Jaime the Kingmaker

[Makk]

I had previously wondered if Lady Stoneheart would end up tasking Jaime and Brienne with retrieving Jons body for revival.

 

It was a very interesting post, OP. But it is difficult to see Jaime doing something to actually remove Tommen from the throne or risk his life. I guess other events can change things around. If he remains a captive of LS for a while, and Tommen is killed, or if he feels Tommens life is in danger holding the throne.

 

The whole situation with Brienne, Jaime, and Lady Stoneheart is difficult to read. Brienne is obviously luring Jaime into a trap at the end of Dance, but I don't believe she would do anything that would definitely harm Jaime. There is a lot we haven't been shown about the situation so it was interesting to see this speculated on a bit.

[Golden Hand the Just]

Excellent topic, was a great read. This is the one way I could get on board with Jon becoming king. I think that Jaime would obviously first have declared Tommen as his bastard (if he wasn't already dead) before crowning Jon, so that Tommen wouldn't be in direct competition with Jon. I really hope he doesn't mess it up and back Faegon.

[Robb_Warged]

No problem.

I will elaborate on it.

Arya blames herself for... well everything (father brother and mother dying) and she has always loved Jon more then everyone.She wanted to go North to see him yet couldn't find passage and instead went to Braavos.
If/when she hears of Jon dying I doubt that she will want to believe that she is truly alone.The FM will probably ask her why a girl cares as it was Arya of House Starks brother who died and she is supposed to be no one.
Arya won't be able to deny that Jon is her brother as she has always thought of him as such and to give up the last member of her pack would be the final loss of her identity.

I imagine her retrieving Needle and going back to Westeros and encountering Brienne (Dunk and Egg 2.0).Then either a Vale trip to encounter Sansa a Riverlands trip to encounter Stoneheart or a North trip for Jon.

IIRC GRRM stated that like the fellowship that lost members and became scattered the Starks will eventually meet up.

I'm still waiting for a moment someone hands Jon Needle and Jon thinks Arya is dead Ala Mithril shirt.

Okay, I see what you mean on why Arya would head North then upon hearing Jon has died.  Their reunion (if we get it, I'm hoping we get it) is one of the reunions I'm looking forward to most

[A Bastard Snow]

Okay, I see what you mean on why Arya would head North then upon hearing Jon has died.  Their reunion (if we get it, I'm hoping we get it) is one of the reunions I'm looking forward to most

Oh hell yes.
I really hope he hugs her musses up her hair and calls her little sister.

[Krugal]

 

Because Aegon will declare himself King with or without Jaime's help....

 

Here's how Jaime could become Kingmaker for Jon:

 

1) Stannis has to die

2) Jon needs to become a leading figure in the north and rally northerners behind Aegon.

3) Aegon needs to recognize Jon officially as his half-brother

4) Aegon needs to become popular and gain the support of the Riverlands and Vale.

5) Dany needs to land and take Kingslanding before Aegon has time to march on the capital

6) Dany must execute or be responsible directly or indirectly (collateral damage) for Cersei's and Tommen's death

7) Aegon must die at Dany's hand, provoking the general outcry of the mass

 

Jaime, if he survived all that, is then in a position where he can play "Kingmaker" and declare for the last surviving son of Rhaegar....

 

But all that aside, imo, the more likely Kingmaker candidate is not Jaime but Loras Tyrell. iirc, in that chapter where Jaime reflects on the Kingmaker, it's Loras Tyrell that stands before him...plus the rose symbolism in Jon's story line and the fact that the Tyrells and Lannisters are already at odds...

 

Also, the Tyrells might look for another husband for Margaery. JonCon will certainly not allow such a match and Aegon would do well to refuse, the girl is cursed, thrice married, twice widowed.... the Tyrells cannot have the King, but they could, maybe, have the half-brother of uncertain birth...and to a former bastard and starving northerners, the weakened, humbled House Tyrell might be a blessing.

