Is Howland Reed one of the greatest warriors in Westeros or the greatest Bullshitter?

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

Nothing about Howland Reed's backstory adds up.

Case #1: HR is present at the Tourney at Harrenhal, where 3 random no-name squires bully him so hard that the She-Wolf Lyanna has to step in. The Knight of the Laughing Tree enters the tournament to protect HR's honor. 

Bullshit.

Case #2: HR is present at the Tower of Joy and helps Ned fight off 3 Kingsguard, a Whent, a Dayne and a Hightower. Somehow, out of the 7 amazing warriors on Ned's side, only Ned and HR survive.

Bullshit. 

Case #3: HR joins Ned during Robert's Rebellion and is a worthwhile ally. HR's involvement during Robert's Rebellion is not explained in much detail, but RR was a bloody rebellion and many warriors that were infinitely more skilled than HR died. Somehow HR survived? Unlikely.

Bullshit.

Case 4: HR just chills at the Neck, while his only 2 children go off North (what sane parent lets their children go off on a suicide mission. If Howland is that type of parent, I doubt Jyana is that kind of parent too.) While Ned is getting beheaded and Robb is getting wedded, HR, who is supposedly an amazing warrior capable of taking on Kingsguard, is just sitting on his ass at Greywater Watch. Unlikely.

Bullshit.

I don't believe anything about HR. IF he's a crannogman, we know he's short and not as physically imposing as most Westerosi knights. We also know that he must be somewhat of a weakling if 3 squires were able to threaten him to the point where Lyanna Stark had to step in. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

56 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

IF he's a crannogman, 

Wut? How his descent is even in question? 

As for the rest, Meera's story, the "He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear", points him to be a magician which by definition would make it powerful. I am thinking about him as the David against Goliath. He may don't had the physical power but he was smart or has magic.

[DigUpHerBones]

If Tyrion survived Blackwater, why is ANYTHING HR did improbable?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

 

Case #1: HR is present at the Tourney at Harrenhal, where 3 random no-name squires bully him so hard that the She-Wolf Lyanna has to step in. The Knight of the Laughing Tree enters the tournament to protect HR's honor. 

Why does this seem like bullshit? 3 are always going to beat 1 and we know how the Crannogmen are looked upon in Westeros so it is very much believable that the young Howland would be picked upon

1 hour ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Case #2: HR is present at the Tower of Joy and helps Ned fight off 3 Kingsguard, a Whent, a Dayne and a Hightower. Somehow, out of the 7 amazing warriors on Ned's side, only Ned and HR survive.

Which means what exactly? Just because Ned and Howland were the last men standing does not mean they were the best.  When it is 7vs 3 then the 7 will always win. Perhaps Reed was less involved in the fight or was more defensive in the fight preventing damage to himself.

Or perhaps he was lucky that the injuries he suffered were not fatal in that fight unlike the 5 Northmen who died. We really don't have enough information to call it bullshit.

1 hour ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

 

Case #3: HR joins Ned during Robert's Rebellion and is a worthwhile ally. HR's involvement during Robert's Rebellion is not explained in much detail, but RR was a bloody rebellion and many warriors that were infinitely more skilled than HR died. Somehow HR survived? Unlikely.

He is a noble, the ruler of the Crannogmen. It is not like he is going to at the forefront of the fighting. There was probably like 30,000 rebels who survived the war, they are not all going to be kick-ass warriors.

1 hour ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Bullshit.

Case 4: HR just chills at the Neck, while his only 2 children go off North (what sane parent lets their children go off on a suicide mission. If Howland is that type of parent, I doubt Jyana is that kind of parent too.) While Ned is getting beheaded and Robb is getting wedded, HR, who is supposedly an amazing warrior capable of taking on Kingsguard, is just sitting on his ass at Greywater Watch. Unlikely.

He is following his ordered as Robb commanded him to hold the Neck.

His children went to the safe Winterfell, it is hardly a suicide mission.

Even if he was a kick ass warrior 15 years ago things change, I imagine Wyman was a slightly better warrior during the Rebllion then he is now.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Wut? How his descent is even in question? 

As for the rest, Meera's story, the "He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear", points him to be a magician which by definition would make it powerful. I am thinking about him as the David against Goliath. He may don't had the physical power but he was smart or has magic.

To be fair, Meera could just being poetic. I'll give you the talk to trees part, but Greywater probably "appears and disappears" because it floats on the foggy swamps. And the part about weaving words sounds to me like he's precisely a good bullshitter or a tall tale talker, which would explain why his kids have such a romanticized idea of him.

In any event, I think his helping Ned against the KG had less to do with magic as it did with Howland banging and possibly getting Arthur Dayne's sister pregnant. 

