Origin of the Seven

[John Suburbs]

This has probably been pointed out before, but it struck me like a rock on a recent reread: the Faith of the Seven obviously comes from the seven dominant colors in the visible light spectrum: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. It's why they use crystal prisms in all of their high ceremonies, whether it's a wedding, a funeral or a trial. Not having a real grasp on light waves or particle physics, it would be like magic to them: turning white light (the one) into seven different aspects.

I can't begin to guess which color is which aspect, though, other than indigo is probably the stranger, red the warrior and maybe violet is the crone.

Sorry if this was already obvious to everyone. I just never made the connection before.

 

 

 

 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

The Stranger might be violet, since that's the end of the spectrum. I agree on red for the Warrior.

[hiemal]

I think the Stranger, who comes from far places, would be indigo the color of deep space. Not to mention the fact that the visible spectrum more or less actually contains 6 colors, with indigo being shoe-horned in to make the "magic" number seven.

I suspect violet is the Maiden, via Amethysts.

Red rubies would be the Warrior.t.

Green would be my guess for the Father (Garth greenhands), yellow for the Mother, blue for the Crone, and orange for the Smith (flames from his forge?).

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Warms my heart that you guys are connecting indigo to the Stranger. :-)

I have noodled over this--seven rainbow colors, seven aspects, but not super recently. As it happens I tend to think the Seven aspects actually correlate to the main players of the first Long Night. The rainbow bit may have simply been an historical mnemonic until the Andals turned it into a religion.

And I also think that the Great Empire of the Dawn had evolved types of magic that correlated with colors. Which could be how human figures were matched with rainbow colors in the first place.

So, IMO...

Red - The Smith, Azor Ahai (also associate with the star the Red Wanderer)

Orange - The Mother (by process of elimination, I don't really have much for this), Amethyst Empress in her second life.

Yellow - The Crone (the star known as the Crone's Lantern is yellow surrounded by a nimbus; this is from a Davos chapter), Nissa Nissa (mostly because NN is associated with a lion, lion > cat's eyes > yellow; also lighting up a magic sword in the Long Night seems conceptually similar to carrying a lamp to show the way)

Green - The Father, Garth Greenhand (b/c of his massive fertility; I don't think he's the father of all the other characters)

Blue - The Warrior, Sapphire Knight (this is a hypothetical character I'm going to post more fully about when the post is ready; roughly based on Symeon Star Eyes), star may be the eye of the Ice Dragon/it's rider.

Indigo - The Stranger, dark aspect of the Sapphire Knight

Violet - The Maid, Amethyst Empress

 

 

ETA: Orange is most often used to describe fire. It's mentioned four times during Drogo's funeral pyre, when Dany becomes Mother of Dragons and is in a sense reborn. So I think orange as the color of AE reborn as a Mother figure makes at least some sense thematically.

[hiemal]

21 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Warms my heart that you guys are connecting indigo to the Stranger. :-)

I have noodled over this--seven rainbow colors, seven aspects, but not super recently. As it happens I tend to think the Seven aspects actually correlate to the main players of the first Long Night. The rainbow bit may have simply been an historical mnemonic until the Andals turned it into a religion.

And I also think that the Great Empire of the Dawn had evolved types of magic that correlated with colors. Which could be how human figures were matched with rainbow colors in the first place.

So, IMO...

Red - The Smith, Azor Ahai (also associate with the star the Red Wanderer)

Orange - The Mother (by process of elimination, I don't really have much for this), Amethyst Empress in her second life.

Yellow - The Crone (the star known as the Crone's Lantern is yellow surrounded by a nimbus; this is from a Davos chapter), Nissa Nissa (mostly because NN is associated with a lion, lion > cat's eyes > yellow; also lighting up a magic sword in the Long Night seems conceptually similar to carrying a lamp to show the way)

Green - The Father, Garth Greenhand (b/c of his massive fertility; I don't think he's the father of all the other characters)

Blue - The Warrior, Sapphire Knight (this is a hypothetical character I'm going to post more fully about when the post is ready; roughly based on Symeon Star Eyes), star may be the eye of the Ice Dragon/it's rider.

Indigo - The Stranger, dark aspect of the Sapphire Knight

Violet - The Maid, Amethyst Empress

 

 

ETA: Orange is most often used to describe fire. It's mentioned four times during Drogo's funeral pyre, when Dany becomes Mother of Dragons and is in a sense reborn. So I think orange as the color of AE reborn as a Mother figure makes at least some sense thematically.

I was going to suggest switching red and blue after giving it some thought and remembering that Snow and Ygritte discuss the Smith (The Thief) being red like Mars but you have beaten me to it and with a different argument! I had started a thread before the reboot trying to link the Seven to the Wanderers and I don't know how it slipped my mind.

