The Case for Jon & Dany

[Farstrider]

Don't think I've seen a Jon hater before.  I agree that they can't work.  Dany is a person obsessed with her RIGHT, while Jon is a person obsessed with his DUTY. Finding out they're related would mean nothing to him, he wouldn't suddenly care for her as an aunt, he had a family he grew up with.  He won't become a Targaryen in his heart, and she sees his family as traitorous dogs.  They're as opposite as fire and ice.

I too am a Jon hater.  In any case, you are incorrect.  Dany willingly set aside what she wanted and married someone she had no love for to protect the former slaves.  Jon, OTOH, set aside his duties to the Night Watch in order to do what he wanted to help fArya.  Jon compromised the safety of the many, in or to selfishly follow what his heart wanted: Arya.  Dany has the moral upper hand over Jon. 

Ok, back to the o/p's topic.  I suppose Dany and Jon could get romantically involved; however, as the Targaryen Restoration wrote further up, there are other forms of love and it doesn't have to do with romance.  I think Dany's arc is to forever love Khal Drogo as he is the father of her children (Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion).  One to bed, one to dread, and one to love do not all mean husband/boyfriend, rather they mean actual, rideable mounts (I don't mean sexually, rather literally ride like a horse, a dragon, and a unicorn).

[Farstrider]

Didn't Dany choose duty over right/title/whatever when she first married that idiot Hizdahr zo Loraq and actually tried to sacrifice her personal happiness for her people (as her mother Rhaella had done when she married Aerys and gave up all hope to marry/be with Ser Bonifer Hasty)?

While Jon finally showed his true colors and chose love/family over duty when he decided to march against Winterfell in ADwD.

Just saying.

I am very much in agreement with you, My Lord Varys.  Well-written, sir. 

"I have no doubt, the revenge you seek will be yours in time."

[Ser Creighton]

Okay well not that I know much about the subject of Ron and Donny, was that their names? I don't know I think they are characters from the books. But let me see what I can come up with. Everyone knows Martin does parallels, and juxtaposition and uses symbolism and all those wonderful literary devices. So going back to the treatment Martin had a sort of rough draft for a love triangle. It was king of one sided but he wrote. So when they actual books came out we got a love triangle really early. Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert, does not really work out well for any of them and seems to have been one sided but that is okay, that does not change the relationships or feelings of Robert.

Now some fans say that's it, that is the love triangle. Except that it's not, the story is not about Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert, that is the past and as it happens. They are not the only Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert in the series. What you had was a Dragon, a Blue Rose and a Blue eyed Horned lord. Before you saying thing about the horned lord aspect of Robert, it was actually a term used in the books. Being a blue eyed king associated with horns and having blue eyes works rather consistently in this series.

Now later we get another Blue eyed Horned lord named Stannis and he is King and in the North. Now there is no real love triangle with Stannis. But as it happens there is this sort of clash building up and you got Tyrell Roses and another Dragon this one at Storms end. Though this is not really the story either. We all kind of know who the players of the third act are, and this is not them.

Eventually we get to Deanerys, and she herself has been imposed in the role of Rhaegar, even though she is a female it's just a gender role reversal and on more than one occasion the author actually depicts her as Rhaegar.

Jon of Course was given the symbolism of his mother. The blue rose, most except this theory and it ties to Dany's visions.

Now there is probably a real blue eyed King out there known as the Horned lord, and that guy is very powerful. The Night's King, who fills in more than perfectly for Robert. Now what does the story of the Night's King tell us? Why that he lost his soul and he had a bride. We do not see this bride. But the thing is Bride is one of Dany's major themes, Drogo, Hiz, Euron, Daario, Vic, they seek this Queen as their bride. Dany's themes have always been consistent from the first book. Another little theme she has is Crows, a Stormcrow, a Crows eye, even a Blue rose LC of the Night's Watch. Both Jon and the Night's king are Kings, are Crows and are Lord Commanders.

