INCBlackbird Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Never said he did. I never said Theon was responsible for Balon not agreeing to Robb's terms. But when the negotiations failed, he should have either reported back to Robb, or broke up with Robb so he could pursue his father's schemes.Theon couldn't go back to Robb because his father didn't allow any ships from leaving and he did "break up" with Robb. So where's the betrayal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I never said Theon was responsible for Balon not agreeing to Robb's terms. But when the negotiations failed, he should have either reported back to Robb, or broke up with Robb so he could pursue his father's schemes. His father, his House and his people are his priority. His alliance with Robb comes after that.He agreed to ally with Robb in good faith but he does not get to decide to dictate Ironborn policy. A US politician or soldier can agree to ally with a foreign state but once the President decides that America is going to war against that country then it is out of the politicians/soldiers hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 ETA: It's like this. If you are in a relationship and you sleep with someone else, that's cheating. If you break up your relationship and then sleep with someone else, it's not cheating.If Theon had broken up with Robb, his taking of Winterfell would not have been a betrayal. An act of war, yes. But he wouldn't have been cheating on Robb... with... his dad... I think you see what I mean! And how do you suggest Theon should have "broken up" with Robb? I mean... they weren't in a relationship... Theon didn't cheat on him, he wanted his father and Robb to be allies but that didn't work out so he had to chose a side and he made the logical choice of siding with his family. Even if he'd wanted to tell Robb about that (which would have been foolish, letting him know that his father was going to attack him and giving Robb and advantage) he wouldn't have been able to,... his father didn't allow any ships to leave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 And how do you suggest Theon should have "broken up" with Robb? I mean... they weren't in a relationship... Theon didn't cheat on him, he wanted his father and Robb to be allies but that didn't work out so he had to chose a side and he made the logical choice of siding with his family. Even if he'd wanted to tell Robb about that (which would have been foolish, letting him know that his father was going to attack him and giving Robb and advantage) he wouldn't have been able to,... his father didn't allow any ships to leave... He didn't have to make a sneak attack on Winterfell, though. That he did entirely on his own. And that was surely as much a betrayal as if he stabbed him in the back. Oh wait, according to you, that wouldn't count either. <sigh> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 He didn't have to make a sneak attack on Winterfell, though. That he did entirely on his own. And that was surely as much a betrayal as if he stabbed him in the back. Oh wait, according to you, that wouldn't count either. <sigh>What is wrong with sneak attacks? Didn't Robb sneak attack two Lannister armies during the war? It is a legitimate war tactic, one which no side has a problem with. There are legitimate reasons to dislike Theon but this is not one of them, nor is putting his father above Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Theon couldn't go back to Robb because his father didn't allow any ships from leaving and he did "break up" with Robb. So where's the betrayal? Did Robb know that? A break-up is not really a break-up if you don't inform the other party of it..... And how do you suggest Theon should have "broken up" with Robb? I mean... they weren't in a relationship... Theon didn't cheat on him, he wanted his father and Robb to be allies but that didn't work out so he had to chose a side and he made the logical choice of siding with his family. Even if he'd wanted to tell Robb about that (which would have been foolish, letting him know that his father was going to attack him and giving Robb and advantage) he wouldn't have been able to,... his father didn't allow any ships to leave... Yeah, it was a metaphor. Why would telling Robb that Theon would not be returning to his army necessitate "letting him know that his father was going to attack him"? Who even implied that? Certainly not me. All he has to say is, "Uh, Robb, dude.... I'm going to hang with my dad and sis and get to know them again after all these years. Good luck storming the castle!" If he had, then he wouldn't have been stabbing Robb in the back from Winterfell.Do the Ironborn not use ravens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I agree with those that there was nothing wrong with Theon choosing his family over Robb. Family is a family, especially in feudal society. But I do have a problem with Theon capturing Winterfell, because he was not ordered to. There was absolutely no need for him to capture his best friend's home. Instead he decided to do so for glory, got innocents there killed or/and raped. Just shows how much Theon valued friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Jaime had to laugh. Too sweet! His ear! He could scarcely wait to tell Brienne, though the wench wouldn't find it half so funny as he did. "Is he dead yet?""Soon. They have taken off his hands and feet, but Clegane seems amused by the way the Qohorik slobbers."Jaime's smile curdled. I love that passage. Jaimes not what most would call a good man, and the kingslayers wrath must have burned heavily for Vargo, so to see him so disgusted at his enimies pain, proves he hads some good qualities.But you asked about Theon. I like the guy. (I too am always smiling, like only I know the joke) His story is tragic and inspiring. But