Well, Loras will stand for Tommen as long as he lives and is married to Margaery. So he will obviously not join Jaime in declaring for Jon. That could lead to interesting dynamics between Jaime and Loras, who's already been pretty arrogant around Jaime. When Tommen dies, though, then I guess it's up to Olenna to decide where the Tyrells should stand.

[Krugal]

I do hope to see Jaime take up an active role in backing a new King.
 
I would prefer to see Jaime take up this role for Jon, rather than another fake claimant. Jaime has already suffered enough dishonour by making/supporting fake Kings. It would be nice to see him get it right for once. I also liked that short scene between Jaime and Jon on the show and hope to see some interaction between them. If anyone will understand Jaime's difficulty with vows, it is Jon.
 
 However, I think it is more likely that he will support (f)Aegon, given his history with Elia and her children and it will create drama if him and Tyrion are on opposing sides.

I like that thought, the drama created by the Lannister boys being on opposing sides. However, I think Danaerys is bound to end up at the wall eventually (probably after defeating fAegon, while Jon and Jaime hold back the Others at the wall). Then there is plenty of opportunity for drama, when she meets Jon who is another rival to the throne, but have to cooperate with him against the others. And Jaime and Tyrion are on opposing sides.

[Lord Wraith]

Jaime declaring for fAegon over Myrcella and Dany is a better theory and a good parallel between the First and Second Dances. Still, I do not buy that theory. I think Jaime is bound to be the Hand of the King/Queen to Tommen/Myrcella and sit on the IT before he strangles Cersei. For the record, I think Jaime is the valonqar and it works best if he stays close to Cersei till the bitter end.

 

 

I agree. Jaime is haunted by dreams about failing Rhaegar. If he ends believe Aegon is real I can see it.

 

 

Jon being revealed as R and L's is something I'm sure will happen much later after Jaime's plot is practically solved.

 

Probably and it will likely be far away from Jaime when it happens.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

It's a nice theory. Given that Jaime has to face Lady Stoneheart (and survive), this could influence his decision of declaring Jon over Aegon, but don't forget that he doesn't know yet about Jon's eventual claim or Aegon's existence and landing in Westeros. And learning about one before the other could make him make a decision he can't unmake later.

 

I for one don't think he'll declare for Jon. Jon's too far away, all the way north to the Wall, and he could receive word of Jon's assassination (attempt) midway. Also, in Jamie's eyes, Aegon would be the rightful heir of Rhaegar because Jon's a bastard. Third, Jamie feels guilty that Rhaegar's family was murder under his watch, so declaring for the boy that he thought dead would be redeeming to him.

 

I have been thinking of ways in which Jaime could secure Tommen's life after his removal from the Iron Throne. I only could come up with Tommen inheriting Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. Jaime is removed from succession because he's a member of the Kingsguard, Tyrion IS the rightful heir of Tywin but he's accursed in the eyes of gods and men for being a kinslayer so no lord would want to serve him, and Cersei would probably be dead by the time Tommen's dethroned.

 

I also think that Jon won't go south anytime soon, since he is the one that will lead the army of men against the Other's attack.

 

A small erratum:

Jaime is crowned at Harrenhall

 The quote is from OP. It should say "Jaime is knighted at Harrenhall." Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

[Krugal]

It's a nice theory. Given that Jaime has to face Lady Stoneheart (and survive), this could influence his decision of declaring Jon over Aegon, but don't forget that he doesn't know yet about Jon's eventual claim or Aegon's existence and landing in Westeros. And learning about one before the other could make him make a decision he can't unmake later.

 

I for one don't think he'll declare for Jon. Jon's too far away, all the way north to the Wall, and he could receive word of Jon's assassination (attempt) midway. Also, in Jamie's eyes, Aegon would be the rightful heir of Rhaegar because Jon's a bastard. Third, Jamie feels guilty that Rhaegar's family was murder under his watch, so declaring for the boy that he thought dead would be redeeming to him.

 

I have been thinking of ways in which Jaime could secure Tommen's life after his removal from the Iron Throne. I only could come up with Tommen inheriting Casterly Rock and the Westerlands. Jaime is removed from succession because he's a member of the Kingsguard, Tyrion IS the rightful heir of Tywin but he's accursed in the eyes of gods and men for being a kinslayer so no lord would want to serve him, and Cersei would probably be dead by the time Tommen's dethroned.

