Any Chance Shae Had Any Sort of Feelings for Tyrion

[Maxxine]

So I'm the type of person that likes to give people the benefit of the doubt. So I'm just if anyone believes that there is a chance that Shae did feel something for Tyrion and the their whole relationship just wasn't a complete act. Maybe she wasn't full blown in love but was there at least some sort of care for Tyrion. Obviously in the end she betrayed him and could have caused his death. But we don't have her POV or any of the POV of someone who interrogated her. Any chance she was just threatened so she felt she had no choice. Or did she at least have some sort of internal dispute about making this decision. Or did she just decide to betray Tyrion with no second thought because she really didn't give a damn about him? As I said I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I like to think that she did somewhat care about Tyrion and maybe at least it was a hard decision to be witness against him at the trial and sleep with Tywin. But she just chose her life over Tyrion's. Selfish yes, but still understandable and does not necessarily mean that she didn't care.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm pretty sure one of the perfectly genuine feelings she had for him was fear.  What she said on the witness stand was probably fairly close to what she actually believed, with not too much exaggeration.  She was genuinely afraid of him, and with good reason.  Does that count as "giving her the benefit of the doubt"?

[The Skinner]

I do not believe that Shae had feelings for Tyrion, I believe that Tyrion was correct every time he reminded himself that Shae was a whore who only was with him because he was rich and a Lannister. There was no mention of her showing any emotion of remorse or guilt during the trial and her dialogue with him is mostly sex, sweet talk afterwards, and her asking to be able to wear her expensive jewelry, dresses and asking to go to court and the wedding and other big events. That being said I don't think she was actually in a good position to say no to whoever was asking her to testify. However I don't think it took to much convincing to get her to testify against him. I really don't blame her for doing it, she was a whore who was now wealthier than she ever thought she would be because of Tyrion, he gets arrested and now she's going to lose all that. She must have been approached by someone to provide false testimony against him. She might have been offered to keep all those nice things or some other reward; and if she said no what else could she expect but some sort of reprisal. I mean she was the Hand's whore, she knew how things were in KL

[Jaime4Brienne]

1000% No!! She was just doing a job, that's it. Tyrion was stupid. He couldn't see her for what she was.

[princess_snow]

NO way. I agree with everybody else above.   

[Taenqyrhae]

Feelings of disgust, maybe.

 

[Damsel in Distress]

She may have some fondness for him but it wasn't love.  You have to think this way.  Shae is a survivor and Tyrion is the son of the most powerful man in the kingdom.  Women like her are but their playthings.  She will play the part of girlfriend as long as Tyrion can give her what she needs.   Gold, security, and a chance to become a very rich man's girl.  She lost her feelings as soon as Sansa came into the picture.  Besides, we really don't know what Cersei and Tywin might have told her before they dragged her to the witness stand.  They could have told her, Tyrion was the one who wanted to marry Sansa, to inherit Winterfell. 

[Maxxine]

She may have some fondness for him but it wasn't love.  You have to think this way.  Shae is a survivor and Tyrion is the son of the most powerful man in the kingdom.  Women like her are but their playthings.  She will play the part of girlfriend as long as Tyrion can give her what she needs.   Gold, security, and a chance to become a very rich man's girl.  She lost her feelings as soon as Sansa came into the picture.  Besides, we really don't know what Cersei and Tywin might have told her before they dragged her to the witness stand.  They could have told her, Tyrion was the one who wanted to marry Sansa, to inherit Winterfell. 

I can settle for "fondness". And right we don't know what Cersei, Tywin, or whoever interrogated her told her. That's why I feel like I can give her the benefit of the doubt.

[HexMachina]

 

I can settle for "fondness". And right we don't know what Cersei, Tywin, or whoever interrogated her told her. That's why I feel like I can give her the benefit of the doubt.

She doesn't need the benefit of the doubt. She doesn't have any obligation at all to care about Tyrion. He paid her to have sex with him, be with him, and feign affection for him. He was just another job, nothing more. 

[FuzzyJAM]

She may have had some fondness at occasional points but I doubt it.  He certainly gives her no reason to like him.

