Parts of the Series You Have Trouble Taking Seriously

[Little Lark]

On April 24, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Miss CS said:

I don't think they're capable of forming stable nuclear families. When female promiscuity increases in any culture - even prior to marriage - the ability to pair-bond diminishes, divorce rates sky-rocket, and families break down. Kids end up being raised by a single parent - usually the mother. Statistically, most marriages involving highly promiscuous women don't last long enough to bring any children to maturity (and the youngest child is usually a toddler when the divorce occurs). By comparison, marriages involving virgin brides usually last a life-time. These are human statistics and occur across all cultures (and they are only averages, too, and there are exceptions).

I suppose if the children are communally raised then you might solve the problem. I don't think that element is there, however. Martin isn't world-building using sociobiology. It's also difficult to believe it could be done effective enough to solve the problem of high young male syndrome and associated crime increases by a society that isn't smart enough to understand precisely what the problem is. I mean, even in modern society there is huge objection to ideas such as this - that increased male presence is necessary to a child's life, despite being proved by science and statistics. In the Summer Isles, it's certainly going to be the case of a lot of women living alone in their own household with their children after their husband has left, and they just wouldn't know where to begin in solving the problem, "why is my twelve year old son stealing shit at the market?! Why did my fifteen year old son run away to be a raping marauding pirate on the high seas? Why is my thirteen year old daughter preggers?!" … er, 'cause ye sent her to the brothel-temple, duh. Oh, gods, that's just appalling, actually.

My only point is it's just a jumble of unrealistic fantastic human societies that could never happen. This wouldn't be so bad… until you realize the impact A Song of Ice and Fire can have on people… some of the reviews I've read! Damn. People do describe the Summer Isles as a Utopia, all the while divorce rates are rising in our own world and kids are in trouble. I'm not saying it's Martin's fault or anything for writing unrealistic fantasy. I'm just reflecting that people are totally lost.

I'll have to do a little reading and feet back to you on some of this. If you have any articles/journals you could link that's be great! 

In reference to your last comments, I really hope people aren't taking life lessons from a series of fantasy books wherein it's ok to marry thirteen year olds. 

[Little Lark]

On April 24, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Miss CS said:

I don't think they're capable of forming stable nuclear families. When female promiscuity increases in any culture - even prior to marriage - the ability to pair-bond diminishes, divorce rates sky-rocket, and families break down. Kids end up being raised by a single parent - usually the mother. Statistically, most marriages involving highly promiscuous women don't last long enough to bring any children to maturity (and the youngest child is usually a toddler when the divorce occurs). By comparison, marriages involving virgin brides usually last a life-time. These are human statistics and occur across all cultures (and they are only averages, too, and there are exceptions).

I suppose if the children are communally raised then you might solve the problem. I don't think that element is there, however. Martin isn't world-building using sociobiology. It's also difficult to believe it could be done effective enough to solve the problem of high young male syndrome and associated crime increases by a society that isn't smart enough to understand precisely what the problem is. I mean, even in modern society there is huge objection to ideas such as this - that increased male presence is necessary to a child's life, despite being proved by science and statistics. In the Summer Isles, it's certainly going to be the case of a lot of women living alone in their own household with their children after their husband has left, and they just wouldn't know where to begin in solving the problem, "why is my twelve year old son stealing shit at the market?! Why did my fifteen year old son run away to be a raping marauding pirate on the high seas? Why is my thirteen year old daughter preggers?!" … er, 'cause ye sent her to the brothel-temple, duh. Oh, gods, that's just appalling, actually.

My only point is it's just a jumble of unrealistic fantastic human societies that could never happen. This wouldn't be so bad… until you realize the impact A Song of Ice and Fire can have on people… some of the reviews I've read! Damn. People do describe the Summer Isles as a Utopia, all the while divorce rates are rising in our own world and kids are in trouble. I'm not saying it's Martin's fault or anything for writing unrealistic fantasy. I'm just reflecting that people are totally lost.

I'll have to do a little reading and feet back to you on some of this. If you have any articles/journals you could link that's be great! 

In reference to your last comments, I really hope people aren't taking life lessons from a series of fantasy books wherein it's ok to marry thirteen year olds. 

