'have the right' or not to take offense over the media bashing them, their country and their policemen who are ordinary people, friends, family. Hungary doesn't ask anybody to agree with them, support them or not criticize them (especially when there's a lot of room for criticism), it only asks to be given the same respect and objectivity granted to Slovakia and the Czech Republic or the UK. Which is as it turns out too much to ask, apparently.

Totally agree with that. UK and US media bashing hungery about that issue is kind of strange.

[Tijgy]

A Dutch (actually Flemish) article about "when journalists become white knights". 

[Ojji]

 

So, in other words - you don't know anything about the topic at hand, but are certain that media are doing something wrong?

And not only that! You are not letting your lack of knowledge on the matter stop you from actively debating people who are critiquing Hungarian authorities methods of handling the refugee situation?

 

Again very rich from you. You completely ignore the context that was written in.

The topic at hand is not the Hungarian immigration policy - or I don't why the Hungarian people voted for him. You keep doing this, you seem to be all about ad hominem.

 

Your critique of Hungarian authorities seem to consist of repeating how badly they treat the refugees, how poorly they are fed and how terrible everything is in there.

All of this based on the facts that you read in the news, that were clearly written very biasedly.

[Ojji]

The thing is you apparently don't know very much about the situation, and you don't know much about the users of this board either, so prancing into this topic and going DON'T BLINDLY FOLLOW THE MEDIA, SHEEPLE! is just ridiculous.

 

No I don't know very much about the situation in Hungary, but please enlighten me if you have some first hand knowledge.

 

I don't know what's so ridiculous about trying to apply some common sense in to this situation.

Because you know, there are three view points to this story. There are the refugees, the Hungarian people and the press.

And the press will be biased to the refugees and point of view, AND because they are trying to sell more newspaper (it's their job) they are going to add some color to the story.

The press has the power to choose which pov the show/tell to the public, and obviously the editor will choose the one that will sell the most.

 

So when a newspaper writes about how "The refugees in Hungary are treated like animals", it's a good title and it will sell more.

But please don't forget about the view point of the Hungarian citizens.

[mormont]

I don't know what's so ridiculous about trying to apply some common sense in to this situation.

 
It's impossible to do if you don't know anything about the situation.
 
Without context, it's impossible to tell what is common sense and what is just a preconceived bias that we favour but might well be wrong.
 

[baxus]

The Hungarian people take offense, yes. And it is nobody's place to judge wether Hungarian people 'have the right' or not to take offense over the media bashing them, their country and their policemen who are ordinary people, friends, family. Hungary doesn't ask anybody to agree with them, support them or not criticize them (especially when there's a lot of room for criticism), it only asks to be given the same respect and objectivity granted to Slovakia and the Czech Republic or the UK. Which is as it turns out too much to ask, apparently.

 

Being a member of the nation that has had its share of bad publicity, I can only say that it does suck but that it's well deserved more often than not.

To be perfectly honest, I don't give a flying fuck about whether or not people who do nothing about their government treating people like cattle take offense or not.

People's feelings take a back seat when it comes to other people's human rights.

 

But you are aware of the threats that ISIS has made?

 

 

I find it sad that EU are ignoring these threats because, why? I think they're afraid that media will stamp them a racist - so instead they choose to ignore the threats and ignore their citizens safety.

 

Terrorists making threats? Who would've figured?

Are you saying that treating thousands of people like cattle because of a possibility that few of them are terrorists is in any way justified?

 

And again, I think it's incredibly rude and arrogant towards the victims of the nazi to compare the refugees with them.

 

And again, as someone whose family members have been refugees and victims of the nazi, I say that it's not.

 

And again, I ask you if "better than what concentration camps prisoners" is the standard of care you wish to base this discussion on.

 

Wait what? You see the huge contradiction with these two lines of text?

 

No, I actually don't and would appreciate if you would once state the arguments to support your claims in this discussion other than asking silly questions and then ignoring follow-up questions.

 

I'm extremely curious now, how is "treating refugees humanely and not tear gassing them, forcing them into camps and taking them off trains" not a middle ground between supporting refugees and being labeled a nazi?

 

Can you please address the big problem then?

- Hungary as one of the EU and Schengen border countries has to register everyone coming in, and no other EU country is providing them with any personel to help with this. (Merkel invites EVERYONE in the EU and leaves Hungary and other countries to deal with the floodgates.) They can't just stop enforcing this law and let everyone in -- or do you think they should do this?

 

First of all, if you sign an international treaty, then you are supposed to do as you've agreed to.

Second, if Hungary feels that other EU countries have left them high and dry, then they should take it up with other EU countries and ask for/demand help, not treat refugees the way they have been so far.