I will say that I find it exceptionally odd that people feel like she did something very wrong or betrayed Tyrion.  From the very start, Tyrion specifically asks her to pretend to love him.  When she pretends to care about him, she's fulfilling the very specific contract given to her.  You don't get to whine when someone successfully does what they're hired to do, especially when you don't actually pay them and the power dynamics have been ridiculously stacked in your favour.  That Tyrion gets mad at Shae for fulfilling her contract is a great weakness in him.  But I can at least see why Tyrion gets mad, he's a damaged man.  However, that much of the audience also gets angry with her - that suggests people really aren't understanding that just because the PoV character thinks in one way ("Shae is a terrible whore bitch!!") doesn't mean they have to.

Tyrion took Shae from another man with his superior wealth and power.  He saw no problem with that once he ascertained that they were no threat to him.  So according to Tyrion, Shae wasn't doing anything wrong when she "defected" to Tyrion.  So how can he bitch when she switched from him after he loses all wealth and power?  Do people not notice what GRRM is doing there, pointing out Tyrion's hypocrisy, or do they just not care and hate her even having seen this?  

Now, don't get me wrong, lying in a court of law is a bad thing, and it's the one bad thing she does.  But even then, she did no worse than the multitude of other characters who lied.  In fact, it's considerably less bad, because most of those other characters probably weren't utterly terrified for their lives. Remember how the woman thought to be Shae gets whipped?  You seriously think Cersei was offering Shae a choice beyond prosecution or death?  You think she had anyone to protect her?  Was she supposed to die to protect Tyrion, a man who lied to her, isolated her, and (people seem to forget this part) murdered the one person she got close to?  OK, sure, that would have been the truly moral thing, to die to protect someone you have every reason to hate even though it'd be nothing more than a gesture, but in a series where people can defend child murderers and so on and so on, it's got to be the lightest shade of immoral action you can think of.

Tyrion's murder of Shae is a truly horrific act.  Of course from his mindset it's "deserved" so that's how it's represented in the books, but have some actual reflection!  It was an awful thing to do; Shae was a major victim deserving of great sympathy.  And yet it's her murderer Tyrion who gets all the sympathy from the readership.

[Lord Varys]

Nobody but Tysha and, perhaps, Penny loved Tyrion in a romantic way. The man is just an ugly and insecure dwarf. Being smart and funny on occasion doesn't help you around (very) beautiful women. But I'm also pretty sure that she liked him reasonably well as a patron and protector. Tyrion himself did the best he could to ensure that she would never develop deeper feelings for her by slapping her, telling her the Tysha story, and generally treating her as nothing but his silly little whore. Granted, Shae clearly never was the sharpest knife in the box, but whatever arrangement/relationship they had could have worked much better if Tyrion had even make an attempt to explain to her what was going on, why he was so afraid of his father and sister, and so on. But he did nothing of this sort. Granted, in ASoS Vary does everything in his power to preserve and deepen Tyrion's obsession with Shae, most likely in preparation for the grand finale, but he is only exploiting this, he did not create the dynamics.

The idea that Shae betrayed Tyrion at the trial is just ridiculous.

The whole trial was rigged to condemn Tyrion - Tywin, Cersei, and Mace all wanted to convict Tyrion, and the idea that Tywin would sleep with a woman who didn't exactly testify during the trial what he wanted her to testify is insane. If Tywin had felt Shae's testimony had offended or humiliated in public he would have had Shae's head, too, not her cunt.

More importantly, Shae was in a very precarious position after Tyrion's arrest and Sansa's disappearance. She was Sansa's maid, and thus herself an obvious suspect in the whole murder.

It is clear to anyone who has eyes to see that Shae only delivered the testimony she did to save her own life - and her last words to Tyrion make that clear. She thinks he understands what she had been forced to do, and that he'll take her with him when he escapes. It also makes sense that she is afraid of Tywin - you know, the guy fucked the whore/mistress of his own son, a man he intends to behead on the morrow. Tywin is a much more twisted person than Tyrion ever was.

Thus, anyone who thinks Shae had a choice as to what she would testify during the trial is very much mistaken.

[Maxxine]

She may have had some fondness at occasional points but I doubt it.  He certainly gives her no reason to like him.