[Red Helm]

On 22/04/2016 at 3:53 AM, redtree said:

1.Would you be so kind to tell my ignorance self about the damage of Long Night? How did you make the conclusion that it wiped out 3/4 of the population ? Quote the source please, if not it seems like an imaginary figure. Even if the damage is that huge, there's 8000 years, 8000 frickin years to rebuild and restore the population.
2.And where is this evidence about armory and castle building ? Storm's End was build by Bran the builder during Age of Heroes some 8000 years ago and until the time the story is set now, the castle has never been described as primitive, in fact it's still one of the toughest castle to break into
3.Regarding for health, well you don't know either. But there's been no mention about new medicine or new herbs
4.1800 years is merely 22.5% of 8000 years, your comparison is irrelevant. 
5.People can opt for ale for some time but not weeks let along months, that'll do wonder to your kidney. And long winter is long winter, if it's 3 or 4 years then obviously people must only survive solely on bread. Even horses wouldn't be able to survive because they'll need fodder and grass doesn't grow during winter. The same scenario applies to goats, cows, and many other livestocks

1. I subscribe Free Northman Reborn's arguments regarding Long Night devastation. They did restore the population, most like. I never argued that they failed to do so.
2. The references to primitive ringforts under the First Men and where architecture stands now. I refer to averages, and Storm's End (which is implied to have been created with magic) is anything but representative of the average. We even see this with Winterfell, given the illusions to it starting out as a series of primiative ringforts before developing into a complex, massive castle complex over the centuries.
3. No, 1800 marks when Britain was finally unified with the Acts of Union 1800. I never wrote 1800 as a reference to the number of years it took. But even if it did, you failed to understand the context of my comparison: Britain took so long to unify, and it is tiny compared to Westeros. Something the size of Westeros unifying entirely is a marvel and shows profound development.
4. Westeros is not the most healthy of societies, so no doubt that does happen from ale consumption. But the ale reference merely existed as a comparison to illustrate that people in Westeros will go without when there is scarcity.

[redtree]

1 hour ago, Red Helm said:

1. I subscribe Free Northman Reborn's arguments regarding Long Night devastation. They did restore the population, most like. I never argued that they failed to do so.
2. The references to primitive ringforts under the First Men and where architecture stands now. I refer to averages, and Storm's End (which is implied to have been created with magic) is anything but representative of the average. We even see this with Winterfell, given the illusions to it starting out as a series of primiative ringforts before developing into a complex, massive castle complex over the centuries.
3. No, 1800 marks when Britain was finally unified with the Acts of Union 1800. I never wrote 1800 as a reference to the number of years it took. But even if it did, you failed to understand the context of my comparison: Britain took so long to unify, and it is tiny compared to Westeros. Something the size of Westeros unifying entirely is a marvel and shows profound development.
4. Westeros is not the most healthy of societies, so no doubt that does happen from ale consumption. But the ale reference merely existed as a comparison to illustrate that people in Westeros will go without when there is scarcity.

1. It's a reader's guess and estimation which is unconfirmed so i tend to see that in lower degree. You said that progress would be stunted, well, whatever it was that got stunted shouldn't be a big issue because it happened 8000 years ago so i disagree with your statement. It's like saying that UK's financial slow down perhaps factored by Henry 8's crazy spending 700 years ago, ergo, that argument has outstandingly small base
2. You compared the primitive ringforts to Red Keep, a more recent built castle yet Red Keep is less stronger than Storm's End therefore there are no to very little technology advancement. And where is the proof that the Starks had no idea to build tower ? Casterly Rock or Highgarden are as old and they had already had towers by then, just like Storm's End who was architected by Brandon so he did already know how to build one, it's most likely because he hadn't got the coin or saw little need for big towers yet
3. You said "for comparison's sake", that's your argument. Also, I don't consider a kingdom unification as a social progress considering they still adopt the same absolute monarchy/total feudal system. It's a change of to whom the lords paid tax and swore allegiance to but not much change for the 99% of people, let alone progress. Same chair, different face
4. Not a logical comparison, there's a different between unhealthy and deadly. But if you prefer that than it's your right. 

[Iris Purpurea]

Reading the world book and coming across a certain Grover, Elmo and Kermit Tully. I had to put the book down straight away and wasn't sure if I wanted to continue reading it really. I like submerging myself into the whole fantasy universe but this transported me straight back to the real world and it almost spoiled the whole series for me really. I try to forget it now but for a little while it made me not able to take anything seriously anymore. I suppose I should see the humour in it

[Dya of Oldstones]

This is a very much a nitpick but in AGOT when Catelyn's children were born, it was Maester Luwin who delivered them. The birthing chamber up until fairly recent times was considered off limits to men, even physicians. Midwives were used even by nobility for that purpose, even in later times when a physician would attend men and women alike for other reasons. Nothing deal breaking here, but it seemed kind of off kilter in a medieval environment.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I can't fathom why Varys is the only person suspicious of Littlefinger. Well him and Tyrion who just happens to be the smartest person in the universe.