The Others seems to be based off the Vampires from Fevre Dream and we get a lot of hints about that. Not that they are vampires directly but rather Vamperic, they take water from the body. They also take souls it would seem. Or at least in the case of the Night's King, that is what we are told. She took his soul. Much like Azor Ahai his fiery contemporary, they are just a parallel. In the house of the Undying what are we told these undead want? The blue ones, with the cold and the dead and the giant floating heart? They want the fire, the life.

I think the Night's King lost his bride and that is what he wants, he wants his bride, and Dany who has a bride theme would probably be the only one he deemed worthy. The most beautiful woman in the world, the Mother Dragons, the Conqueror, the Queen by her own hand, the Unburnt. She very much fills an inverse parallel of the Night's King, She fire and Freedom, she is life, and beauty, and love. He is a cold, dead, cruel monster, who enslaves all. And of course you have the blue rose, and it is no mistake that Martin used identical symbolism between these three and their predecessors, the question is will they get it right. He wants her she will probably fall for Jon and he will probably get really pissed.

That is where it seems to be headed, he is repeating the past, except this has the magic, and the living legends, and all that fantasy good stuff. Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert were just the warm up, these 3 are the real deal. Who knows maybe Dany falls for Ice Dick, but really did you see him on the show? How is anyone going to kiss that mouth and sell it? Besides Dany and this guy hook up and it's game over for everyone. We have seen this once go the way of the Night's King and Once go the way of Azor. Neither worked really, Jon and Dany have the chance to fix that, to fix the imbalance.

[purple-eyes]

every big war ended up with a political marriage of two sides. 

After dance, Aegon and Jaeheara married. 

After conquering the marsh, Stark and marsh king daughter married. 

After stormland battle, Orys and Argella married. 

After war of roses, Heny and that Elizath? married. 

Same thing with Jon and Dany. 

They will marry, not for love. but for some peace and political union. 

Drogo was set up as true love of Dany. 

And GRRM is a writer who seems like to hold something "one love for whole life". 

[Makk]

I too am a Jon hater.  In any case, you are incorrect.  Dany willingly set aside what she wanted and married someone she had no love for to protect the former slaves.  Jon, OTOH, set aside his duties to the Night Watch in order to do what he wanted to help fArya.  Jon compromised the safety of the many, in or to selfishly follow what his heart wanted: Arya.  Dany has the moral upper hand over Jon. 

Ok, back to the o/p's topic.  I suppose Dany and Jon could get romantically involved; however, as the Targaryen Restoration wrote further up, there are other forms of love and it doesn't have to do with romance.  I think Dany's arc is to forever love Khal Drogo as he is the father of her children (Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion).  One to bed, one to dread, and one to love do not all mean husband/boyfriend, rather they mean actual, rideable mounts (I don't mean sexually, rather literally ride like a horse, a dragon, and a unicorn).

To make a moral judgment on characters you have to balance the events with which you are comparing them. He resisted and resisted, struggling to keep his vows as his (assumed) father is executed and his brother is betrayed and murdered. Arya means a huge amount to Jon and so he feels compelled to act. If Daenarys was in a similar situation do you really think she would not try to save the one she loved no matter the cost?

I personally think Daenerys is quite a vengeful person. When Mirri Maz Duur turned Khal Drogo into a vegetable, Dany had her burned alive in a ritual. After capturing Mereen, she had hundreds of the nobility and their families crucified to match the number of slaves they killed on the road to Mereen. You can argue that this was justified, and I don't blame her character for it, but it is hardly a morally upstanding position. Contrast this with Jon and Janos Slynt, the man who had Jons father executed. Jon knew but was able to swallow his anger and gave him two chances to behave before he cut of his head.

I think Jon and Dany are two of the "better" people in the stories but I hope they don't end up romantically involved and team up to defeat the others. That sort of ending seems a bit too boring to me. I would like Dany and Jon to ultimately go to war with each other and be the next dance of dragons.

[Pancakes1800]

I too am a Jon hater.  In any case, you are incorrect.  Dany willingly set aside what she wanted and married someone she had no love for to protect the former slaves.  Jon, OTOH, set aside his duties to the Night Watch in order to do what he wanted to help fArya.  Jon compromised the safety of the many, in or to selfishly follow what his heart wanted: Arya.  Dany has the moral upper hand over Jon. 