I will say that I find it exceptionally odd that people feel like she did something very wrong or betrayed Tyrion.  From the very start, Tyrion specifically asks her to pretend to love him.  When she pretends to care about him, she's fulfilling the very specific contract given to her.  You don't get to whine when someone successfully does what they're hired to do, especially when you don't actually pay them and the power dynamics have been ridiculously stacked in your favour.  That Tyrion gets mad at Shae for fulfilling her contract is a great weakness in him.  But I can at least see why Tyrion gets mad, he's a damaged man.  However, that much of the audience also gets angry with her - that suggests people really aren't understanding that just because the PoV character thinks in one way ("Shae is a terrible whore bitch!!") doesn't mean they have to.

Tyrion took Shae from another man with his superior wealth and power.  He saw no problem with that once he ascertained that they were no threat to him.  So according to Tyrion, Shae wasn't doing anything wrong when she "defected" to Tyrion.  So how can he bitch when she switched from him after he loses all wealth and power?  Do people not notice what GRRM is doing there, pointing out Tyrion's hypocrisy, or do they just not care and hate her even having seen this?  

Now, don't get me wrong, lying in a court of law is a bad thing, and it's the one bad thing she does.  But even then, she did no worse than the multitude of other characters who lied.  In fact, it's considerably less bad, because most of those other characters probably weren't utterly terrified for their lives. Remember how the woman thought to be Shae gets whipped?  You seriously think Cersei was offering Shae a choice beyond prosecution or death?  You think she had anyone to protect her?  Was she supposed to die to protect Tyrion, a man who lied to her, isolated her, and (people seem to forget this part) murdered the one person she got close to?  OK, sure, that would have been the truly moral thing, to die to protect someone you have every reason to hate even though it'd be nothing more than a gesture, but in a series where people can defend child murderers and so on and so on, it's got to be the lightest shade of immoral action you can think of.

Tyrion's murder of Shae is a truly horrific act.  Of course from his mindset it's "deserved" so that's how it's represented in the books, but have some actual reflection!  It was an awful thing to do; Shae was a major victim deserving of great sympathy.  And yet it's her murderer Tyrion who gets all the sympathy from the readership.

I have mixed feelings about this. While I do somewhat agree that maybe readers shouldn't be that upset that she betrayed him because she was paid to do an act and once the money stopped & her life was potentially in danger she chose herself over him. But at the same time I understand it when compared to he other people who stayed loyal to Tyrion despite the risks. Alayaya was taken prisoner & whipped but still never told on Tyrion when she really could've saved herself and she had no relationship with Tyrion & no reason to protect her. Bronn was a sellsword who Tyrion essentially paid to be his friend, but this guy still remained loyal to him. Poderick Payne remained loyal to Tyrion. But the woman who he put up in a mansion, bought jewels & clothes, and did his best to protect didn't. Not saying he was perfect toward Shae, but overall he tried his best to be decent guy toward her.

And I wouldn't describe her as "major victim".she didn't deserve to die, but it was a crime of passion. There are so many other characters who suffer extensively throughout this book that I can't put Shae in the category.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nobody but Tysha and, perhaps, Penny loved Tyrion in a romantic way.

I don't even think Tysha did. She was a homeless 14 year old orphan and he was the infamous, monstrous son of the Ruler of the Westerlands, Tywin Lannister.

The Smallfolk are taught to obey, she would be in no position to say no to him and Tyrion, being only 13 and having little experience of the world would not know the difference between genuine love, gratitude (he and Jaime did save her afterall) or fear (as the consequences of displeasing a Lannister would be known).

GRRM on the class structure of Westeros:

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

 

Tyrion would be at the top and Tysha at the bottom and she would know that.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

She had feelings for his money.

[Lord Varys]

I have mixed feelings about this. While I do somewhat agree that maybe readers shouldn't be that upset that she betrayed him because she was paid to do an act and once the money stopped & her life was potentially in danger she chose herself over him. But at the same time I understand it when compared to he other people who stayed loyal to Tyrion despite the risks. Alayaya was taken prisoner & whipped but still never told on Tyrion when she really could've saved herself and she had no relationship with Tyrion & no reason to protect her. Bronn was a sellsword who Tyrion essentially paid to be his friend, but this guy still remained loyal to him. Poderick Payne remained loyal to Tyrion. But the woman who he put up in a mansion, bought jewels & clothes, and did his best to protect didn't. Not saying he was perfect toward Shae, but overall he tried his best to be decent guy toward her.