imo he did betray the Starks. I never saw him kneel to Robb, but he won great merit that day, every other person in Hosters hall did kneel and he left in a mission from the man who made him a prince. Theon betrayed Robb, I see no way around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPathera Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 OP, what happened to him at the hands of Ramsey was horrible and no one deserves to go through something like that.But don't absolve Theon of his betrayal because that's what he did.Even as a justified hostage, Theon was treated extremely well considering his father's rebellion. He was allowed to have his own armor, his own sword, his own bow and arrow, he had free reign of Winterfell, the surrounding lands and even rode out through the North from time to time without constant guard.Hell, Ned Stark even gave Theon a position of honor as his sword bearer and had the lad trained and tutored alongside his children. You could even argue that Theon was better treated than Jon Snow by virtue of being a trueborn son. Robb trusted Theon as a brother and Theon pledged his support to Robb when he was declared King in the North. Theon claims that it was his idea to have the Iron Islands ally with the North and Robb trusts him to give this offer to Balon.As Balon is a bitter idiot, he spits in Robb's face and declares war on the North.What does Theon do? Does he stay neutral to keep from betraying his blood family and foster family? Does he send a raven to Robb/Winterfell warning that the deal's off and that Balon's about to invade the North? Does he try harder to convince Balon to attack the Westerlands for potentially greater profit? Does he leave for the North and resume being a hostage/aid the Northern defenses to get his father to back off?Nope! He turns his back on the people who raised him, trained him and trusted him just so that he can get daddy to love him which includes drowing at least one northman knight that was a friend.He sacks Winterfell and kills several people who all knew Theon and were shocked that Theon had become their enemy.He unleashes Reek/Ramsey and that does not need to be elaborated.He threatens to hang Rodrik's daughter during parlay.He kills two boys to save face and tells the world that he killed Rickon and Bran rather than that they escaped him. (more of an idiotic move)Arranges for three of his own ironborn to be killed and knowingly executes another innocent northman to cover his own tracks (extension of the above point)Keep in mind that even Theon as "reek" fully takes responsibility for his betrayal and deeply regrets what his actions. So why bother to absolve the man when he's declared himself guilty with the evidence backing that conclusion?I don't even hate Theon Greyjoy, I say that he's an interesting character like several others. But by trying to excuse him from criticism and "hate" just because he's "flawed and human" or that he "had a rough and hard life" are a disservice to the story and the character.Personally, I'm glad that he had a chance to somewhat redeem himself and atone for his betrayal before he meets his death. It's better to die as a redeemed Theon who's at least trying to atone for his actions than to live on as Reek who rhymes with weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLR Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I don't even hate Theon Greyjoy, I say that he's an interesting character like several others. But by trying to excuse him from criticism and "hate" just because he's "flawed and human" or that he "had a rough and hard life" are a disservice to the story and the character.Personally, I'm glad that he had a chance to somewhat redeem himself and atone for his betrayal before he meets his death. It's better to die as a redeemed Theon who's at least trying to atone for his actions than to live on as Reek who rhymes with weak.This. I like Theon's character. I hated him at a certain point but really, his story is one of the most tragic in the series. He made mistakes and paid for it dearly. To say that he didn't do anything wrong weakens the position of the OP. I would respect it more if the reason for liking Theon was because he did those things and regretted them instead of excusing what he did and redefining the meaning of "bad" just to justify his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Nope! He turns his back on the people who raised him, trained him and trusted him just so that he can get daddy to love him which includes drowing at least one northman knight that was a friend.Of course he does, that is what the majority of nobles would have done in similar circumstances.If war broke out between the North and the Vale it does not matter how much Ned loved Jon and the people he grew up with in the Eyrie, he would side with his family and his people. He'd go to war and if he believed that capturing the Vale's capital would mean less battles then he would have done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Theon was a hostage to assure Balon's good behavior. Balon misbehaved, attacking the North. Theon's life is now forfeit. He'll make a nice sacrifice to the Red God. King's blood and all that, y'know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRose1989 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 This. I like Theon's character. I hated him at a certain point but really, his story is one of the most tragic in the series. He made mistakes and paid for it dearly. To say that he didn't do anything wrong weakens the position of the OP. I would respect it more if the reason for liking Theon was because he did those things and regretted them instead of excusing what he did and redefining the meaning of "bad" just to justify his actions.Oh my lord yes!Someone who gets