[The Mountain That Flies]

1 hour ago, DigUpHerBones said:

If Tyrion survived Blackwater, why is ANYTHING HR did improbable?

Seriously. Once you've seen a dwarf headbutt a horse into submission, very few things are outside the realm of possibility.

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Wut? How his descent is even in question? 

As for the rest, Meera's story, the "He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear", points him to be a magician which by definition would make it powerful. I am thinking about him as the David against Goliath. He may don't had the physical power but he was smart or has magic.

 

So he's got the power of the Old Gods and to make castles appear and disappear, but he can't fight off 3 squires?

1 hour ago, DigUpHerBones said:

If Tyrion survived Blackwater, why is ANYTHING HR did improbable?

Somewhat irrelevant.

Tyrion almost died at the Blackwater, so that doesn't actually support your point. 

Tyrion also lost his nose, even though he wasn't in the vanguard for very long. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Tyrion almost died at the Blackwater, so that doesn't actually support your point. 

How do you know that Howland did not also almost die during the rebellion?

5 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Tyrion also lost his nose, even though he wasn't in the vanguard for very long. 

How do you know that Howland was ever in the vanguard?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

So he's got the power of the Old Gods and to make castles appear and disappear, but he can't fight off 3 squires?

That is like saying; Breakspear was a great warrior how Maekar could kill him? Rhaenyra, Aerion, Viserys, Baela, the Queen who never was were blood of the dragon how could they burn?

30 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

To be fair, Meera could just being poetic. I'll give you the talk to trees part, but Greywater probably "appears and disappears" because it floats on the foggy swamps. And the part about weaving words sounds to me like he's precisely a good bullshitter or a tall tale talker, which would explain why his kids have such a romanticized idea of him.

In any event, I think his helping Ned against the KG had less to do with magic as it did with Howland banging and possibly getting Arthur Dayne's sister pregnant. 

Howland wouldn't had to face 1 to 1 battle. Like what Meera said in Histories and Lore "may find that a well-placed dart can be as deadly as any blade".

 

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why does this seem like bullshit? 3 are always going to beat 1 and we know how the Crannogmen are looked upon in Westeros so it is very much believable that the young Howland would be picked upon

Strawman argument.

HR was picked on because he was small and weak. Nowhere did I state that it is hard to believe that HR would be picked on.

3 v 1 does not always end in victory for the 3. You're going to have to provide evidence from the books that show that if 1 knight is fighting against 3, that knight will always lose.

 There are many instances in both the books and show where a single person is fighting against multiple combatants and they still win/don't lose their lives.

Stannis, Brienne, Ned, Bronn and Jaime all fight against 3 or more knights and still walked away from the fight with their lives intact. 

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Which means what exactly? Just because Ned and Howland were the last men standing does not mean they were the best.  When it is 7vs 3 then the 7 will always win. Perhaps Reed was less involved in the fight or was more defensive in the fight preventing damage to himself.

If Reed was hiding the entire fight, why was he even there besides wasting oxygen? 

Either he's such a lame fighter that he can't take on 3 squires (not knights, SQUIRES) or he's worthwhile enough to bring to the Tower of Joy. You can't have it both ways. 

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Or perhaps he was lucky that the injuries he suffered were not fatal in that fight unlike the 5 Northmen who died. We really don't have enough information to call it bullshit.

He is a noble, the ruler of the Crannogmen. It is not like he is going to at the forefront of the fighting. There was probably like 30,000 rebels who survived the war, they are not all going to be kick-ass warriors.

Why not? By this point, Rickard and Brandon Stark were dead and Ned was at the forefront of Robert's Rebellion. 

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He is following his ordered as Robb commanded him to hold the Neck.

What are you talking about? HR was already at The Neck, he didn't need to "hold it" on behalf of Robb, who never once managed to get in contact with Reed directly.

Robb couldn't even deliver his will to HR with the help of Maege and Glover, how would he command HR?

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

His children went to the safe Winterfell, it is hardly a suicide mission.

Winterfell was safe? Have we been reading the same books?

In Book 1, Bran gets tossed out of a window and then an assassin is hired to finish the job immediately after.

Then the Ironborn overtake it. Shortly thereafter the Red Wedding happens and the north goes into chaos. Then the Boltons burn Winterfell down and occupy it. At what point was Winterfell safe? At what point was Winterfell safer than just keeping your 2 children hidden in the swamps of the most difficult-to-find holdfast in Westeros?  

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Even if he was a kick ass warrior 15 years ago things change, I imagine Wyman was a slightly better warrior during the Rebllion then he is now.

