The Identities of the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig: Implications for Dunk

[All-Seeing Aye]

The Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig are mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire in two places.  They are the ones who assault Princess Aelora Targaryen at a masked ball, which leads to her suicide shortly thereafter.  This is an undetermined amount of time after Aelora accidentally kills her twin brother, husband, and Prince of Dragonstone Aelor Targaryen in 217 AC.

In 251 AC they lead a rebellion, against which Prince Daeron Targaryen and his friend (and probable lover) Ser Jeremy Norridge lead an army.  The trio is presumably killed, but at the cost of both Daeron and Jeremy's lives.

Now, in line with several other sections of the book clearly the fully fleshed out stories are being held back.  In this case, future Dunk and Egg novellas might cover these events, either in person or through anecdote/recollection.

But who are these three individuals?  They seem to well-known enough to the point where, much like the Smiling Knight and the two Vulture Kings, their true names are not mentioned in the histories.  They are presumably brigands or outlaws, possibly sellswords.  Perhaps they are Blackfyre agents working to knock off heirs to the throne (admittedly speculative), or they might simply be the Kingswood Brotherhood of their day.

When rereading The Mystery Knight, I was struck with a baseless but strangely compelling theory.  In short, the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig are Ferret, Rafe, and Pudding, Dunk's three childhood friends from Flea Bottom.

I will admit upfront that there is no direct evidence linking these two trios beyond the fact that they are roughly in the same time period and are proximal to King's Landing (where Aelora's masked ball would probably be held).  As we all know, there are hundreds of named individuals in this series, many of them never mentioned again.  That said, I think the theory works in well with solving the problem of how Dunk actually becomes a knight.

Ferret, Rafe, and Pudding are mentioned in only two places in The Mystery Knight:

Dunk had seen such sights before. "Back in King's Landing when I was a boy, I stole a head right off its spike once," he told Egg. Actually it had been Ferret who scampered up the wall to snatch the head, after Rafe and Pudding said he'd never dare, but when the guards came running he'd tossed it down, and Dunk was the one who'd caught it. "Some rebel lord or robber knight, it was. Or maybe just a common murderer. A head's a head. They all look the same after a few days on a spike." Him and his three friends had used the head to terrorize the girls of Flea Bottom. They'd chase them through the alleys and make them give the head a kiss before they'd let them go. That head got kissed a lot, as he recalled. There wasn't a girl in King's Landing who could run as fast as Rafe. Egg was better off not hearing that part, though. Ferret, Rafe, and Pudding. Little monsters, those three, and me the worst of all. His friends and he had kept the head until the flesh turned black and began to slough away. That took the fun out of chasing girls, so one night they burst into a pot shop and tossed what was left into the kettle.

And:

For half a heartbeat, Dunk was tempted. So long as he was armed and horsed, he would remain a knight of sorts. Without them, he was no more than a beggar. A big beggar, but a beggar all the same. But his arms and armor belonged to Ser Uthor now. So did Thunder. Better a beggar than a thief. He had been both in Flea Bottom, when he ran with Ferret, Rafe, and Pudding, but the old man had saved him from that life. He knew what Ser Arlan of Pennytree would have said to Plumm's suggestions. Ser Arlan being dead, Dunk said it for him. "Even a hedge knight has his honor."

So within these quotes there are several things at work.  Dunk's reminiscences reveal both a sort of nostalgia for his childhood of orphaned poverty in Flea Bottom and relief that he's escaped it through squiring for Ser Arlan.  There are other detailed posts out there about how Dunk was not, in fact, knighted by Ser Arlan and has been lying to everyone since The Hedge Knight.  Seriously, if you don't believe that, read through the novellas again; Dunk is not a knight.

Accepting this, there is a sort of perpetual tension in Dunk's life up to The Mystery Knight.  On one hand, he's a knight, Ser Duncan the Tall, whose name has already became widely known (Ser Uthor, for example, notes that people remember what happened at Ashford).  His squire is the nephew of Aerys I and he's gotten involved in everything from the exile of Aerion Brightflame to the Second Blackfyre Rebellion.  On the other hand, he's still Dunk of Flea Bottom, a lying orphan who has risen high on the strength of that lie and the trappings of power through Egg.

I firmly believe that at some point Dunk will be found out/exposed and that he will have to confront his past fully, not just his false knighthood but also his history in Flea Bottom.  I believe that around this point he'll meet up with his old friends from Flea Bottom, having taken noms de guerre as Blackfyre agents/brigands/simple sellswords.  I can't say with any certainty how this interaction goes, but it seems like it would be highly negative, prompting Dunk to own up to his lie and seek forgiveness from Egg.