[Florina Laufeyson]

On 4/21/2016 at 3:38 AM, Ran said:

I find it weird you've a bigger problem with the warrior maids than the concept of a handful of "Great Fathers" who are the only ones permitted to breed. We've got the former in our actual history, whereas the latter didn't happen in any advanced civilization in recorded history.

 

That, my good man, is because you were talking to a raging misogynist. Good gods, i havent seen that level of sexism in a while. Talk about eyepain. 

Things i cant take seriously? Tyrion being the super smart guy whos managed to survive battles and trips abroad. The most egregious? His newfound talent to Sherlock Scan people and figure out their life stories in 20 minutes. Omg just...ugh. 

That the Ironborn are so thick to think that Balon and Euron had the right idea. Come on. You live in unforgiving islands where its very hard to farm. You live off fish basically, and theres just not enough room for a sprawling population. And you dont want to make treaties with the mainland lords and/or king for lands? Give me a break. Even the Vikings werent that stupid.

Littlefinger in general. Varys, i can believe, because he actually disguises himself and stuff. Littlefinger is out in the open and leaves very obvious fingerprints. Booyyyy....and no one but maybe Varys has found them yet? Please. 

That the Starks and Targaryens never had a formal marriage within them. Thats...that feels weird for a lot of reasons. 

 

[CoddisTheGoddis]

*There are a lot of tall people in Westeros. So many, in fact, that it's probably rarer not to be tall or huge. I just find it kind of funny how every other random character is massive, George loves his giants

*Everything seems too old. The Starks have controlled Winterfell for how many years? 8000?! That's insane. I'm pretty sure the entire history of human civilization on our Earth has been shorter than the reign of House Stark in Winterfell. 

*The Ironborn have been around just as long and they've produced like 2 historical figures ever who weren't total assholes 

*George really likes talking about mummers. Like, a lot. Especially in farce-related situations. I guess I can understand him repeating things from time to time though considering how long this series is 

I can't really think of much else off the top of my head, I find it pretty easy to suspend disbelief about asoiaf

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

First of all, Tyrion's somersault can never be forgotten.

However, that was a mistake that Martin was good enough to admit to. What is worse, in my opinion, is Littlefinger's 'plan' in A Game of Thrones. It just baffles me that his 'brilliant scheme' to hatch a war was based upon the assumption that Cat and Tyrion would randomly bump into one another. After all, had Tyrion reached Kings Landing, Ned would have without a doubt used his usual blunt detective skills and learned that the dagger was not Tyrion's in a week at most. In short, had Tyrion arrived at Kings Landing, Baelish was screwed, which is why he was absurdly lucky that Cat randomly finds and abducts Tyrion in, just in case it wasn't ridiculous enough, the only inn that she and Rodrick decided to stay at.

Honestly, it isn't the contrived plot that annoys me, it is the way that we're told to think that it was such a genius plan when in reality it was the luckiest turn of events that has occurred thus far in the series!

[Elaflynts]

I agree with some of the things others have already mentioned but-one thing for me (minor ad it is) is, their horse situations. Everywhere anyone goes they're provided with "fresh mounts". Like..what is there some kind of Avis-horse trade in program? I thought riders usually have a particular horse they like to ride that has been bread and trained specifically for their use...I come from a family of cattle ranchers, barrel racers and trainers...yeah, an experienced rider can ride just about any horse but..just trading in your prized mount-assumably a very well bread and trained mount, at the first inn because they are  "tired" from being ridden too hard ....that really makes no sense. A rider who is bonded to a specific horse won't just be trading them in every time they get to a new town. 

Riders and their horses are bonded. Period. And, if nothing else? The high born are not giving their "tired" well bread horse up for some farmers less than average, yet "well rested" best offer of a mount.

Just want to say, as a side note- I am not a horse person. I don't ride, I don't even actually like horses. But, I know many who are and every one of them would be DAMNED  Before giving up their trusty stead. I am surprise GRRM didn't put some emphasis on the bond between riders and their mounts, he makes it seems like any horse is disposable and replacable at a whim. Weird. 

 

Before anyone says it- I am aware there are a few characters who's specific mounts are important to them. No need to bring them up, I've got it. IJS-how does the horse trade In program work when highbornes are giving their well bread, highly trained horse up for whatever the "freshest" mount available is?

no sense. 