 

And I wouldn't describe her as "major victim".she didn't deserve to die, but it was a crime of passion. There are so many other characters who suffer extensively throughout this book that I can't put Shae in the category.

Bronn, Pod, and Alayaya never were considered to be suspects in the poisoning of the king. And Bronn abandoned Tyrion, too, when he had need of him. Or do you remember him fighting the Mountain as his champion?

And with Alayaya it might be as easy as she being sure that nobody would believe her that she didn't have a relationship with Tyrion, and her knowing that she would be whipped/punished whatever she said. It is not as if Cersei or Tywin would actually care about treating her fairly.

I don't even think Tysha did. She was a homeless 14 year old orphan and he was the infamous, monstrous son of the Ruler of the Westerlands, Tywin Lannister.

The Smallfolk are taught to obey, she would be in no position to say no to him and Tyrion, being only 13 and having little experience of the world would not know the difference between genuine love, gratitude (he and Jaime did save her afterall) or fear (as the consequences of displeasing a Lannister would be known).

GRRM on the class structure of Westeros:

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

 

Tyrion would be at the top and Tysha at the bottom and she would know that.

 

Could very well be. But then - did Tysha know who Tyrion was at this time? The way Tyrion remembers everything this seems to be very genuine, and Tysha was only 13-year-old girl, too. Class structures or not, it is very difficult to feign genuine affection for hideously-looking boy, and there is no reason to believe that Tysha feigned anything.

Tyrion would have been very familiar with the way servants and the smallfolk treated him, Jaime, or his father. If Tysha had simply done her duty to the son of Lord Tywin one would expect that her sexual services to Tyrion would have been looked and felt more like the services Dany occasionally gets from Irri.

But the way Tyrion remembers it paints the whole thing as a real romantic fantasy. And I'm really inclined to believe that this was the case. It might not have been undying love, but strange things do happen, and if Tyrion really came of as gallantly and kind, and Tysha was reasonably distraught by the whole experience such a thing would certainly not be impossible.

Any other theory would have to return to the 'Tysha was a whore' concept, at least to a certain degree insofar as she feigned her feelings for Tyrion and the pleasure she apparently got from his company. This whole thing is at the heart of Tyrion's obsession with whores - because he believes Tysha was a whore, and she was the only person who gave him the feeling of genuine love, he continues to search for this kind of things among other whores. It was Tywin who accidentally made Tyrion a whoremonger with his lie.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Could very well be. But then - did Tysha know who Tyrion was at this time? The way Tyrion remembers everything this seems to be very genuine, and Tysha was only 13-year-old girl, too. Class structures or not, it is very difficult to feign genuine affection for hideously-looking boy, and there is no reason to believe that Tysha feigned anything.

Of course she would. Tyrion and Jaime would have stood out, Jaime would either be wearing Kingsguard or Lannister colours and Tyrion would be the most famous dwarf in the Westerlands. There may be other rich dwarfs in the area but only one who the general public would know about.

And Tyrion never implies that he kept his identity a secret, why would she not know who he was?

 

Any other theory would have to return to the 'Tysha was a whore' concept, at least to a certain degree insofar as she feigned her feelings for Tyrion and the pleasure she apparently got from his company.

I really don't think so. Tyrion instantly believing that she was a whore when told and not being able to tell the difference between a person being paid to be gang raped and a person there against their wishes shows that he did not really know her. The fact that she did not plead directly to him shows that she must have thought he was part of it.

Tysha would have both been grateful for being saved and simultaneously scared of the consequences of upsetting him. We can be fairly sure that nothing bad would have happened to her but she would not have been.

Tyrion romanticizes the incident as a 13 year old is likely to do. I very much doubt that Tysha has any fond memories about any of her time with Tyrion and probably thinks that he was toying with her all along.

[Maxxine]

Bronn, Pod, and Alayaya never were considered to be suspects in the poisoning of the king. And Bronn abandoned Tyrion, too, when he had need of him. Or do you remember him fighting the Mountain as his champion?

And with Alayaya it might be as easy as she being sure that nobody would believe her that she didn't have a relationship with Tyrion, and her knowing that she would be whipped/punished whatever she said. It is not as if Cersei or Tywin would actually care about treating her fairly.