 

[Lordsteve666]

This would make sense actually as doesn't the High Septon (before he get killed) wear a crown with a crystal in it that would act like a prism?

I think the Seven are essentially different faces of one "god", each one being a different "face" on that god. So essentially what we have is the Westerosi equivalent of the Many Faced God, in fact they could even be the same thing. Or the Faceless Men are right in that every god is one and the same, doesn't mater which culture you go to.

[HexMachina]

11 hours ago, Lordsteve666 said:

This would make sense actually as doesn't the High Septon (before he get killed) wear a crown with a crystal in it that would act like a prism?

I think the Seven are essentially different faces of one "god", each one being a different "face" on that god. So essentially what we have is the Westerosi equivalent of the Many Faced God, in fact they could even be the same thing. Or the Faceless Men are right in that every god is one and the same, doesn't mater which culture you go to.

This is more or less how Cat explains it, with the common folk believing a simplified version wherein the 7 are 7 distinct beings, rather than 7 aspects of the same being. 

The rainbow motif of the 7 is also the reason for Renly's Rainbow Guard, iirc (rather than a nod to LGBTQ+ as some believed; at least, I think I recall GRRM saying this anyway

[Lord Asher Forrester]

Sorry mate, it is interesting to see the relation u did with the seven and the prisms, they really are alike (seven in one), but that does not explain the " Origin of the Seven " as promissed in the title, we already knew that the fate used this symbolism. It is also cool to relate the colors to the gods and other characters, but it too does not help us to know from where came the idea of these seven archetypal gods. Or are you trying to say the gods are based on the colors somehow? 

Well even if the topic name is not the real thing it is a good topic anyways, so keep it up fellow.

[Sheepish]

I think the Maid is blue... because of Brienne the Blue, the Maid of Tarth's oft-referenced big, innocent blue eyes.

[Jak Scaletongue]

8 hours ago, Sheepish said:

I think the Maid is blue... because of Brienne the Blue, the Maid of Tarth's oft-referenced big, innocent blue eyes.

Blue as the Warrior also works with Brienne too, though.  She's very much a warrior, and is the best example of a "true knight" as well.  She may be a maid on a technicality, but she's a warrior first and foremost.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

12 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Blue as the Warrior also works with Brienne too, though.  She's very much a warrior, and is the best example of a "true knight" as well.  She may be a maid on a technicality, but she's a warrior first and foremost.

 

Exactly.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 7:09 AM, Lord Asher said:

Sorry mate, it is interesting to see the relation u did with the seven and the prisms, they really are alike (seven in one), but that does not explain the " Origin of the Seven " as promissed in the title, we already knew that the fate used this symbolism. It is also cool to relate the colors to the gods and other characters, but it too does not help us to know from where came the idea of these seven archetypal gods. Or are you trying to say the gods are based on the colors somehow? 

Well even if the topic name is not the real thing it is a good topic anyways, so keep it up fellow.

I'm saying the germ of the idea came from the way light is refracted through a prism: seven individual colors that can be magically unified to form a single, over-arching color. After that, it was simply a matter of assigning each color to a god that would oversee one of the crucial aspects of life under the new order: order, compassion, courage, industry, chastity, wisdom and the mystery of death.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 26/02/2016 at 6:19 PM, John Suburbs said:

I'm saying the germ of the idea came from the way light is refracted through a prism: seven individual colors that can be magically unified to form a single, over-arching color. After that, it was simply a matter of assigning each color to a god that would oversee one of the crucial aspects of life under the new order: order, compassion, courage, industry, chastity, wisdom and the mystery of death.

Oh, i get it now, that is very intelligent in fact, of GRRM for having the idea, and of you for getting a deeper understanding than most readers, cheers man.

[Scorpion92]

I believe what Andals saw as a vision of Seven is a future government of post-apocalyptic Planetos, when "spring" comes to Westeros and Essos, and some of our POVs will be part of this council.

The original small council of Iron Throne IS consisted of seven people: King, Hand, Master of Whisperers, Master of Coin, Master of Laws, Master of Ships and Grandmaester.

I think the new government of Westeros will be formed in a new capital on Harrenhal grounds (King's Landing will burn thanks to Cersei's wildfire plot). The title names might change since it is a new era, a new political system and probably a new demographics (thanks to Daenerys and thousands and thousands Essosi followers and immigrants).

I believe after the Long Night Westeros will be utterly devastated and ruined (as will Essos), but in order to recover from all this, you need a strong leadership with men capable of doing their job according to their titles. In my opinion, Andals got these visions of this so called future small council, and the descriptions they gave us regarding each individual member of Seven might point us into the direction on which POVs will be on this council.