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

13 minutes ago, Elaflynts said:

I agree with some of the things others have already mentioned but-one thing for me (minor ad it is) is, their horse situations. Everywhere anyone goes they're provided with "fresh mounts". Like..what is there some kind of Avis-horse trade in program? I thought riders usually have a particular horse they like to ride that has been bread and trained specifically for their use...I come from a family of cattle ranchers, barrel racers and trainers...yeah, an experienced rider can ride just about any horse but..just trading in your prized mount-assumably a very well bread and trained mount, at the first inn because they are  "tired" from being ridden too hard ....that really makes no sense. A rider who is bonded to a specific horse won't just be trading them in every time they get to a new town. 

Riders and their horses are bonded. Period. And, if nothing else? The high born are not giving their "tired" well bread horse up for some farmers less than average, yet "well rested" best offer of a mount.

Just want to say, as a side note- I am not a horse person. I don't ride, I don't even actually like horses. But, I know many who are and every one of them would be DAMNED  Before giving up their trusty stead. I am surprise GRRM didn't put some emphasis on the bond between riders and their mounts, he makes it seems like any horse is disposable and replacable at a whim. Weird. 

 

Before anyone says it- I am aware there are a few characters who's specific mounts are important to them. No need to bring them up, I've got it. IJS-how does the horse trade In program work when highbornes are giving their well bread, highly trained horse up for whatever the "freshest" mount available is?

no sense. 

Whilst I agree with your statement, just wanted to point out that it should be bred, and steed.

[the trees have eyes]

On 13/04/2016 at 2:50 AM, Jasta11 said:

 

Breaking out the sexism accusations already? Sheesh. 

She doesn't just beat men, she kills them en masse as if she was a Gregor-esque battlefield terror. Fighting isn't just about skill, especially in a pitched battle; size, stamina, height and strength matters a lot. Granted, the entire sequence is almost surreal in its unrealism, what with the Ironborn having a freaking body count competition over the din of battle and killing something like 5 times their dead while being ambushed by vastly superior numbers. It's like the writing suddenly stumbles into a freaking Lord of the Rings movie.

The "kill count competition" that Legolas and Gimli held at the battle of Hornburg is actually as written by JRRT himself.  I think Legolas "wins" 43 - 42 or something along those lines.  It's definitely over 40 "points" each.

This passage in ADWD stood out glaringly for me because it seemed a conscious JRRT tribute / reference despite the difference in writing style and GRRM went out of his was earlier at battles like The Greenfork and The Whispering Wood to show that noblemen / leaders are just as likely to take a fatal blow in the chaotic melee of a battle as any ordinary soldier and so to make battles realistic by showing individuals dying rather than just an undifferentiated mass of nameless peasants.  The volte face to this competition where combat is turned into a game and the men of the moutain clans are utterly dehumanised into mindless cannon fodder who rush to impale themselves on Asha and Qarl's weapons really disappointed me.  It seemed to go agaisnt everything GRRM has tried to inject into battles.  Those men all had families and lives to return to yet they end up like nameless kamakazes (or orcs) without a thought of tactics, using their numbers, defensive fighting or self-preservation.  Utterly unrealistic and one of the few poor choices I feel GRRM has made. 

[Schwarze Sonne]

Parts of the series I can't take seriously?

Default answer for everyone = Anything to do with numbers

[Pastaeyes]

Bran and Rickon hiding in the crypts... Like that isn't the first place someone would look for two Stark kids.

[Clegane'sPup]

How Brandon received word of Lyanna’s disappearance/kidnapping/absconding and how Eddard knew to look for his sister at Rhaegar’s tower of joy.

Eddard did say he thought to see the three KG at Trident, at the fall of KL and Storm’s End. Kinda implies to me Eddard had no idea these three KG were with his sister.

Eddard was at the Trident, fall of KL and SE taking care or war business. Who told him he could find sister at this tower located in the Prince’s Pass.

[NutBurz]

On 14/04/2016 at 4:11 AM, Miss CS said:

Male-male competition has subsequently forced men to evolve in a different direction than women, which is obvious in sex differences. Men have evolved to be better fighters, because their reproductive success depended on out-doing their rivals, often in combat, but men were also more relied on as hunters and such, or for any physical labor. Females are also attracted to physically imposing men - alpha males, good fighters, so on. Females having been choosing alpha males as preferred mates since before we were even homosapiens sapiens. The result is there to see for anybody who opens their eyes and looks at it.