I do believe that at some point Dunk will actually be knighted; I doubt he would be able to personally justify to himself joining the Kingsguard without actually being a knight.  Remember that he didn't want to knight Raymun Fossoway and was saved only by the timeliness of Ser Lyonel Baratheon. 

Overall, I'll say again that there's no real textual evidence linking the two trios.  But I think as a theory it allows for both some nice worldbuilding and a convenient impetus to shake Dunk out of his lie.  And regardless of that, based on the tantalizing reticence of the described events in which the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig are involved it is almost certain that they will appear in future novellas, much like the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, Lyonel Baratheon's rebellion, and Summerhall.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I really, really like this theory, especially the part about Dunk having to face his Flea Bottom past. Maybe those three are like the opposite of Dunk in that they resent nobles and want to undermine the system they see as unfair, and maybe they consider Dunk a traitor in a way for doing the nobility's bidding.

[All-Seeing Aye]

Thanks!  That's a really interesting idea about how the trio could be an inversion of Dunk in the sense that they embody the worst of what comes out of Flea Bottom instead of the best (Dunk, and also Davos Seaworth, come to think of it).  Like you said, they could see Dunk as: 'you used to be one of us, now you're a Targaryen errand boy.  Don't forget where you came from, you're nothing.'  Dunk during the trial by seven even thinks something like that, that he's not even a knight and that he's nothing.  In order to grow as a character and become a true knight in fact as well as deed, he has to move beyond this self-deprecation and sense of inherent limitation which is born of his low birth.

I see Dunk as torn somewhat between his Flea Bottom past and his current situation; he's always reminiscing about how Ser Arlan saved him but there is a sense of slight nostalgia for the wildness of his friends and their various escapades.

As I think about I am leaning towards the idea that these three are sort of a proto-Kingswood Brotherhood in that, as you mention, they resent an unfair system.  Though assaulting a princess of a blood in a ball seems like a more vicious approach than being Robin Hoods in the woods.

[RumHam]

has some discussion about that possibility if you feel like reading it. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On the on the one hand this is a great idea about his friends ending up being that notorious trio...

On the other, one of my favorite things is that you just don't know if Dunk was knighted, and in fact it is irrelevant wether some old dying knight said some words and touched him on the shoulder. It is written so the reader can believe either way, and the moral is that it isn't the words and oils that make a knight.

[All-Seeing Aye]

has some discussion about that possibility if you feel like reading it. 

Thanks, I didn't see that topic.  I think that it's a really interesting idea that the trio got their names from the animal masks they wore at the masked ball.

On the on the one hand this is a great idea about his friends ending up being that notorious trio...

On the other, one of my favorite things is that you just don't know if Dunk was knighted, and in fact it is irrelevant wether some old dying knight said some words and touched him on the shoulder. It is written so the reader can believe either way, and the moral is that it isn't the words and oils that make a knight.

I want to push back strongly against the idea that we're supposed to read it either way, but thankfully someone else has already compiled all the relevant evidence: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2s26ig/spoilers_all_dunks_knighthood/.

You're right in that GRRM is going for the idea, like with Brienne, that Dunk exemplifies the spirit and ideals of knighthood in a true way, but the fact is that he is lying about Ser Arlan knighting him before he died.  To read the text otherwise is to insert ambiguity where there is none.  Clearly for the sake of narrative tension Dunk can't constantly be thinking about that fact (sort of how like Ned in AGOT can't think in his POV 'Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar' without losing the literary drama), but it pops up, as quoted in the link, at the right times and with consistency.

Again, I think that it's probable that it's his interactions with the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig, his former childhood friends from Flea Bottom turned vicious outlaws, that will push him to own up to his lie.  Also, perhaps when Egg is old enough for knighthood himself he'll clearly want Dunk to knight him, and Dunk would have enough guilt over that to either tell the truth on the spot or strike out on his own.  One of the upcoming Dunk and Novellas is named The Sellsword, and we know from the endnote to A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms that they'll eventually travel to the Free Cities and the Disputed Lands.  Seems like a perfect time for some soul-searching/Blackfyre conspiracies/meeting up with childhood friends.  And it would bring the Egg-Dunk dynamic full circle, with their chance meeting built on a lie to initial adventures, to a falling out over Dunk's lie and eventually strengthening their friendship after a series of trials (possibly culminating in the Third Blackfyre Rebellion).