Anyways, my gut feeling is that:

Father - King - because in order for the realm to recover and stay strong, it needs the hard and strong, but just leader, who will treat every problem in his dominion like a true king should - fair. If king is fair and just, then realm is in good hands.

Stranger - Master of Whisperers - also for the realm to stay strong and grow, it needs intelligence agency which will find and eliminate the enemies of the state. The strongest countries and states have the strongest intelligence agency, that is a fact. 

Grandmaester - Crone - This is a natural match because both represent wisdom and guidance, and no one is wiser than a maester or a scientist. Even though I believe Citadel and Oldtown will fall in the next books, I think a new order of maesters will be formed at a new capital, who will research science and magic and record the true history of the events.

Master of Coin - Smith - Smith represents the constructive ways of life, he is "a working man", and every working man works on his craft, gets paid, pays taxes to the states, state uses these taxes to pay for social contract in keeping its people safe and happy,and the cycle goes on and on. Master of Coin controls the realm's money, which means he controls the economy and taxes. The better master of coin does his job and keeps the state's finances in check, the better the economy and the realm is.

Master of Law - Warrior - Warrior represents the destructive ways of life and represents a "soldier", a man carrying a sword. I think Master of Law is the only suitable choice for this, because he is responsible in installing king's law and order across the realm. He is basically the "police", and if needed do not hesitate to use his sword. I think whoever is installed at this position needs to be very similar in his sense of justice and honor like the king, and also be very talented in military matters, so he needs to be a very capable battle commander.

Going with my logic and people I expect for each individual position, I believe that Jon will be Father/King, Arya - Stranger/Mistress of Whisperers, and Samwell - Crone/Grandmaester.

For the two others, it is kinda tricky, but in my mind there is a reason why Tyrion was named so briefly Master of Coin. Tyrion was Hand of Joffrey, then Master of Coin, then presumably he will be Dany's Hand when she invades Westeros. I think on Jon's council he will return to being Master of Coin and manage the crown's money. Given his background as a Lannister, the wealthiest family of Seven Kingdoms, and how Lannisters are famous for paying their debts, I think he will be just fine in his new position.

Plus, managing finances of the whole realm IS a very hard job and requires a very smart and cunning man for everything to run smooth, and usually people holding this position are despised and distrusted (see Littlefinger) and in my mind Tyrion fits the bill perfectly. Considering the state of Westeros at the end of the books, there will be a huge need for a very clever man who can employ maybe some new financial policies and help to jumpstart the economy and rebuild the realm's infrastructure.

Plus,I feel there HAS to be one Lannister on predominantly Stark small council, and THIS Lannister actually needs to have quite a positive history with remaining Starks (Jon, Sansa and Bran, and who knows, maybe Arya will warm up to the Imp when she meets him).

And for Master of Law position and reincarnation of Warrior I could only see Gendry filling this void. Like with Tyrion and Lannisters, there HAS to be one member of Baratheon blood on this council (whether he will have Baratheon last name or not does not matter), and I see only Gendry surviving till the end.

Also, like stated above, Master of Law needs to bring king's order and law across the realm and be very similar in fundamental principles of justice to his king in order to carry out his duty well. Well, Gendry is very much alike to Jon, both are from bastard background and both treat people on the base of their merit, not surname. Plus, Gendry's upbringing among smallfolk is a big advantage in my books for him to carry king's law effectively, because people will trust him and view him as their voice on Jon's small council.

As for his talents as a soldier and warrior, it is totally speculative, but I believe that Gendry will embody the best traits of three Baratheon brothers: Robert's genes and talents as a bone crushing, hammer wielding warrior; Stannis' cold, pragmatic and calculating mind for military strategy and stubbornness to retreat; and charisma of Renly which will make Gendry very popular and beloved with his soldiers and men following him. Again, totally speculative, but I expect big things from the kid. 

You might argue that Gendry is fit to be Smith per Seven, as he IS the smith in real life, but I will argue that you re-read on what Smith REALLY represents, it is someone who needs to repair the damage done after the Long Night, and this is precisely why Master of Coin/Finance is Smith representation.

Now, this leaves us with Mother and Maiden and how to match them with Master of Ships and Hand of the King responsibilities.

I think Maiden will be compatible with Hand of the King/Chancellor, because I see these two entities embodied in Sansa. She is Maiden in this story, there is no denying that, and there are tons of threads on this forum proving that. But Sansa also is learning the art of manipulation and diplomacy thanks to Littlefinger, plus she has a lot of Queen references in her storyline. Hand of the King or Chancellor is second most important figure in the realm after King, the job includes managing the realm and council and court on everyday basis, and I think Sansa will be more than capable to do just that with her new skills as diplomat and manipulator.