Are you trying to imply that social behavior is dictating genetics? That Men are stronger because they´re fighters, instead of Men being fighters because they´re stronger? I´m sure that if you go back enough, the social roles of protection and nurturing were pretty confused between the genders.

The kind of shallow feedback you´re proposing (Best physically able men always produces the most offspring) would never favor complex problem-solving. If women had been "choosing" predominantely alpha males, there wouldn´t be a significant number of the weaklings, who needed to bury seeds because they couldn´t hunt  properly, when populations dropped radically.

 

 

re: the topic -  i don´t like the coincidence of Jorah finding Tyrion apparently out of luck. Seems weird.

[King Gendry Baratheon]

On 2016-03-25 at 1:41 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

 

For me, Baelor Breakspear, a crowned prince, risking his life in a trial of seven for a dude that broke his nephew's arm was something bordering the absurd.

Might me unrealistic but damn I loved that moment when he arrived to defend justice. It was rarely seen in ASOIAF Novels 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 4/12/2016 at 10:50 PM, Miss CS said:

Females in combat kicking men's asses with ease is pretty silly. It's so common in fantasy, though. I just wish writers would slap themselves a little, but. I have never seen a girl kick a man's ass in real life. Not seriously, anyhow. Ever seen a mixed sex boxing match? No? There's a reason why not. It doesn't work, for obvious testosterone-related reasons of strength, speed, and aggression.

It isn't helping modern women by filling their heads with impossible fairy-tales. I've come across quite a few people now who think women can seriously defend themselves against men and leave them in a pool of blood. I suppose in an actual defense situation, the fear will kick in and they'll run and be safe. Woe to anybody who reckons Asha Greyjoy is actually a realistic female, but. Modern media might have some sorry stories to answer for, somewhere.

So, this comment is ridiculously sexist, and also just wrong. They are fighting with swords, not doing mixed martial arts. If they did mixed martial arts with armor...it would be..well extremely difficult anyways. Brienne is described as being the same size as a large man, and ridiculously strong for a woman. Not only that, but she has been trained by a master her whole life. Smaller people (whether they are male or female) with a lot of training and also natural fighting skills sword fighting less skilled yet bigger opponents, can certainly win. Otherwise armies would just be filled with a bunch of basketball players. If you handed Michael Jordan a sword than had a 5'5" sword master fight him, guess what, JORDAN WOULD LOSE. (I want to mention I love Jordan, and this is nothing against him, and only against the sexist original poster). I assume Asha has also been traing her whole life. I believe in the Jon Snow story line they talk about him being able to beat others because he has been trained by a sword master his whole life, and that the poverty stricken members of the Knight's Watch did not have access to that. It's the same for Brienne or Asha. They may be smaller than their opponents (in Brienne's case I'm not even sure that is true), but especially in Asha's case, her opponents were probably poor untrained idiots wearing worse armor. If her armor was lighter and she was extremely skilled, she could simply outmaneuver her opponents. She isn't kicking their asses, she is shoving a sword into them...a highly sharpened sword that she has been practicing with her entire life. Yes, an evenly trained male may be able to beat her, but I think evenly matched SWORD fighters, it probably would come down to a split second decision anyways. If she has high battlefield IQ, I can certainly believe she could take down a wide range of opponents. Look, I'm a small man. I weigh probably less than what Asha or Brienne weighed in the books. And yet, I am able to defend myself well. I've been attacked at bars multiple times by bigger men looking to pick on someone, and I've held my own. AND ASHA AND BRIENNE ARE TRAINED!!!!! I've seen women take men down. I'm sorry your male ego is too large to comprehend women beating men in battle, but it happens. There are even examples throughout ACTUAL history of women in combat. And how many female characters are good at fighting, like 5 vs the hundreds of men. I'm sorry, I'm rambling, but come on. Asha Greyjoy could certainly be a realistic female. Last thing. Please go fight Ronda Rousey, and then report to me who wins. I'll put 100 bucks on Ronda. Asha is the sword fighting equivalent of her. 

[lancerman]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 3:10 PM, Remiem said:

Reading the world book and coming across a certain Grover, Elmo and Kermit Tully. I had to put the book down straight away and wasn't sure if I wanted to continue reading it really. I like submerging myself into the whole fantasy universe but this transported me straight back to the real world and it almost spoiled the whole series for me really. I try to forget it now but for a little while it made me not able to take anything seriously anymore. I suppose I should see the humour in it

Dude this is a series where the writer actually made a reference to the Giants beating the 2007 Patriots in one of his recounting of history. Just take it as humor.