Is Benedict Justman an Andal, or First Men??

[John Doe]

He probably worshipped the Seven, which makes him an Andal. Being an Andal is as much a religious identity as an ethnic identity.

No, the Targs are no andals either, it's ethnic.

[StarkofWinterfell]

He probably worshipped the Seven, which makes him an Andal. Being an Andal is as much a religious identity as an ethnic identity.

Or a subspecies

[AlaskanSandman]

Hmm. I didn't think there would be this much debate over the Andals and what classifies you as Andal.. should i change the Subject thread? 

Again, worshiping the Faith of the Seven does not make you Andal. The Targaryens worshiped the Faith of the Seven but were Valyrian, never once identifying with the Andals. The text clearly talks about the Andals and Valyrians as separate people.

I personally dont understand the debate. The Andals are a race of people who follow a religion called the Faith of the Seven. The Religion started with them but can be worshiped by people of other races. There fore, worshiping the Faith of the Seven, does NOT make you an Andal. Being of Andal blood makes you an Andal.

[joluoto2]

Hmm. I didn't think there would be this much debate over the Andals and what classifies you as Andal.. should i change the Subject thread? 

Again, worshiping the Faith of the Seven does not make you Andal. The Targaryens worshiped the Faith of the Seven but were Valyrian, never once identifying with the Andals. The text clearly talks about the Andals and Valyrians as separate people.

I personally dont understand the debate. The Andals are a race of people who follow a religion called the Faith of the Seven. The Religion started with them but can be worshiped by people of other races. There fore, worshiping the Faith of the Seven, does NOT make you an Andal. Being of Andal blood makes you an Andal.

Most Southern Westerosi identifies themselves as Andal although they have much more First Men blood than Andal blood, so...

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

The problem with this whole discussion is that, as Lord Varys pointed out; no one actually identifies as either First Men or Andal in Westeros, save for the Thenns.

Everyone seems to accept that they have ancestry from both, these groups were defined because they moved as a group to Westeros, once that have settled then nothing clearly defines them as a group any more. Much like how no one in modern Britain would consider themselves Saxons, Danes, Romans, Celts or Neolithic British, once these groups have settled down they cease to be greatly distinct from the preexisting population.

However I think it is wrong to view the nobility as so overwhelmingly Andal dominated, there may have been a point at which the heads of major First Men houses married pure Andal brides from a couple of generations, but after that they are back to marrying women who are more First Men in descent or mixed.

Overall I'd guess that the makeup of highborn ancestry is close to 50:50, but it could be as extreme as 3:1 either way, who knows? The only way I can think to have some idea is to work out the descent of characters by hair colour, however we don't know the range of hair colours of each group, nor do we have a large enough mixed sample, and since Martin's genetics isn't the best it would be impossible to estimate how many blond genes are needed to produce a certain percentage of blond people.

[Lord Varys]

I'd say all the people south of the Neck are essentially considering themselves to be Andals culturally while they would still be very much First Man ethnically, especially the smallfolk. After all, those Andal houses that were founded and thrived in Westeros would have married as many First Men women as Andal women married into First Men nobility, and would therefore no longer be 'pure-blooded Andals' either.

Culturally, the Andals clearly took over the southern kingdoms of Westeros. The Faith, knighthood, chivalry, steel-making, etc. prevailed in Westeros. Steel-making even spread out into the North eventually.

In exchange, the Andal zealotry seemed to subside soon after they had acquired some power, and the Andals adopted the whole reverence thing for the godswoods in the castles and stuff.

In regards to the culture of the First Men we have the 'lukewarm First Men of the North' like the Starks who pretty much abandoned most of their ancient First Men traditions the other more primeval First Men still uphold (i.e. the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon and the wildlings). Even in the North there are more primitive/primeval First Men left that the Starks - the crannogmen and the clansmen of the North certainly are such.

If you compare the Starks as First Men to the wildlings as First Men then the Starks pretty much look exactly like the southron lords aside from the 'no executioner' and the 'praying in the godswood' thing. That is not really a big difference.

[direpupy]

1. Roose has Amory Lorch thrown in the bear pit in ACoK and he has the squatters in Winterfell hanged who hid among the ruins prior to his arrival there. This is more than enough evidence that Roose Bolton doesn't execute any criminal (or person he wants to get rid of) in his power personally.

2. The Thennish lifestyle could reflect an aspect of First Men culture as well but it is clearly not the predominant culture if the clansmen of the Mountains of the Moons are any indication. They are all direct descendants of those First Men who were driven into the mountains by the Andals after they took over the Vale. I assume the Thenns developed their culture/society on their own, most likely triggered by the fact that their valley was very fertile for some reason, allowing them to develop a more sophisticated culture over time. Nothing suggests the ancient First Men all throughout Westeros once had a culture/society similar to the Thenns.