That doesn't seem too much to ask, does it?

 

also another good example is the food line video.

The police in Hungary most likely has very little ways to communicate with the refugees, they don't speak the same language afaik.

So when they fail to establish a line when they're giving out the food, the police might use some more impractical techniques to distribute the food evenly to the people at the back lines.

Police throwing food to the refugees == the police are racist nazis, treating the refugees like animals.

 

If you are trying to tell me that there aren't any English/German speaking refugees in the lot, or that there aren't any Arabic/Farsi speakers working for Hungarian government that could help with the communication, then let's end this whole thing right here and now.

Also, there are other ways of ensuring proper food distribution.

The whole "food line video" as you call it is a disgrace that could've been avoided with a bit of extra effort.

 

 

I don't know much about Hungary myself, or agree with many of the things they have done, and I'm sure they could handle some this stuff better.

That said I have read most of the articles in the news - probably the same ones as you. And if your extreme view is based only on those articles, I highly suggest you to take a more critical approach to media - because it's their job to sell news and most of the time stories are highly over-dramatized, just to sell more paper - and actually do some thinking on your own.

 

I highly suggest that you try to empathize with refugees for a minute instead of caring about your precious Shengen borders and this perceived concept of refugees coming to eat your food and steal your stuff.

 

Let's put this out in the open - I have no idea what country you live in, but I'm fairly certain that you have never had any experience with refugees.

On the other hand, I have and quite a lot at that.

I have seen what it's like for people to leave everything behind and flee for their lives.

Trust me, the stories you are reading are almost guaranteed to have NOT been "over-dramatized" as you put it.

 

So I am not sure why you are actually mentioning they are crossing the border by land. Why does it matter they use trains, are by foot, ...?

 

Has the difference of trying to aprehend someone trying to get away from you on foot and someone driving away in a car ever ocurred to you?

 

 

It should however been ensured that they are treated with human dignity.

 

And have they been treated with dignity, in your opinion?

 

You can maybe still say the Hungarian politics are despicable but to be honest. You can say the same thing about the American government. There are a lot of instances that the governments do not treat some people with enough human dignity.

 

So what?

American government has Guantanamo bay, for example. Do you think every country should have one?

 

Does the fact that someone else is doing something wrong make you less guilty for doing the same thing?

 

If a man is brought into court for beating his wife, do you think that he'll get away with it by stating that someone else is doing the same thing?

 

Edit: About the media, almost everyone knows they are in fact manipulating the public. Look at all those poor children who are fleeing the war. Look at the women and don't show there are factually more men than women in there because people who have more sympathy if there are children.  

 

There are a lot of things that "almost everyone knows" and guess what? That's irrelevant.

At one point in time, everyone "knew" the Earth was flat, or that the Sun orbited the Earth, or that black people are supposed to be slaves.

Popular opinions and misgivings are NOT relevant in this discussion.

 

EDIT:

This must be my longest post EVER.

[Ojji]

 
It's impossible to do if you don't know anything about the situation.
 
Without context, it's impossible to tell what is common sense and what is just a preconceived bias that we favour but might well be wrong.
 

 

What I know about the situation in Hungary is what I read from the news. So I know about as much as, rough estimate, 90% of the users in this forum.

[polishgenius]

I don't know what's so ridiculous about trying to apply some common sense in to this situation.

 

 

What's ridiculous is your accusatory and combative tone and the smugness of the 'I'm the only one clever enough to think for myself' despite by your own admission not knowing anything about the situation.


You can bleat all you want about 'the press', and you're not even wrong that Europe was unprepared for this and that much needs to be done to help Hungary deal with this- if you weren't so keen to proclaim your own brilliance you might have noticed the discussion of the failure of Dublin II and all that in earlier pages of this topic - but the fact remains that the media doesn't have to do any twisting for the comments of the Hungarian government and the actions of some of their police (and journalists) to look terrible.

[baxus]

No I don't know very much about the situation in Hungary, but please enlighten me if you have some first hand knowledge.

I have been trying to enlighten you with some first hand knowledge.

 

Refugees are passing through my hometown, 20 years ago a lot of my family and friends were forced to flee their homes, my fiancee has been forced out of her home 15 years ago.

 

How much more first hand experience do you need?