Which leaves us with Mother and Master of Ships. The only character who fits this bill is Davos Seaworth. Davos has a lot of Mother principles in him with this story: he is Stannis' "angel" to Melisandre's "devil". He is very compassionate and even defies Stannis while helping Edric Storm escape, which proves my point about his merciful ways. I think he will be Jon's voice of reason and stabilizing factor whenever Jon wants to do something radical and harsh. Given his personality and his skills of a smuggler, I think Davos will end up as Jon's Admiral/Master of Ships.

So there you go, I think the vision of Faith of the Seven Andals saw all these years ago are the visions of Jon, Sansa, Arya, Sam, Davos, Tyrion and Gendry as parts of a new small council. 

Of course this is all speculation and crackpot, but this is fun as well. I mean, these seven are the only candidates that can fit the descriptions of each facet of the Seven as well as fill the council positions based on their skills or the skills they are training on.

[Lady Barbrey]

Make of this what you will but according to the work I did on the god emperors, certain families or personages correspond to the light spectrum. They would be

Red - Targaryan (including Bloodraven and surprisingly Tyrion)

Orange - Martell

Yellow - Illyrio and his camp, possibly the Golden Company

Green - Lannister

Blue - Greyjoy

Indigo - Baratheon

Violet - Dayne (or proto-Daynes)

 

Outside that spectrum we have

White is Varys

Gray is Stark

Black I don't know., it's never mentioned

[Jak Scaletongue]

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Make of this what you will but according to the work I did on the god emperors, certain families or personages correspond to the light spectrum. They would be

Red - Targaryan (including Bloodraven and surprisingly Tyrion)

Orange - Martell

Yellow - Illyrio and his camp, possibly the Golden Company

Green - Lannister

Blue - Greyjoy

Indigo - Baratheon

Violet - Dayne (or proto-Daynes)

 

Outside that spectrum we have

White is Varys

Gray is Stark

Black I don't know., it's never mentioned

Wouldn't black be the NW?  And white the KG?

Do you have any of the work you did on the god-emperor's up anywhere?  I love the World Book stuff!  I'd be very interested in reading it.

[Lady Barbrey]

5 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Wouldn't black be the NW?  And white the KG?

Do you have any of the work you did on the god-emperor's up anywhere?  I love the World Book stuff!  I'd be very interested in reading it.

Yes, but it starts out really tentatively with a post called God Emperors of Westeros on this Woiaf forum. Even now, I have some questions. As I read on, using the list as a key, more and more started to become clear so read the whole thread. I've never posted my final conclusions and certainties. I was rather hoping more people might be on board with looking at the analysis and going from there as I don't have the exhaustive memory of details that many of you do. It was hard work!  And I swore off the forum shortly thereafter because it was becoming an addiction. Just ducking in now to participate in a few convos that interest me. 

I just checked that thread and it looks like my further conclusions disappeared halfway through. Ive just come back to this forum after many months away - did we lose a lot of posts, do you know?

[Jak Scaletongue]

I know threads went missing with the update, but I don't know about posts.  There might have been some that didn't carry over, I guess.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

On 2/18/2016 at 4:04 PM, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

I know threads went missing with the update, but I don't know about posts.  There might have been some that didn't carry over, I guess.

 

 

I lost two posts and their associated threads.

[Lord Varys]

While it is clear that the spectrum symbolizes the Seven I'm pretty sure nobody cooked up the gods to fit the spectrum. They would have chosen that as a symbol. The Faith is a polytheistic religion at heart, only interpreting itself as monotheism among the progressive/learned branch. But the light perfectly embodies that interpretation - the white light is the deity and the colored light symbolizes all its aspects.

One wonders whether the original Seven were originally individual polytheistic gods with names of their own rather than just functional names like the Father, the Mother, etc. only developing into such figures over time (perhaps even before the Andals moved to Westeros). It is easily imaginable that the Father and the Mother were Zeus- and Hera-like father/mother gods who are the parents of the Maiden (an Aphrodite- or Artemis-like goddess), the Warrior (Ares), and the Smith (Hephaestus). The Crone could be a goddess from a previous generation (like Zeus' grandmother Gaia), and the Stranger being a dangerous deity from 'outside', or something like that.

In that sense the original Seven could actually have been some mortal/half-mortal heroic people from ancient past living on the Axe comparable to the heroes from the Dawn Age or the Age of Heroes which were then later deified and worshiped by the Andals.