3. That would be special Thenn culture. Not that the demigod aspect is missing in all the other cultures in Westeros. I did not say there were no First Men kingdoms prior to the Andal arrival. There certainly were such kingdoms. What I said is that those kingdoms would have been very different from the later modern kingdoms we know, with a different concept of kingship and nobility (flat hierarchies, nobility actually being guys who were capable of leading/getting stuff done, and kings essentially being the top dog chieftains who were respected by their peers because of their charisma and personality - like Mance is). This is, of course, not discussed in TWoIaF - but then, there wouldn't be any firsthand sources to be found in Westeros. But the idea that the importance of blood and ancestry was already predominant in the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes makes little sense.

4. I don't follow you there. Putting a label on yourself claiming you are this and that doesn't make it so unless you have authority to define everything to suit your needs. I'd agree that the Starks still see themselves as First Men, but I'm not sure they can claim this if it is referring to racial purity or the customs they follow. If you reread Jon's various conversations with the Free Folk (Ygritte, Mance, Tormund, etc.) you'll notice that the true First Men are the wildlings, not the tamed kneelers south of the Wall. The Starks effectively practice a diluted or corrupted version of the worship of the old gods if you compare it to the piety of Varamyr's parents or the other wildlings who actually still sacrifice beings to their heart trees (there were burned remains in the mouth of that tree in Whitetree if I remember correctly) and they also still believe in the connected animism behind/beneath the weirwood cult (the woods witch telling Varamyr's parents what happened to his brother after his death, and Varamyr effectively experiencing something like that when he experienced his true death).

5. Gerrick Kingsblood is ridiculed because he is neither a leader nor very strong. Assuming he was a strong and powerful guy like Mance nobody would dare question his ancestry from Raymun Redbeard. Might makes right among the wildlings, and therefore it should be rather easy to claim you are descended from this or that guy or demand that people address you as Stark, Hightower, or Gardener if you have the power to punish anyone who defies you. In a society that slowly transits from the law of the jungle to a society in which bloodlines and dynasties are honored and revered it should be very easy to fake your ancestry or claim that you are this or that guy's great-grandson. I'm not saying that this necessarily had an effect on the time covered by the series, though. I did not intend to say that ancestry and civilization were not yet in existence when the Andals came - I said the petty kingdoms of that time were different from those created after Andals had arrived. They would have been already kingdoms of some sort, but not yet as sophisticated as the later Andal kingdoms, and especially the wilder kingdoms up in the North closer to the Wall would have been not as absolute as the more sophisticated kingdoms - for instance, the Lannisters were always the predominant and most powerful kings in the West due to the security and wealth of Casterly Rock and their control of Lannisport just as the semi-divine origin of the Gardeners and their magical living throne gave them an aura of superiority no other king in Westeros ever had. By comparison, the Starks had to beat many of the other northern into submission.

6. The stories of mythical ancestors could only come up in a time in which ancestry had become important to legitimize political power. All we can say is that the stories of Brandon the Builder, Garth the Gardener (not necessarily Garth Greenhand because he seems to be as much a religious/divine figure as a mythical ancestor), Lann the Clever, and so on reflect the desire of the later generations to have a legendary founder of their house. Whether that guy really existed or not or whether they actually descend from him or her isn't proven by the mere existence of such a story. All this proves is that the ancestry was already important when those stories came. Now, it could be that this was already the case when (some of) those legendary figures lived, but it is just as likely that it only happened decades or centuries later (i.e. after the Long Night) and then certain people began connecting those legendary figures to their own bloodlines and noble houses. You would have noted that no legendary founder actually had a house name, after all.

1) Wat hapened to Amory Lorch is not a execution but creul torment that leads to dead, and yes he had them hung but did he order his men to do that and go for lunch, or did he precide over the executions thus taking a personel hand in them? truth be told until we get a bigger pool of exampels than Ned and Roose nothing definitif can be said on this point.

2) The clans of the Mountains of the Moon can not be taken as example becouse they fell to savagery, out of nececity to survive they had to forgo civilised ways and resort to banditry and raids otherwise they would die.and your assumptions on the Thenn's are not backed up by anithing hell the term Magnar means lord in the old tongue and even you can't denie that the First Men had lords so if anithing they held one to there culture while the Wildling like the clans of the Mountains of the Moon fell to savagery, after the wall cut them of of the rest of Westeros.

3) This is just how you personally would like it to be not how it is decribed in any of the books be it the series or twoiaf exept for the kingship among the Crannogmen. but why would they make a point of telling how there kingship was so different if that was once the norm? Im sorry but the only thing that does not make any sence is your theory wich can for as far as i am consened be savely discounted as your personel fanfiction (do i do enjoy reading your theorys since they always do contain snippeds of wisdom from the books that i myself have missed).