[RhaenysBee]

There has been demonstrations against the government's refugee policy in fact, in case you haven't known. If you expect the Hungarian people to storm the parliament and demand the head of their PM because the west thinks that's what they should do, you will be disappointed. As long as Hungarian people's feelings and human rights don't matter as much as the refugee's feelings and human rights, do not expect the Hungarian government's or people's opinion to change on the refugee crises. Hungary may not have treated the refugees the best way, but try and not base your opinion about an entire nation, a government and millions of people on a two minute video footage. And again, please take into consideration that the refugees are involved in all exchanges as well and they too have a responsibility in how their cooperation with the Hungarian authorities works or doesn't work. Hungary is not the villain. And I refuse to accept the role of the designated bad guy for myself, my country or my government too, especially from people who don't know us, who hasn't been at the railway station and seen it live and who don't have friends and acquaintances at the Serbian border on duty 7/24 to try and keep the masses under control. Hungarian people in the government and in the ranks of the police are ordinary people as well.

[Biglose]

 
It's impossible to do if you don't know anything about the situation.
 
Without context, it's impossible to tell what is common sense and what is just a preconceived bias that we favour but might well be wrong.
 

Oh, thats not really true. Bias manifests quite obviously if you are willing to look for it. It is often(nealry always) given away in logical contradiction within larger texts.

Often a "a right for me but not for thee" and other issues like that making destinction without a differance or just totally changing the argumentation the second it gets closer to home.

So no, actually you do not often need context to spot it. You may need a general idea of mathematics(high school) and a bit knowledge about natural science and basic economy is more than enough to spot nonsense and bias. Maybe not in all cases (espacially if you are talking about only a few sentances) but lets say in way about half.

 

The point is, you actually need not know anything about the situation to know that the piling on Hungary is a load of crap. I mean honestyl, they are just the once at the front line. The British response was dogs. The american response was lucky for us we have an ocean.

As a matter of fact only about 9 countries in the EU do anything close to what one could call working towards a solution. And some of them do it with an arrogance and in a way shortsighted that you have to assume they would rather fail. Hungary could do the same as italy and just let them pass through. Until the second Austria closes its borders. And then Slovakia.

[Ojji]

Terrorists making threats? Who would've figured?

Are you saying that treating thousands of people like cattle because of a possibility that few of them are terrorists is in any way justified?

 

No I am not saying anyone should be treated like cattle, I am saying every single refugee coming in the EU should be registered and checked even if that requires them to wait in a queue before entering the country.
And I think Hungarian government are justified in a use force to keep them from entering the country illegally.

 

And again, as someone whose family members have been refugees and victims of the nazi, I say that it's not.

 

And again, I ask you if "better than what concentration camps prisoners" is the standard of care you wish to base this discussion on.

 

I think that is completely unfair comparison in the first place and I guess that is just something we have to disagree on then?

 

No, I actually don't and would appreciate if you would once state the arguments to support your claims in this discussion other than asking silly questions and then ignoring follow-up questions.

 

I'm extremely curious now, how is "treating refugees humanely and not tear gassing them, forcing them into camps and taking them off trains" not a middle ground between supporting refugees and being labeled a nazi?

 

 

I'm not sure if I understand your point "treating refugees humanely and not tear gassing them, forcing them into camps and taking them off trains" isn't that you comparing them to nazis? 

And the other alternative would be that they are supporting the refugees. Which is the point I was trying to make..

 

If you have anything negative to say about the immigration policies in Europe, people are so eager to call you a racist.

 

First of all, if you sign an international treaty, then you are supposed to do as you've agreed to.

Second, if Hungary feels that other EU countries have left them high and dry, then they should take it up with other EU countries and ask for/demand help, not treat refugees the way they have been so far.

That doesn't seem too much to ask, does it?

 

 

If you are trying to tell me that there aren't any English/German speaking refugees in the lot, or that there aren't any Arabic/Farsi speakers working for Hungarian government that could help with the communication, then let's end this whole thing right here and now.

Also, there are other ways of ensuring proper food distribution.

The whole "food line video" as you call it is a disgrace that could've been avoided with a bit of extra effort.

 

 

Sure, and they also have to enforce the law about registering the refugees that are coming in to the EU, right?

Also yes I think they should ask for help, get more personel, more translators etc.

 

That is not what I'm saying, but if you're saying there are no communication problems there, then I agree, we should end it right here.

Calling the video a disgrace is again fundamentally wrong in my opinion, I would think it's more misunderstood and blown out of proportion. But hey I'm not allowed to be open minded  when it comes to the evil white man.

[Ojji]

I have been trying to enlighten you with some first hand knowledge.

 

Refugees are passing through my hometown, 20 years ago a lot of my family and friends were forced to flee their homes, my fiancee has been forced out of her home 15 years ago.

 

How much more first hand experience do you need?

 

I am sorry about that, but I am talking about first hand knowledge about the situation in Hungary, right now, that is what we have been talking about, right?