Could very well be. But then - did Tysha know who Tyrion was at this time? The way Tyrion remembers everything this seems to be very genuine, and Tysha was only 13-year-old girl, too. Class structures or not, it is very difficult to feign genuine affection for hideously-looking boy, and there is no reason to believe that Tysha feigned anything.

Tyrion would have been very familiar with the way servants and the smallfolk treated him, Jaime, or his father. If Tysha had simply done her duty to the son of Lord Tywin one would expect that her sexual services to Tyrion would have been looked and felt more like the services Dany occasionally gets from Irri.

But the way Tyrion remembers it paints the whole thing as a real romantic fantasy. And I'm really inclined to believe that this was the case. It might not have been undying love, but strange things do happen, and if Tyrion really came of as gallantly and kind, and Tysha was reasonably distraught by the whole experience such a thing would certainly not be impossible.

Any other theory would have to return to the 'Tysha was a whore' concept, at least to a certain degree insofar as she feigned her feelings for Tyrion and the pleasure she apparently got from his company. This whole thing is at the heart of Tyrion's obsession with whores - because he believes Tysha was a whore, and she was the only person who gave him the feeling of genuine love, he continues to search for this kind of things among other whores. It was Tywin who accidentally made Tyrion a whoremonger with his lie.

Bronn not fighting fighting the Mountain is not the same as actively testifying against him as Shae did. Bronn was Tyrion's personal guard & Pod was his squire so if Sansa's maid was interrogated & asked to testify against him I'm sure they were too, but they didn't do it. They were loyal. And yeah as a reader you can say Tywin & Cersei wouldn't care about what Yaya had to say, but as a woman who was kidnapped & whipped you think she wouldn't have tried. Instead she chose to be loyal to Tyrion instead at least try to save herself. Not saying she's right or wrong or that Shae is right or wrong. It's just a possible explanation as to why readers fault Shae so much. So many others remained loyal even at risk to themselves & Shae didn't.

[FuzzyJAM]

snipplets

Good post.  I had always figured there was a great deal of romanticising going on with the Tysha thing, but I hadn't seriously considered the possibility that Tyrion has essentially false memories and the whole thing was only her doing what she was expected to do for a lordling.  I don't know if we have the evidence for it, but it's not impossible.  I certainly doubt she thinks fondly of Tyrion, I'll agree with you there.

 

Bronn not fighting fighting the Mountain is not the same as actively testifying against him as Shae did. Bronn was Tyrion's personal guard & Pod was his squire so if Sansa's maid was interrogated & asked to testify against him I'm sure they were too, but they didn't do it. They were loyal. And yeah as a reader you can say Tywin & Cersei wouldn't care about what Yaya had to say, but as a woman who was kidnapped & whipped you think she wouldn't have tried. Instead she chose to be loyal to Tyrion instead at least try to save herself. Not saying she's right or wrong or that Shae is right or wrong. It's just a possible explanation as to why readers fault Shae so much. So many others remained loyal even at risk to themselves & Shae didn't.

Bronn was a knight.  Pod was a member of a noble house.  They weren't hugely powerful, of course, but it's not the same position at all, as evidenced by neither of them coming to any harm.  

I find the idea that Shae wasn't in fear for her life extremely implausible.  She also has zero reason to look out for her employer who hasn't actually paid her what he promised, has deliberately isolated her for months, and murdered the one person she saw as a friend.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

No. Shae provided the most damning and incriminating testimony at the trial. That testimony was fallacious and seemed both coached and coerced. And then she banged his both rotten and rotting father. She never gave half a shit about Tyrion, only about herself, her place in the world, and what material wealth someone was going to give to her. But, what does one expect from a whore? Should know what you're dealing with and act accordingly.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think she was probably somewhat fond of him, like one becomes fond of clients / service providers you see regularly.  Like a hairdresser/client or Doctor/patient relationship.  

And like those professional relationships things do tend to go sour when the client stops paying and still demands the same service.  She does a reasonable Job of still fulfilling his fantasies even when she's reduced to being a maid most of the time, and has her past wages taken from her.  She's a pretty patient professional, TBH.  

And sure. If a doctor retaliated on their non-paying patient by committing perjury against them that's pretty immoral and certainly illegal.  But given we are talking about a class-stratified society and specifically cersei here, she likely feared for her life.