Ok, back to the o/p's topic.  I suppose Dany and Jon could get romantically involved; however, as the Targaryen Restoration wrote further up, there are other forms of love and it doesn't have to do with romance.  I think Dany's arc is to forever love Khal Drogo as he is the father of her children (Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion).  One to bed, one to dread, and one to love do not all mean husband/boyfriend, rather they mean actual, rideable mounts (I don't mean sexually, rather literally ride like a horse, a dragon, and a unicorn).

No.  You saying that Jon's decision at the end of ADWD was 100% about saving fArya and that he didn't even think about anything else shows your lack of understanding about the political situation Jon was in.  Jon had multiple reasons for making that decision, but don't make him out to be a selfish bullheaded idiot when that's not the case.  In fact, Jon made his decision to protect the Night's Watch and it might have worked if Marsh wasn't such an idiot.  Both Jon and Dany are guilty of putting personal feelings ahead of doing the politically correct or the dutiful decision, but their situations and personal feelings are very different and hard to compare.  

 

 

As to the OP, if Jon and Dany have to have a romantic relationship with somebody then I hope it is with each other since I don't see any other realistic good matches for either of them.  Whether it is because they love each other, or because it is a political decision I have no idea.

[khal drogon]

How everyone assume Jon will be perfectly resurrected and go on to marry Dany or become King of Westeros. I believe he will be an undead and Dany deserves better.

[Drogonthedread]

Don't think I've seen a Jon hater before.  I agree that they can't work.  Dany is a person obsessed with her RIGHT, while Jon is a person obsessed with his DUTY. Finding out they're related would mean nothing to him, he wouldn't suddenly care for her as an aunt, he had a family he grew up with.  He won't become a Targaryen in his heart, and she sees his family as traitorous dogs.  They're as opposite as fire and ice.

yeah so much obsessed with right ...every time she thinks like this ....  

"They are not strong .,so I must be their strength .,i must show no fear .,no weakness.,no doubt .however frightened my heart .,when they look upon my face they must see only drogo's queen ..she felt older than her fourteen years ...if she ever been truly a girl .,that time was done "  

 

"Why do gods makes kings and Queen if not for to protect those who can't protect themselves " .

" A queen belongs not to herself but to the realm "  

 " dany closed her eyes .Gods ,she prayed ,you took khal drogo ,who was my sun and stars .you took our valiant son before he drew breath .you have had your blood of me..help me now, i pray for you ,Give me the wisdom to see the path ahead and the strength to do what I must to keep my children safe ..

The gods did not respond .  when she opened her eyes again .deanerys said " I cannot fight two enemies ,one within and one without .if iam to hold meereen ,I must have the city behind me .the whole city .I need .....I need " she could not say it ...  

" YourGrace " ? Set barristan prompted, gently. A queen belongs to her people not to herself .." I need hizdar so loraq"    

" I will not turn away from them ." she said stubbornly." A queen must know the sufferings of her people"  

 " A queen must listen to her people "  

Sometimes I wonder if people even read the chapters ..

 

 

 

  to the op I think they both are perfect for each other ....the amount of time spent on them becoming leaders and rulers is in itself is interesting ....I can see them as jahaerys and good queen alyssane ..

 

  I guess life really is a full circle ....even though there exists lots of trolls against dany and make many vitriol posts about her ...iam starting to see that it's been slowly shifting towards jon now ...I guess what's goes around really comes around 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[khal drogon]

Don't think I've seen a Jon hater before.  I agree that they can't work.  Dany is a person obsessed with her RIGHT, while Jon is a person obsessed with his DUTY. Finding out they're related would mean nothing to him, he wouldn't suddenly care for her as an aunt, he had a family he grew up with.  He won't become a Targaryen in his heart, and she sees his family as traitorous dogs.  They're as opposite as fire and ice.

This is false. Both of these characters are given choices between love,right and duty. Of those Dany is the character who has set aside her love or right for duty more than Jon.

[purple-eyes]

Dany is way better in her duty than Jon Snow. 