 

I also think that Jon won't go south anytime soon, since he is the one that will lead the army of men against the Other's attack.

 

A small erratum:

 The quote is from OP. It should say "Jaime is knighted at Harrenhall." Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Thanks! You're right, learning about Aegon before Jon could force him to a decision it's hard to back away from, and it would be redeeming for Jaime to declare for Aegon, but I think it will be Jon, mostly for plot reasons I guess. But also, if it happens the way I predict it, people like LSH and HR couldn't care less about Aegon, and Jaime has to get away from his encounter with the BWB in some way. I don't see Aegon's involvement in ths. And I imagine Jaime will learn about R and L marrying, and maybe even about Rhaegar's thought on the prophecy concerning Jon, from Howland and/or Lem.

And thanks for pointing out the error (I accidently made Jaime king, not just kingmaker), can't believe I missed that for so long (it's been a while since I posted this). I've edited it now, but I put "given the white cloak", since Jaime was knighted by Dayne on the battlefield. 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

Thanks! You're right, learning about Aegon before Jon could force him to a decision it's hard to back away from, and it would be redeeming for Jaime to declare for Aegon, but I think it will be Jon, mostly for plot reasons I guess. And I imagine Jaime will learn about R and L marrying, and maybe even about Rhaegar's thought on the prophecy concerning Jon, from Howland and/or Lem.

And thanks for pointing out the error (I accidently made Jaime king, not just kingmaker), can't believe I missed that for so long (it's been a while since I posted this). I've edited it now, but I put "given the white cloak", since Jaime was knighted by Dayne on the battlefield. 

Haha. I can't believe my correction was wrong.  Oh well...

[Belgarad]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the obvious fact that Jaime is already a kingmaker twice at this point.  Their names are Joffrey and Tommen.

[Ice Turtle]

IMO by the time Jaime deals with Stoneheart issue and Cersei both Myrcella and Tommen will be dead. Aegon will be either dead or still winning and in no need of the Kigslayer or kingmaker. Jaime may head north because he decides to take the black or to fulfill his oath to Cat/maybe future oath or promise to Brienne to bring either of the Stark girls North. Only on his way through the Neck he might run into the certain crannogman.

Other possibility is that Northmen will need to retreat south because of the Others and Jon will take Harenhall for his seat. 

[Greymoon]

Well, Loras will stand for Tommen as long as he lives and is married to Margaery. So he will obviously not join Jaime in declaring for Jon. That could lead to interesting dynamics between Jaime and Loras, who's already been pretty arrogant around Jaime. When Tommen dies, though, then I guess it's up to Olenna to decide where the Tyrells should stand.

I wasn't suggesting both of them...Only Loras, who seems the stronger candidate for Kingmaker.

When Tommen dies, or if the Tyrell and Lannister alliance ends (Margaery's trial probably provides a legitimate ground for divorce), then I doubt the Tyrells will have much choice in matters of allies. If Tommen dies, Margaery will be considered as "cursed"....and if the Tyrells back out of the alliance or Margaery's innocence is questioned, the entire house will be disgraced.

only a starving man would ask a beggar for food...only the most desperate would ally with House Tyrell after that....and the most desperate could well be what remains of House Stark. Others might use the Tyrells, take advantage of their poor standing, while a Stark might sympathize - and the north might be starved enough that allying with former Lannister loyalists becomes alright...

Sansa liked Margaery and Sansa would understand Margaery's plight, having gone through similar experiences (being offered up for marriage)...she is also learning to play the game... Loras's own sigil is three roses (=> three headed dragon)...roses,  winters roses, are associated to Lyanna Stark and by association, to Jon... leaving us with a possible, future Jon/Margaery match... 

So that's why I suggested Loras instead of Jaime for Kingmaker. That and the fact that Loras is the other protagonist of that little scene were Jaime reflects on Criston Cole... While Jaime thinks that he and Loras are the same and that Loras is merely a mirror image of Jaime's younger self, they are also, quite different. In fact, the only things they have in common is arrogance, good looks and talent.