[The Iceman of the North]

I believe it's time to point out certain parts of the Schengen border code since it appears that there are people here unaware of the scope of the agreement:
 

 

Article 3

Scope

This Regulation shall apply to any person crossing the internal or external borders of Member States, without prejudice to:

(a)

the rights of persons enjoying the Community right of free movement;

(b )

the rights of refugees and persons requesting international protection, in particular as regards non-refoulement.

 

 

 

Article 5

Entry conditions for third-country nationals

4.   By way of derogation from paragraph 1:

(a)

third-country nationals who do not fulfil all the conditions laid down in paragraph 1 but hold a residence permit or a re-entry visa issued by one of the Member States or, where required, both documents, shall be authorised to enter the territories of the other Member States for transit purposes so that they may reach the territory of the Member State which issued the residence permit or re-entry visa, unless their names are on the national list of alerts of the Member State whose external borders they are seeking to cross and the alert is accompanied by instructions to refuse entry or transit;

(b )

third-country nationals who fulfil the conditions laid down in paragraph 1, except for that laid down in point (b ), and who present themselves at the border may be authorised to enter the territories of the Member States, if a visa is issued at the border in accordance with Council Regulation (EC) No 415/2003 of 27 February 2003 on the issue of visas at the border, including the issue of such visas to seamen in transit (18).

Visas issued at the border shall be recorded on a list.

If it is not possible to affix a visa in the document, it shall, exceptionally, be affixed on a separate sheet inserted in the document. In such a case, the uniform format for forms for affixing the visa, laid down by Council Regulation (EC) No 333/2002 of 18 February 2002 on a uniform format for forms for affixing the visa issued by Member States to persons holding travel documents not recognised by the Member State drawing up the form (19), shall be used;

(c )

third-country nationals who do not fulfil one or more of the conditions laid down in paragraph 1 may be authorised by a Member State to enter its territory on humanitarian grounds, on grounds of national interest or because of international obligations. Where the third-country national concerned is the subject of an alert as referred to in paragraph 1(d), the Member State authorising him or her to enter its territory shall inform the other Member States accordingly.

 

 

 

You have two set of agreements at work here, the Schengen border code, which regulate who can enter the Schengen area, and the Dublin accords which regulate where asylum seekers should have their asylum application handled.

[baxus]

<snip>

 

I would like yout to point out a single bit of empathy you've shown towards refugees in your posts before we continue any further with this discussion.

I mean, just to show how you're not open minded just when it comes to "the evil white man".

 

 

There has been demonstrations against the government's refugee policy in fact, in case you haven't known. If you expect the Hungarian people to storm the parliament and demand the head of their PM because the west thinks that's what they should do, you will be disappointed. As long as Hungarian people's feelings and human rights don't matter as much as the refugee's feelings and human rights, do not expect the Hungarian government's or people's opinion to change on the refugee crises. Hungary may not have treated the refugees the best way, but try and not base your opinion about an entire nation, a government and millions of people on a two minute video footage. And again, please take into consideration that the refugees are involved in all exchanges as well and they too have a responsibility in how their cooperation with the Hungarian authorities works or doesn't work. Hungary is not the villain. And I refuse to accept the role of the designated bad guy for myself, my country or my government too, especially from people who don't know us, who hasn't been at the railway station and seen it live and who don't have friends and acquaintances at the Serbian border on duty 7/24 to try and keep the masses under control. Hungarian people in the government and in the ranks of the police are ordinary people as well.

 

As I have already said multiple times, I am not stating an opinion on an entire Hungarian nation, I am critiquing actions of Hungarian government. Those two are not the same.

 

Refugees are involved in all exchanges but situation they're not on an equal footing with Hungarian authorities.

Refugees are hungry, tired, cold, worried about their families who are on the road with them and those left behind.

They are uncertain where their next meal or change of clothes is coming from, where they'll get the chance to wash up, or lay down to rest.

Most of all, when they see barbed wire fences and police in riot gear, they are simply scared.

They've traveled a long way to escape such treatment just to get it once again.

 

P.S. Let's not try to make the border zone between Serbia and Hungary sound like some high-risk zone when it really is not.

[baxus]

I am sorry about that, but I am talking about first hand knowledge about the situation in Hungary, right now, that is what we have been talking about, right?

 

I am aware that this might be a hard concept for you to wrap your head around, but refugees are refugees.

They all go through pretty much the same stuff, and experience the same emotional rollercoaster ride.

[polishgenius]

 

I'm not allowed to be open minded  when it comes to the evil white man.

Wait, what?

[baxus]

Wait, what?

I didn't believe my eyes when I first read it either.

[Ojji]

Wait, what?

 

I'd like to give the people of Hungary the benefit of a doubt instead of calling them racist - which is what many people on the social media is already stating,