Dany had two political marriages but she did them without problem. She got Daario in her bed but she finished their physical relationship for the sake of her marriage. 

What about Jon Snow?

He had sex with his enemy (so he broke his oath). 

He broke his oath again for the sake of Arya and abandoned the wall. 

Surely he deserved death. That is exactly why GRRM let him be killed by brothers. (make him reborn is another thing)

I am sure everybody of the wall had important family, why would he be so special to be allowed to abandon his duty for family?

Isn't it hypocrite that stark killed those who abandoned the wall but their own blood abandoned the wall too?

 

 

[Pod The Rod]

Dany is way better in her duty than Jon Snow. 

Dany had two political marriages but she did them without problem. She got Daario in her bed but she finished their physical relationship for the sake of her marriage. 

What about Jon Snow?

He had sex with his enemy (so he broke his oath). 

He broke his oath again for the sake of Arya and abandoned the wall. 

Surely he deserved death. That is exactly why GRRM let him be killed by brothers. (make him reborn is another thing)

I am sure everybody of the wall had important family, why would he be so special to be allowed to abandon his duty for family?

Isn't it hypocrite that stark killed those who abandoned the wall but their own blood abandoned the wall too?

 

 

Because Ramsey gave him a choice between turning over guests and his own sister (who he didn't have) to the worst monster in Westeros, or watching the Watch be destroyed? 

Neutrality is a two way street. If the Boltons won't respect it and insist on attacking, the Watch is entitled to defend itself.

[purple-eyes]

Because Ramsey gave him a choice between turning over guests and his own sister (who he didn't have) to the worst monster in Westeros, or watching the Watch be destroyed? 

Neutrality is a two way street. If the Boltons won't respect it and insist on attacking, the Watch is entitled to defend itself.

So what, whole House of Hoare went to distinct during the conquering, I did not see his bother (LC of the wall at that time with 10000 army) ran to south to save his family. 

If Jon can use this as an excuse, then everybody can say, oh, I have to go, otherwise the wall will be attacked by XXX, I am doing this for the watch!

Try to do this in any army you will have big trouble. No excuse for running away. discipline is the foundation of army. 

 

 

[Florina Laufeyson]

The thing is, if Jon learns his identity, will he even accept it? Will he want to? Would he just go and be Jon Targaryen? Seems a bit out of his character to me. He grew up a Stark, which was a pretty goddamn well adjusted family, and would he be keen on banging his would-be aunt? Would Dany believe the claim? Theres so many issues with this pairing and this is why people dont like it. Not only that, it feels contrived because theres so little time for them to meet, develop any sort of relationship, and it be believable. 

[Pancakes1800]

So what, whole House of Hoare went to distinct during the conquering, I did not see his bother (LC of the wall at that time with 10000 army) ran to south to save his family. 

If Jon can use this as an excuse, then everybody can say, oh, I have to go, otherwise the wall will be attacked by XXX, I am doing this for the watch!

Try to do this in any army you will have big trouble. No excuse for running away. discipline is the foundation of army. 

 

 

Because Aegon the Conqueror never threaten to kill him if he didn't hand over people that were protected under guest right or people he didn't have.  Jon wasn't using it as an excuse, he had a written letter and read it out loud for everybody to hear.  I'm still amazed people don't understand that what Jon did at the end of ADWD was actually protecting the NW given the situation they were in.  Marsh might have undone everything that Jon did to protect his brothers.   

[Lord Varys]

Because Ramsey gave him a choice between turning over guests and his own sister (who he didn't have) to the worst monster in Westeros, or watching the Watch be destroyed? 

Neutrality is a two way street. If the Boltons won't respect it and insist on attacking, the Watch is entitled to defend itself.

That is not true. Jon Snow harbored a known traitor and pretender at the Wall, even assisted him with counsel and men in his war against the Iron Throne and the lawful Warden of the North, and he sent Mance Rayder in disguise to Winterfell to abduct Ramsay Bolton's legal wife.