Loras has experienced the loss of his first love early on, his relationship to his sister is healthy, his family, while ambitious is none the less, a loving family..he is a third son, not a first born son, never was heir to anything, never did disappoint his father... Young Jaime and Loras may appear like mirror images of each other, but they are not.

This difference is what will make Loras the Kingmaker instead of the Kingslayer.

[Alaynsa Starne]

This is a really good OP, though I have some reservations that Jaime will rush to Jon's side because of something he hears from Howland or Lem. If it were in Jaime to fly all over Westeros to meet up with Rhaegar's purported progeny, then he would first go to the Stormlands to declare for Aegon. Given that I think Jaime has a healthy amount of skepticism, I strongly doubt that he would believe either men if he ever did chance to meet them (which is a bit of stretch) and if they did, for some reason, decide to confide in him one of the most sensitive secrets in the Realm (which is so implausible it borders on impossible within the established backstories, loyalties, and characterizations). 

Rather, I think it is more likely that Jaime will somehow survive his encounter with the Brotherhood, and that he will attempt to find Sansa to honor his oath to Cat. Given the tenuous connections drawn between Sansa and Jon during Feast and Dance, I think it's more likely that Jaime will swear fealty to Sansa, which will lead him to travel north to Winterfell or the Wall to participate in the war against the Others without having any knowledge of who Jon is beyond the official story that he is Ned's bastard and Sansa's half-brother. I think during this war is the most likely time for Jaime to draw conclusions as to Jon's parentage and to declare him the de facto king. 

[Krugal]

I wasn't suggesting both of them...Only Loras, who seems the stronger candidate for Kingmaker.

When Tommen dies, or if the Tyrell and Lannister alliance ends (Margaery's trial probably provides a legitimate ground for divorce), then I doubt the Tyrells will have much choice in matters of allies. If Tommen dies, Margaery will be considered as "cursed"....and if the Tyrells back out of the alliance or Margaery's innocence is questioned, the entire house will be disgraced.

only a starving man would ask a beggar for food...only the most desperate would ally with House Tyrell after that....and the most desperate could well be what remains of House Stark. Others might use the Tyrells, take advantage of their poor standing, while a Stark might sympathize - and the north might be starved enough that allying with former Lannister loyalists becomes alright...

Sansa liked Margaery and Sansa would understand Margaery's plight, having gone through similar experiences (being offered up for marriage)...she is also learning to play the game... Loras's own sigil is three roses (=> three headed dragon)...roses,  winters roses, are associated to Lyanna Stark and by association, to Jon... leaving us with a possible, future Jon/Margaery match... 

So that's why I suggested Loras instead of Jaime for Kingmaker. That and the fact that Loras is the other protagonist of that little scene were Jaime reflects on Criston Cole... While Jaime thinks that he and Loras are the same and that Loras is merely a mirror image of Jaime's younger self, they are also, quite different. In fact, the only things they have in common is arrogance, good looks and talent.

Loras has experienced the loss of his first love early on, his relationship to his sister is healthy, his family, while ambitious is none the less, a loving family..he is a third son, not a first born son, never was heir to anything, never did disappoint his father... Young Jaime and Loras may appear like mirror images of each other, but they are not.

This difference is what will make Loras the Kingmaker instead of the Kingslayer.

That is an interesting comparison of Jaime and Loras, and they are of course very different when you look closer. And Loras honor hasn't really been questioned like Jaime's, the only smudge in other people's eyes is his homosexuality, and frankly that doesn't seem to be a big deal to people around him. And I can see why Starks and Tyrells could seek eachother for Alliance. However, I strongly believe that the reference to Criston Cole connects to Jaime. It's not about being Kingmaker or Kingslayer, the best or the worst. It's about the two opposites within the same person:

"The best and the worst." So one of us is like to live in song. "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him." AFFC Jaime II

This really connects better to Jaime than to Loras (although Loras is young and still might have a lot of development in front of him).