[Saving Stannis]

Any chance someone could link me with a thread or cite some quotes supporting the idea that Dunk has been lying about being knighted by Ser Arlen? Not doubting the legitimacy of the claim, I just don't remember the revelation. 

There are other detailed posts out there about how Dunk was not, in fact, knighted by Ser Arlan and has been lying to everyone since The Hedge Knight.  Seriously, if you don't believe that, read through the novellas again; Dunk is not a knight.

[RumHam]

Any chance someone could link me with a thread or cite some quotes supporting the idea that Dunk has been lying about being knighted by Ser Arlen? Not doubting the legitimacy of the claim, I just don't remember the revelation. 

At the beginning of The Hedge Knight when Dunk is Burying Ser Arlan he thinks:

I could find another hedge knight in need of a squire to tend his animals and clean his mail, he thought, or might be I could go to some city, to Lannisport or King’s Landing, and join the City Watch. Or else . . .

If Arlan really knighted him, why is his first thought to find another knight to squire for? I mean that pretty much clenches it right there. Then later he's hesitant to knight that Fossoway. Finally there's this:

Dunk looked at him thoughtfully. He knew what it was like to want something so badly that you would tell a monstrous lie just to get near it. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

You may think it's clear as day, I'm not disputing that his lie is heavily alluded/pointed too, but I still think it is intentionally left unclear. You (or any number of quotes) can't prove he wasn't knighted, yet..

 

Also bad example with the Jon thing, it's Dany that makes Ned think of Lyanna, you are putting your own assumptions on the story again...

[RumHam]

You may think it's clear as day, I'm not disputing that his lie is heavily alluded/pointed too, but I still think it is intentionally left unclear. You (or any number of quotes) can't prove he wasn't knighted, yet..

 

Also bad example with the Jon thing, it's Dany that makes Ned think of Lyanna, you are putting your own assumptions on the story again...

I agree with All-Seeing Aye that it's not ambiguous at all, but for the record Martin apparently confirmed that Dunk was not knighted.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1307

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Hahaha a cute little synopsis of a summary of a report that a reporter once heard Martin aledgedly say... Text or nothing

I don't know why this is really an argument though, I mean it is clearly implied that he lied about being knighted, but the reader doesn't know the truth... Shit... Maybe he killed Pennytree, maybe Pennytree knighted him in his sleep... The whole point is it doesn't matter if he was "knighted" or not

[aryagonnakill#2]

Thanks!  That's a really interesting idea about how the trio could be an inversion of Dunk in the sense that they embody the worst of what comes out of Flea Bottom instead of the best (Dunk, and also Davos Seaworth, come to think of it).  Like you said, they could see Dunk as: 'you used to be one of us, now you're a Targaryen errand boy.  Don't forget where you came from, you're nothing.'  Dunk during the trial by seven even thinks something like that, that he's not even a knight and that he's nothing.  In order to grow as a character and become a true knight in fact as well as deed, he has to move beyond this self-deprecation and sense of inherent limitation which is born of his low birth.

Just for the sake of things, I'll point out that it's actually 3 good and 3 bad, Gendry was from Flea Bottom until he apprenticed with Tobho Mott.

 

Edit: I'll also add that I agree there is no ambiguity in Dunk not being knighted, he is clearly paralleling Dunk and Brienne's stories with Brienne not being knighted either.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Long time stalker, first time poster.  Here we go! 

I am hoping that All Seeing Aye (and to others who may have also theorized) is correct in this theory.  I am also convinced that the Rat, Hawk, and Pig are Dunk's three buddies from FB.  I believe this would do a lot to develop Dunk's character in a future tale (should GRRM choose to go this direction and they are revealed to be the Rat, Hawk, and Pig). These three ungentlemanly gentleman could be the first characters we meet from Dunk's life before The Hedge Knight. They would certainly add a different view of Dunk which we haven't seen yet with tales of tossing around severed heads and all.

However, I do not believe the Rat, Hawk, and Pig are the same three gentleman that are mentioned in the rebellion in 251.  There is too much time in between the Aelora incident (shortly after 217) and the rebellion (251). If Dunk's buddies are around his age (Dunk was born around 192) this would make them around 59 or 60 years old at the rebellion. This is an older age for anyone but especially 3 criminals/rebels. I acknowledge that it is very possible but I feel it is too unlikely. I think the Rat, Hawk, and Pig from the rebellion are simply using the Rat, Hawk, and Pig as a symbol for their hatred towards all things Targaryen. Hopefully we find out someday! 

First post complete. A lot of parentheses....