 

I'm saying that HR 15 years ago was a bullshitter. If he was an inexperienced warrior then, I imagine he's even worse now. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

 

HR was picked on because he was small and weak. Nowhere did I state that it is hard to believe that HR would be picked on.

He was also picked on because he was a Crannogmen and one of the squires was from the Twins.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

3 v 1 does not always end in victory for the 3. You're going to have to provide evidence from the books that show that if 1 knight is fighting against 3, that knight will always lose.

Why from the books? In most scenarios where it is 3 against 1 the three will win. This is just common sense.

And were did you get 'always' from? There will be exceptions to the rule, but on average three people will beat 1 person in a fight.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

 There are many instances in both the books and show where a single person is fighting against multiple combatants and they still win/don't lose their lives.

Many? Name them then.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Stannis, Brienne, Ned, Bronn and Jaime all fight against 3 or more knights and still walked away from the fight with their lives intact.

When did Stannis?

When did Ned?

When did Bronn?

Jaime and Brienne are both exceptional fighters, I can see them occasionally beating those odds.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

If Reed was hiding the entire fight, why was he even there besides wasting oxygen? 

eh? Who mentioned hiding?

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Either he's such a lame fighter that he can't take on 3 squires (not knights, SQUIRES) or he's worthwhile enough to bring to the Tower of Joy. You can't have it both ways. 

Many squires are grown men, men who are just as capable of winning a fist fight but can not afford the great cost of becoming a knight.

And we have no idea what Ned expected from the Tower of Joy. It is clear he thought the Kingsguard would follow in Barristan's example and not fight to the death.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Why not? By this point, Rickard and Brandon Stark were dead and Ned was at the forefront of Robert's Rebellion. 

Being the commander does not mean you are leading the vanguard. Many commanders see very little fighting.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

What are you talking about? HR was already at The Neck, he didn't need to "hold it" on behalf of Robb, who never once managed to get in contact with Reed directly.

Robb ordered him to defend the Neck

"If he comes so far, but no one thinks he will," Robb said. "I've sent word to Howland Reed, Father's old friend at Greywater Watch. If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Robb couldn't even deliver his will to HR with the help of Maege and Glover, how would he command HR?

I'm sorry, can you clarify what you mean here?

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Winterfell was safe? Have we been reading the same books?

When his children were sent there? Yes, it was thought to be safe. Theon was still thought to be on Robb's side, the Boltons still thought of as loyal.

At the time Reed's children left for Winterfell it was thought of as safe. By all means show the evidence disproving this.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

In Book 1, Bran gets tossed out of a window and then an assassin is hired to finish the job immediately after.

How does that make Winterfell any less safe. Those things can happen anywhere? Even in the Neck.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Then the Ironborn overtake it. Shortly thereafter the Red Wedding happens and the north goes into chaos. Then the Boltons burn Winterfell down and occupy it. At what point was Winterfell safe?

How was Howland supposed to know any of these events would happen?

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

 

At what point was Winterfell safer than just keeping your 2 children hidden in the swamps of the most difficult-to-find holdfast in Westeros?  

lol

Now who is using a straw man argument. At no point did I say Wintefell was safer for his his children than any other place in existence.

I said it was thought of safe, which at the time it was.

3 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

I'm saying that HR 15 years ago was a bullshitter. If he was an inexperienced warrior then, I imagine he's even worse now. 

How is he a bullshitter? At what point has Howland Reed ever bragged about how good or bad of a warrior he is?

[Light a wight tonight]

The title dooms the post. We never see Howland Reed in person and he never makes any claims, so there's no indication that he's a bullshitter. 

All we know is that Ned says that Howland saved his life. This doesn't mean that Howland defeated Arthur Dayne in single combat nor even that Howland was a great warrior. I mean, we even see skinny, 12 year old Podrick Payne kill Mandon Moore, one of the better fighters among the King's Guard. 

[TheHodorThatWasPromised]

8 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

The title dooms the post. We never see Howland Reed in person and he never makes any claims, so there's no indication that he's a bullshitter. 

All we know is that Ned says that Howland saved his life. This doesn't mean that Howland defeated Arthur Dayne in single combat nor even that Howland was a great warrior. I mean, we even see skinny, 12 year old Podrick Payne kill Mandon Moore, one of the better fighters among the King's Guard. 

Yeah, if Howland Reed is a bullshitter then Ned is a bullshitter too !

It is rather weird that you could call someone a bullshitter, when he have in fact not made a single claim in person during the entire story. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Maybe HR has some Clarke Kent/Superman thing going on... (OK, I don't even believe that one myself...)