[Krugal]

This is a really good OP, though I have some reservations that Jaime will rush to Jon's side because of something he hears from Howland or Lem. If it were in Jaime to fly all over Westeros to meet up with Rhaegar's purported progeny, then he would first go to the Stormlands to declare for Aegon. Given that I think Jaime has a healthy amount of skepticism, I strongly doubt that he would believe either men if he ever did chance to meet them (which is a bit of stretch) and if they did, for some reason, decide to confide in him one of the most sensitive secrets in the Realm (which is so implausible it borders on impossible within the established backstories, loyalties, and characterizations).

Rather, I think it is more likely that Jaime will somehow survive his encounter with the Brotherhood, and that he will attempt to find Sansa to honor his oath to Cat. Given the tenuous connections drawn between Sansa and Jon during Feast and Dance, I think it's more likely that Jaime will swear fealty to Sansa, which will lead him to travel north to Winterfell or the Wall to participate in the war against the Others without having any knowledge of who Jon is beyond the official story that he is Ned's bastard and Sansa's half-brother. I think during this war is the most likely time for Jaime to draw conclusions as to Jon's parentage and to declare him the de facto king.

This is a possibility as well, the encounter with LSH could end up being about the oath to protect Sansa and that's how it connects to Jon. And of course there are other ways of getting out alive, there seems to be a lot happening with Frey hangings, Tom o'Sevens being left alone with Edmure, and the upcomig revenge for the red wedding, and LSH might have use for Jaime in these matters as well. The thing is I belive Jaimes kingmaking has to come before Tommen dies, forcing him to make an active decision in declaring against his son (or possibly daughter) and going against Cersei where it hurts her the most, going against their children. Of course we don't know how much time Tommen and Myrcella have left.

[Isobel Harper]

This is a possibility as well, the encounter with LSH could end up being about the oath to protect Sansa and that's how it connects to Jon. And of course there are other ways of getting out alive, there seems to be a lot happening with Frey hangings, Tom o'Sevens being left alone with Edmure, and the upcomig revenge for the red wedding, and LSH might have use for Jaime in these matters as well. The thing is I belive Jaimes kingmaking has to come before Tommen dies, forcing him to make an active decision in declaring against his son (or possibly daughter) and going against Cersei where it hurts her the most, going against their children. Of course we don't know how much time Tommen and Myrcella have left.

If theories are correct, Lem Lemoncloak (Richard Lonmouth) might think Jaime would make a very good present for a certain prince who just landed with the GC.

I think the King Making will be, in part, to keep Tommen and/or safe.  That is, agree to support Aegon and/or Jon and let them in safely in KL with the promise that his child(ren) would be spared.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I believe his role will be more like becoming a politician.When he learns Kevan's death, he will realise that Tommen has no other Lannister backup and he will become King Regent or Hand of the King.

[Daemrion]

I believe his role will be more like becoming a politician.When he learns Kevan's death, he will realise that Tommen has no other Lannister backup and he will become King Regent or Hand of the King.

Cersei won't let power go. I reckon that Ser Robert Strong will win Cersei's trial by combat for her and she'll come back into power to be taken down by the "younger more beautiful queen" who is most likely Daenerys.

I hope that Jaime and Brienne both survive LSH, because frankly, there's really no place in the story for her except to make other characters grow and evolve. I don't think Jaime will return to KL.

As for fAegon, I reckon he's going to die in TWOW. Perhaps even by the time that Jaime is able to head south again, word will filter through that fAegon died (either of greyscale or trying to storm the walls of Kings Landing)

[DreamSongs]

I think Jaime will see in Aegon a chance to take his last surviving child and leave, which is what he originally wanted. But all will depend on how his encounter with Stoneheart happens.

Jaime will be leading the defense for Tommen. It's hilarious to think he would back anyone but his nephew, who is a good boy.

I think that Tommen will be dead by the end of TWOW.  Jaime might have the idea of sending Tommen off to Casterly Rock, but Tommen will die before that can happen.  I suspect that he will either contract greyscale or be killed in a manner similar to what Pycelle describes to Jaime during his vigil over Tywin.