[All-Seeing Aye]

Long time stalker, first time poster.  Here we go! 

I am hoping that All Seeing Aye (and to others who may have also theorized) is correct in this theory.  I am also convinced that the Rat, Hawk, and Pig are Dunk's three buddies from FB.  I believe this would do a lot to develop Dunk's character in a future tale (should GRRM choose to go this direction and they are revealed to be the Rat, Hawk, and Pig). These three ungentlemanly gentleman could be the first characters we meet from Dunk's life before The Hedge Knight. They would certainly add a different view of Dunk which we haven't seen yet with tales of tossing around severed heads and all.

However, I do not believe the Rat, Hawk, and Pig are the same three gentleman that are mentioned in the rebellion in 251.  There is too much time in between the Aelora incident (shortly after 217) and the rebellion (251). If Dunk's buddies are around his age (Dunk was born around 192) this would make them around 59 or 60 years old at the rebellion. This is an older age for anyone but especially 3 criminals/rebels. I acknowledge that it is very possible but I feel it is too unlikely. I think the Rat, Hawk, and Pig from the rebellion are simply using the Rat, Hawk, and Pig as a symbol for their hatred towards all things Targaryen. Hopefully we find out someday! 

First post complete. A lot of parentheses....

Assuming this theory is true at least for the 'first' iteration of the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig, I agree that it would be up in the air as to whether it's the same trio in 251 AC.  Perhaps, like the second Vulture King, they simply appropriate a historical identity.

At the same time, the wording in TWOIAF on the rebellion in 251 AC, on the surface, seems to read as if the author is talking about the same individuals. 

Regardless of whether it's the same trio, or even whether the friends from Flea Bottom are their true identities, it seems likely we'll hear more about them in future Dunk and Egg stories (either in person or by anecdote).

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

 

Regardless of whether it's the same trio, or even whether the friends from Flea Bottom are their true identities, it seems likely we'll hear more about them in future Dunk and Egg stories (either in person or by anecdote).

I certainly hope so! Although the mention by GRRM at the end of TMK about taking D & E to the Free Cities and Disputed Lands makes me think that we will only learn about these three through anecdote or recollection, if at all.This being based on the location of the Aelora incident (assuming it takes place in KL, I can't recall for sure at the moment). It would be nice to learn anything about these three, but even better to learn through meeting them. But who knows what will happen?  

Oh yeah, George knows...

[Lord Varys]

Interesting to see that somebody else also considers this an interesting option.

That said, my take on it was that Rafe, Ferret, and Pudding would sort of act as foils for Dunk in the sense that they could show how low you can sink if you don't meet the right people/meet the wrong people/are not offered the correct choices. I don't think Dunk's Flea Bottom life will come back to haunt him, at least not in regards to the things he did back them. He was too young to do anything really nasty. However, it may haunt him in the sense that he escaped this life and the people he once knew/were friends with became criminals and murderers.

Aelora's Rat, Hawk, and Pig could still be the same guys as Daeron's guys considering that Dunk and Egg are also still around in 251 AC, arguably a little bit older though. In this time they clearly don't seem to be thugs but rather powerful enough to trigger a rebellion of their own. You can do this as a man in your fifties/early sixties, after all.

The masked ball which causes Aelora's death could be a very interesting event. The standard theory is that it might mark the beginning of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion and has Bittersteel's agents - three of which could be Rafe, Ferret, and Pudding as the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig, perhaps acting as some sort of guides or through the hidden tunnels (like Blood and Cheese) or simply as gate openers if they end up joining the Goldcloaks or the Raven's Teeth - infiltrating the Red Keep to murder Daemon II Blackfyre (which will be successful) and Aerys I (to throw the Realm into chaos).

Dunk and Egg can save the king, but fail to get to Aelora in time - who may not have been a target considering that she was female and apparently mad at this point but only ends up attacked because the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig are really nasty people.

Even if this whole theory is complete bogus I think there is a good chance that we'll eventually meet Dunk's childhood buddies. George does not often introduce people in the memories of others who are irrelevant or not showing up in the future. Bloodraven is the best example for that - in TSS Dunk remembers seeing him once in KL, and in TMK we finally meet him in person for the first time.

[dornishdame]

Interesting ideas! I love the concept of Dunk's Flea Bottom past coming back to haunt him.  It would be an opportunity for Dunk to understand just how far he has come, and to see what his life could/would have been had Ser Arlan not turned up. 