GRRM is a great fan of the underdog.  His top PoV characters are a cripple, a dwarf, a bastard, a little girl and an abused teenage girl who is traded off by her last relative like a slave.  Despite all their shortcomings, look at the power they all have (or had) ... Bran has become a powerful warg and greenseer and may be key in saving the world. Tyrion has survived against all odds again and again and even saved Kingslanding from Stannis.  Jon Snow became one of the youngest ever Lord a Commanders of the NW and has fought off wights and wildlings. Arya (a ten year old, small for her age) has also survived very dangerous situations and is now a lethal assassin.  Danaerys had a stillbirth, survived a funeral pyre, hatched 3 dragons, beat the warlocks of Qarth and smashed the slave trade in slavers bay!! 

Varys and Littlefinger have no physical prowess either and survived the rebellion as well as many other tricky situations.

Clearly, brute strength and shiny swords are not the only way to survive in this world.  We have been shown this time and time again.  What HR lacks in size and strength, he must make up for in other ways.  

Getting roughed up once by 3 squires doesn't prove anything about his abilities.  You're right, it doesn't ring true with what we've been told about the skill, stealth and cunning of the crannogman and HR's key role later.  Maybe if KOTLT hadn't stepped in, he would have found another way out.  Maybe he wanted to appear a lot less dangerous than he really was to the people who were there.

When Ned says that Arthur Dayne would have killed him but for HR, I feel like this was a verbal intervention rather than a physical one though.  I really hope we find out!

[standing_on_the_]

HR believes in jojens dreams and knows that he must help Bran.

[SevasTra82]

Personally, I think HR got injured during the TOJ incident to the point where he has trouble leaving The Neck (or can't leave at all).  Maybe he lost a leg?  Or he has a limp now?  Or something else?  It's possible...and could be one of the reasons he's not made many appearances since the TOJ.

As for the TOJ incident itself...I always pictured HR fighting as any Crannogman would fight...a sniper with a bow and arrow, defensively.  I don't picture him fighting a melee type of fight.  Ned did say that HR save his life at the end....I picture Ned on the ground and Arthur Dayne standing over him about to put down the final blow, and then HR (who is possibly injured by this point and/or thought to be dead), puts an arrow through Daynes neck at the last moment, saving Ned's life.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

WTF?

What is your definition of "bullshitter"? Because to this day I've thought that was someone (in)famous for saying (or communicating in any other way) things that aren't completely factually accurate. Howland Reed rarely ever said anything, period, let alone bullshit.

Give us an example of HR actually saying something that wasn't true, and maybe we can discuss your case. So far, you have no case to discuss.

[Ashur]

If the Jyana=Ashara theory is true, HR could have helped Ned simply putting himself in the middle of the two. If HR was Ashara's husband, Arthur won't hurt his brother-in-law. Likely It would be possible in those moments of doubt for Ned to recover and finally cut down Arthur Dayne.

[Hangover of the Morning]

23 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

Personally, I think HR got injured during the TOJ incident to the point where he has trouble leaving The Neck (or can't leave at all).  Maybe he lost a leg?  Or he has a limp now?  Or something else?  It's possible...and could be one of the reasons he's not made many appearances since the TOJ.

As for the TOJ incident itself...I always pictured HR fighting as any Crannogman would fight...a sniper with a bow and arrow, defensively.  I don't picture him fighting a melee type of fight.  Ned did say that HR save his life at the end....I picture Ned on the ground and Arthur Dayne standing over him about to put down the final blow, and then HR (who is possibly injured by this point and/or thought to be dead), puts an arrow through Daynes neck at the last moment, saving Ned's life.

I totally agree with your points and the way you describe the ToJ fight. Arrow in the neck or stab in the back are the most likely scenarios. 

That said my favourite "theory" regarding the ToJ fight is that the gravely (possibly fatally) injured Arthur was still able to overpower Ned and as he had him at sword point and was ready to strike the final blow, Howland spoke up and said something that made Arthur stop his hand. That in itself could have been enough for Ned & Howland to kill him but I think it's more likely that Arthur decided to lay down his sword because as Howland pointed out Arthur was likely to die anyway and if Ned's killed, there's nobody to protect the baby. Ned would either let Arthur bleed to death or more likely was forced to finish him off with a mercy kill. It would explain why Arthur has a sad smile in Ned's dreams and why Ned has such high opinion of Arthur and why he feels so sad, ashamed and uneasy when people praise him for killing the Sword of the Morning. 

 

[tallTale]

We have no idea as to how great a warrior/fighter HR is until we know what happens at the TOJ. 

He may have used some crafty tricks with nets/poisoned darts, or perhaps they didn't fight at all. Conveniently and purposely nothing is known past the initial confrontation. 

We know Meera isn't a great warrior. a great hunter but not fighter. Basically the only thing we know for sure is that the Reeds are not genetically gifted fighters.