4) Actually when it comes to racial purity the Andals don't exist any more either becouse they heavely intermarried with the First Men, what's more there where atually more First Men than Andal's so if any blood is dominant in the mix of Andal and First Men it would be the blood of the First Men a quote from page 20 of twoiaf "For despite everything, the First Men were far more numerous than the Andals and could not simply be forced aside." As for the rest of wat you say thats purely religion, and like so many in this tread have pointed out worshipping the seven does not make you a Andal, similarly worshipping the old gods does not make you a First Men, afteral they took there religion from The Children of the Forest to begin with.

5) No matter how hard you yell your decendent of someone your enemies if they know your lying wil gladly use that against u, even defeated enemies wil stil tell the story behind your back. The rest is your fanfiction again, you do know the North was united in a single kingdom by the time that the Andal invasion's began don't u? Do you really think they could have held there kingdom together if they where as primitive as you say? And whats more you say yourself that the Stark's had to beat many other kingdoms in to submission, do you really think they would have first defeated them and then have turned around and said "now we will rule you as first among equels" that just does not make any sence.

6) This is a valid point and really where i am reminded why you are one of my favorite posters, this is the stuff that has made me a fan of your post's and why even when i disagree with you and think you have fallen af of the deep end i still respect you and your opinion on many a matter.

Reading this post back to myself i feel like i am coming on to you very strongly and i do hope that you do not feel insulted by this, as i said i do respect you and your opinions and always enjoy reading your post's, and i am looking forward to your next one.

 

[direpupy]

I had not yet read this post when i made my last one sorry about that should have read this one first although it does not change my opinion, it is relevant to what i said in response to you and our discussion as a whole. Especially the part where you say that there are no pure-blooded Andal's any more.

I'd say all the people south of the Neck are essentially considering themselves to be Andals culturally while they would still be very much First Man ethnically, especially the smallfolk. After all, those Andal houses that were founded and thrived in Westeros would have married as many First Men women as Andal women married into First Men nobility, and would therefore no longer be 'pure-blooded Andals' either.

Culturally, the Andals clearly took over the southern kingdoms of Westeros. The Faith, knighthood, chivalry, steel-making, etc. prevailed in Westeros. Steel-making even spread out into the North eventually.

In exchange, the Andal zealotry seemed to subside soon after they had acquired some power, and the Andals adopted the whole reverence thing for the godswoods in the castles and stuff.

In regards to the culture of the First Men we have the 'lukewarm First Men of the North' like the Starks who pretty much abandoned most of their ancient First Men traditions the other more primeval First Men still uphold (i.e. the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon and the wildlings). Even in the North there are more primitive/primeval First Men left that the Starks - the crannogmen and the clansmen of the North certainly are such.

If you compare the Starks as First Men to the wildlings as First Men then the Starks pretty much look exactly like the southron lords aside from the 'no executioner' and the 'praying in the godswood' thing. That is not really a big difference.

That the south is culturally Andal i can agree with, and that the Northmen have given up parts of there culture i also can not disagree with there is ample evidence for that. But that does not change the fact that the Northmen think of themselves as First Men.

[Beautiful Balon]

FIrst men and Andals are social constructs

[Taenqyrhae]

The thing is, the vast majority of all the Houses in Westeros are of First Men origin, the people of Westeros are all mostly First Men. Yet they call themselves Andals. The reason why is because of the Faith of the Seven. It's because of the religion the majority of First Men started to identify as Andals.

Kind of like how the Holy Roman Empire was not really Roman (or holy or an empire, but that's beside the point).

[Dofs]

Hmm. I didn't think there would be this much debate over the Andals and what classifies you as Andal.. should i change the Subject thread? 

Again, worshiping the Faith of the Seven does not make you Andal. The Targaryens worshiped the Faith of the Seven but were Valyrian, never once identifying with the Andals. The text clearly talks about the Andals and Valyrians as separate people.

I personally dont understand the debate. The Andals are a race of people who follow a religion called the Faith of the Seven. The Religion started with them but can be worshiped by people of other races. There fore, worshiping the Faith of the Seven, does NOT make you an Andal. Being of Andal blood makes you an Andal.

The's true in theory but not always happens in practice. Religion is one of the things that can "change" ethnicities of the people, in particularly, for example, Islam. There was already an example about Turkified Greeks but more notorious example is modern day Arabs. A huge number of Arabs today are Arabized Sumerians, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Akkadians, Egyptians, Berbers etc. and they all "became" Arabs because they got converted to Islam. Modern day Assyrians are exclusively Christian. Why is that? Because those Assyrians who got converted to Islam started to speak Arabic and identify themselves as Arabs.

Same thing happened in the South of Westeros. The Faith of the Seven made people identify themselves as Andals, even thought by blood there should be much more First Men in them than Andal as the amount of Andals coming to Westeros was vastly inferior to the First Men already living there.

[joluoto2]

He is identified as an Andal, that makes him an Andal. Doesn't mean he necessary has to be of much Andal blood if any.