You're right in that GRRM is going for the idea, like with Brienne, that Dunk exemplifies the spirit and ideals of knighthood in a true way, but the fact is that he is lying about Ser Arlan knighting him before he died.  To read the text otherwise is to insert ambiguity where there is none.  Clearly for the sake of narrative tension Dunk can't constantly be thinking about that fact (sort of how like Ned in AGOT can't think in his POV 'Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar' without losing the literary drama), but it pops up, as quoted in the link, at the right times and with consistency.

Again, I think that it's probable that it's his interactions with the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig, his former childhood friends from Flea Bottom turned vicious outlaws, that will push him to own up to his lie.  Also, perhaps when Egg is old enough for knighthood himself he'll clearly want Dunk to knight him, and Dunk would have enough guilt over that to either tell the truth on the spot or strike out on his own.  One of the upcoming Dunk and Novellas is named The Sellsword, and we know from the endnote to A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms that they'll eventually travel to the Free Cities and the Disputed Lands. 

I agree that Dunk's attitude with regards to knighthood is similar to that of Brienne's, but it is also a theme I think he explores through the comparison set out between Sandor and Gregor, reinforcing through direct comparison between the two brothers the non-knight who acts in a way that could be considered as upholding the vows of a knight (such as Sandor's attempts to protect Sansa from Joffrey) versus the knight who attacks the weak rather than protecting them.  In fact, when considering the vows of a knight it seems that in the series as a whole, there are more examples of knightly behavior among non-knights then knights. 

There will be some comeback for Dunk when it is time for Egg to be knighted, and it will be interesting to see what happens to repair any damage this may cause between Dunk and Egg. 

Finally, on a sidebar, the title - the rat, the hawk and the pig made me think of an old fifteenth century rhyme regarding the reign of Richard III:

The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell our Dog                                                                                                                                                 Ruled all England under a Hog

This referred to the prominence of William Catesby, Richard Ratcliffe and Francis Lovell during Richard's reign.  Not sure that it has anything to do with Dunk, or the identity of those who frightened Aelora, but it was the first thing that came into my head when I saw the rat, the hawk and the pig!

[winstonwelles]

Ugh. Just wrote a huge post about this, first time ever commenting on this site, and it got lost. Oh well, I'll just mention one point:

On 12/15/2015 at 5:57 PM, All-Seeing Aye said:

"Some rebel lord or robber knight, it was. Or maybe just a common murderer. A head's a head. They all look the same after a few days on a spike." Him and his three friends had used the head to terrorize the girls of Flea Bottom. They'd chase them through the alleys and make them give the head a kiss before they'd let them go.

The second bold section looks like a parallel to Aelora's assault; taunting women with the spectre of death. Maybe they tried doing the same thing to a royal princess, not expecting the consequences that would end up having, and were forced to flee King's Landing before their identities were discovered (members of the Goldcloaks perhaps? They'd have to have some way of infiltrating a royal masque).

Then perhaps the first bold section suggests what happens to them next; once living outside the city, perhaps bragging about what they did, they set themselves up as robber knights with fake knighthoods (just like Dunk) and take sigils referencing their masques. This would be an appropriate point for Dunk to catch up with them, and end the matter quietly. I find it hard to imagine such lowlifes really ending up fomenting a rebellion against the crown, but the idea that some rebel lords would later use the spectre of the Rat, the Hawk and the Pig that embarrassed the crown several years earlier as a banner to rally behind is easier to believe. (Also, if the legendary Ser Duncan the Tall had helped to put down that rebellion, you'd expect the histories to mention it.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

Bump.

[sweetsunray]

What I find curious is how in a few years time we have the following

1. 215 AC: Crown Prince of Dragonstone Rhaegel chokes on lamprey pie
2. 217 AC: Crown Prince of Dragonstone, Aelor, Rhaegel's son, gets killed in some grotesque mishap by the hand of his twin and wife Aelora. She went mad with grief because of it.
3. sometime after: Aelora is attacked by the 3 men (Rat, Hawk and Pig) at a masked ball and she kills herself after

Anyone wondering here like me?

• "He choked on his pie!" aka the Strangler
• Person obviously loving someone ends up killing them in some freak, grotesque way aka Basilisk Poison
• A physical assault on a woman who might be pregnant with the heir of the husband she accidentally killed, aka get her to miscarry. Or if they raped her, it was to cause reasonable doubt that the child she might have been pregnant with would never be accepted as trueborn. She ended up killing herself though, so makes no matter as end result.

I'd say it's possible that the Rat, Hawk and Pig at least in the Aelora incident are Dunk's Flea Bottom friends who became hired thugs to assault people.