it! [emoji1] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPathera Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Of course he does, that is what the majority of nobles would have done in similar circumstances.If war broke out between the North and the Vale it does not matter how much Ned loved Jon and the people he grew up with in the Eyrie, he would side with his family and his people. He'd go to war and if he believed that capturing the Vale's capital would mean less battles then he would have done so.We're not talking about other nobles, we're talking about Theon here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dRagonese Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Not to excuse Theon, but in the books Ramsay is right up in his ear making suggestions to rape and kill people like the devil himself. It's totally cut out of the show, so it makes less sense. Theon was more or less rational before Ramsay got to him.this is exactly what happened. Theon was raised by Ned stark and was pretty rational and good up until his mental break after he betrayed the family he loved for the name he as born with. That doubt in his mind was enough for asshat Ramsey to worm his way into Theons head and suggest evil things that theon carried out. But without Ramsey I believe theon does no atrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 We're not talking about other nobles, we're talking about Theon here.We judge someone else's behaviour how their peers would react. Theon is merely reacting how his society expect him to, so instead of blaiming Theon for acting this way should you not be blaming the values of their society? Theon, by choosing his father and his House above his friend is perfectly in line with how others would have reacted. His intentions were to honor his agreement to allies with Robb but his father outranks him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPathera Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 We judge someone else's behaviour how their peers would react. Theon is merely reacting how his society expect him to, so instead of blaiming Theon for acting this way should you not be blaming the values of their society? Theon, by choosing his father and his House above his friend is perfectly in line with how others would have reacted. His intentions were to honor his agreement to allies with Robb but his father outranks him. Except this line of thinking is essentially a red herring where your detracting the discussion away from Theon and his own agency and towards his peers and society which are frankly irrelevant to this discussion and the OP.Nor does this absolve him of his actions.The moment that Theon bent his knee to Robb as king, he owed Robb his loyalty and when Robb trusted Theon, Theon was owed to repay that trust the best that he could. The least Theon could've done is tell Robb that the deal was off and what that meant.Instead? Robb trusts Theon and Theon backstabs him and this betrayal has huge repercussions for the North and for Robb's campaign.Society didn't make Theon commit his actions and again, you're belittling him and honestly throwing the discussion into a circular loop by trying to throw the blame elsewhere without much of a point when HE HIMSELF ADMITS THAT HE WAS WRONG. It's interesting to explore, but it doesn't absolve him. Nor should it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearodh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Just my two cents:Theon betrayed Robb. Later he realizes that he should have died with him at the Red Wedding. So I guess Theon feels similar about it.Theon committed bad crimes, killing children is also seen as bad in those times. So he did deseve punishment.But for me, he is redeemed. He has been punished harshly, he realized his wrong ways. Saving Jeyne was a first step for "making up". I hope he gets the opportunity for making good on his sins.He is not a plain bad guy (black) but also not morally right (white). Theon was a "darker gray" character and Reek is now pretty much white, together he is medium gray I guess. So he is similar to Jaime and Stannis on the "moral rating". The Boltons, Tywin, the Mountain etc. are much darker than him and characters like Ned, Brienne and Sansa are way more white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 This. I like Theon's character. I hated him at a certain point but really, his story is one of the most tragic in the series. He made mistakes and paid for it dearly. To say that he didn't do anything wrong weakens the position of the OP. I would respect it more if the reason for liking Theon was because he did those things and regretted them instead of excusing what he did and redefining the meaning of "bad" just to justify his actions.please, show me where I excused his crimes. Because I don't remember doing that, ever. In fact, the entire reason I love Theon's character is because he's so flawed, it's what makes him so interesting. And I did not "redefine" the world bad, I explained what I consider a bad person, that might be something else from what you consider a bad person but that doesn't mean that either of our definitions are the only right one because it's different for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 The moment that Theon bent his knee to Robb as king, he owed Robb his loyalty and when Robb trusted Theon, Theon was owed to repay that trust the best that he could. The least Theon could've done is tell Robb that the deal was off and what that meant.When did he ever do that in the books? He is an Ironborn citizen, whoever Balon recognizes as his King is Theon's King. If you can show me the chapter were he renounces his Greyjoy status to become a servant of Robb then you might have a point. I look forward to seeing this secret chapter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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