Granted, he found himself on a slippery slope but he had many chance to stop himself. He did not. And lets not forget that Ramsay only threaten Jon Snow personally in the Pink Letter, not the Night's Watch as an institution. Sure, he would attack the NW if his demands were not met, but if the black brothers abandoned their treasonous commander no harm would have come to them.

Jon Snow would never have found himself or the NW in that situation if he had not supported Stannis, warned him of the Karstark betrayal, and had sent Mance to Winterfell.

Anyway, Dany fares still much better in the love vs. duty comparison, and this might even continue since Dany seems to accept her destiny right now while we don't really know what's going to happen to Jon.

[purple-eyes]

Because Aegon the Conqueror never threaten to kill him if he didn't hand over people that were protected under guest right or people he didn't have.  Jon wasn't using it as an excuse, he had a written letter and read it out loud for everybody to hear.  I'm still amazed people don't understand that what Jon did at the end of ADWD was actually protecting the NW given the situation they were in.  Marsh might have undone everything that Jon did to protect his brothers.   

That is a personal threatening letter, just a letter. For a military leader, if he acted like that towards all the personal threatening letters he received, then it is very ridiculous. I think most of the presidents or kings or whatever key leaders would receive a lot of threatening letters from their enemies, have you seen them suddenly abandon their duties for a woman? 

Oh, except his father Rhaegar, abandoned his family, his house and his kingdom to have sex with a teenager in a hidden tower. 

No wonder Jon Snow would do same thing. Father's son through and through. 

In fact, why Dany was more dutiful than Jon Snow?

Because her parents are more dutiful than Jon Snow's parents. 

Aerys performed his duty as king (he was mad in the late time, but he still performed his duty as king, in his own mad way, he did not run away from KL with a teenager) and also married the person he had to marry. Same with Rhaella. 

Look at Rhaegar and Lyanna. they selfishly screwed everybody's lives. 

 

[purple-eyes]

and I think this is a foreshadow for the future of dany and Jon. 

Jon is defined as a person who would abandon duty over personal love. (like in the wall)

but dany was defined as a person who would put her duty before her personal desire. (like in the mereen)

In the future, Jon snow will again abandon or betray dany to follow his heart (for Arya).

He will commit treason for love. 

 

[OldGimletEye]

That is a personal threatening letter, just a letter. For a military leader, if he acted like that towards all the personal threatening letters he received, then it is very ridiculous. I think most of the presidents or kings or whatever key leaders would receive a lot of threatening letters from their enemies, have you seen them suddenly abandon their duties for a woman? 

Oh, except his father Rhaegar, abandoned his family, his house and his kingdom to have sex with a teenager in a hidden tower. 

No wonder Jon Snow would do same thing. Father's son through and through. 

In fact, why Dany was more dutiful than Jon Snow?

Because her parents are more dutiful than Jon Snow's parents. 

Aerys performed his duty as king (he was mad in the late time, but he still performed his duty as king, in his own mad way, he did not run away from KL with a teenager) and also married the person he had to marry. Same with Rhaella. 

Look at Rhaegar and Lyanna. they selfishly screwed everybody's lives. 

 

Oh geez here we go again. RR. It was Rhaegars fault. No wait, it was Lyanna's fault. No wait, it was Brandon Starks fault. It was Jon Arryn's fault. It was everyone's fault but poor old Aerys Targaryen.

[purple-eyes]

Oh geez here we go again. RR. It was Rhaegars fault. No wait, it was Lyanna's fault. No wait, it was Brandon Starks fault. It was Jon Arryn's fault. It was everyone's fault but poor old Aerys Targaryen.

Did Barristan said "Aerys was mad and cruel, thousands of people died for it", or did he say "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, thousands of people died for it" ?

[OldGimletEye]

Did Barristan said "Aerys was mad and cruel, thousands of people died for it", or did he say "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, thousands of people died for it" ?

And so what? Is Barristan some renowned Westerosi historian? We all know the facts, Barristan's comments notwithstanding. Aerys was the guy in charge. Yes, lot's of people probably did some unwise things. But, at the end of the day, it was Aerys and Aerys alone who was responsible. The buck stopped with Aerys and Aerys fucked up.