Parts of the Series You Have Trouble Taking Seriously

[Clegane'sPup]

Culture. Where you live. What do people think. What do people believe. What economic or social sphere are you involved. What's the educational background.

The peacock much as the random human male likes to strut and the random female picks up on the showmanship. That's life.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

1. Many great houses have survived thousands of years (Long night,invasions,wars,rebellions,etc) only to perish in ASOIAF.
2. Astapor not maintaining its' walls despite being rich.
3. Doran Martell's plan to restore Viserys to the IT without helping him.
4. No sign of technological,architectural,cultural improvement in Westeros during all these years.Everything seems to be going on in the same way for thousands of years.
5. Twyin not knowing or at least suspecting the twincest.
6. The way Ned was convinced that Cersei's children are not Robert's.Baratheon-Lannister weddings don't happen so often (like Stark-Karstark weddings for example) to have an axiom that the children produced by such unions are dark-haired,etc.In the same way Ned should search for his family too (only Arya looks like him).Rhaenys Targaryen,the queen who never was, seems to look like a Targaryen despite having a Baratheon mother.So Baratheon characteristics are not too dominant.

[Orphalesion]

On 20/05/2016 at 6:14 PM, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that the Summer Islanders culture is perfectly believable, as is the 'utopian' feel ascribed to it, even though it is likely not a utopia. 

You raise a very good point. I never found the way the Westerosi think and write about the Summer Islanders particularly unrealistic. it's a "the Grass is Greener" effect. Medieval Europeans  thought similarly about "India" (a word which, back then, could describe any region beyond the Islamic territories) as did their 16th century counterparts about the "New World"

[desire]

The battle of Winterfell..... er..

[Bironic]

31 minutes ago, desire said:

The battle of Winterfell..... er..

Care to explain in more detail?

[Trigger Warning]

Theon taking winterfell. 

Rodrik taking so many men that 30 or so Ironborn can completely capture such a formidable castle in the first place, if he left 10 men the garrison would still probably be able to hold the keep. 

I get that the Ironborn managed to open the main gate and let the rest of their men in but surely the alarm was sounded then, the opening of the outer gate then completely negates the rest of the defences of one of the most formidable castles in Westeros against 30 men. 

Also Theon undertaking it in the first place is ridiculous, the idea that it's a guarantee that Rodrik's basically going to empty the entire garrison to go deal with the Ironborn. Let's go ride across half the North with 30 men so I can capture the seat of the king because this guy's totally going to leave it completely undefended if I distract him. 

[Jairion Lannister]

I wouldn't say I have trouble taking him seriously, as such, since he's a great villain, but Littlefinger's had an incredulous amount of luck and fortune throughout the series thus far to get him into the powerful position he now finds himself in, with pretty much no setbacks, to an extent that would make show Ramsay blush.

Tyrion not exposing his lies regarding the assassin (I think?) is probably the biggest, but he's been lucky on so many occasions. Sansa being taken out of KL after Joffrey died successfully. The assassination of Joffrey going well. Not being exposed for it. Getting away with Jon Arryn's murder. Not being exposed after Lysa went a bit crazy. Sansa not being thrown out of the moon door. He'll probably have his downfall, but he's been built up to epic proportions with pretty much no disappointments so far.

[NutBurz]

Bran´s plot-selective amnesia is hard to swallow

[desire]

14 hours ago, Bironic said:

Care to explain in more detail?

Nope

[YOVMO]

I can't take Brienne seriously at all.....

 

Also hard to swallow is that anyone with any brains, let alone a master player like Varys, could possibly think that either Vicerys with a Dothraki hoard or Dany with sell swords, unsullied and dragons would get to Westeros and a) find any houses happy about the outcome and B)) that even if they managed to take the throne they would be able to rule a peacetime westeros 

[Ebrose]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I can't take Brienne seriously at all.....

 

Also hard to swallow is that anyone with any brains, let alone a master player like Varys, could possibly think that either Vicerys with a Dothraki hoard or Dany with sell swords, unsullied and dragons would get to Westeros and a) find any houses happy about the outcome and B)) that even if they managed to take the throne they would be able to rule a peacetime westeros 

But he doesn't. The plan was to start a Dothraki invasion lead by Viserys or, later, Daenerys, and then present (f)Aegon as the savior that would stop the savages.

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, Ebrose said:

But he doesn't. The plan was to start a Dothraki invasion lead by Viserys or, later, Daenerys, and then present (f)Aegon as the savior that would stop the savages.

I get this, but I am not sure I buy it. (f)A stopping the invasion seems to me another in a long line of red herrings.

[HairGrowsBack]

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I can't take Brienne seriously at all.....

In what aspect , if I may ask ?

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Bran´s plot-selective amnesia is hard to swallow

Regarding Cersei and Jaime you mean? It's made quite clear he is repressing that (he half recalls it when someone tells him of the twincest and freaks out until BR helps him forget again). That is not uncommon for people who have suffered trauma

[NutBurz]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Regarding Cersei and Jaime you mean? It's made quite clear he is repressing that (he half recalls it when someone tells him of the twincest and freaks out until BR helps him forget again). That is not uncommon for people who have suffered trauma

Yes, sure, it´s just extremely selective. The little I know about this kind of trauma, he should probably have forgotten about everything that happened; but the first chapter with him awake, he dreams that the Gargoyles "might have been lions once". I don´t see how he can remember such a telling detail and not have everything rushing through him at the same time. From lions to lannister is not even a step in their world, especially considering he has not forgotten that his house was filled with lannisters a couple weeks ago.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, NutBurz said:

4 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

In what aspect , if I may ask ?

d

[YOVMO]

4 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

In what aspect , if I may ask ?

Sorry about above, hit the wrong button.

 

At first I liked the Brienne story. Her love for Renly was interesting. That whole generation is interesting to me -- the generation of people old enough to have been children  during the war of the usurper and the grey joy revolution so they are in a position of being looked down upon as weak (as an aside, I never read Renly or Loras as being gay, but rather as being what Cat calls "the nights of summer" walking around in fancy attire or fighting in tourneys but never having been in real war and taking shit for it).

 

Brienne's freakish size doesn't particularly bother me. Someone has to be a different. However, her fighting prowess is exaggerated to the point where she is no longer a realistic character. The idea that she could best Jamie Lannister (even given his predicament) is nonsense. Sinking Ser Robin's boat by scaling a cliff and pushing a builder on to it? Ridiculous. Killing Rorge when she fights the Brave Companions for the second time, I don't see it. Even when she wins the Melee and gets her cloak from Renly.

 

in the end I find that the dragons are far more realistic characters than Brienne. She may be strong. She may even be strong for a man and I will accept her height, but she has been portrayed as ridiculous. Oathkeeper? They might as well name the sword Deus ex machine. She isn't just an anomaly, she is super natural. I am willing to accept that there is stuff in the asoiaf world that would be super natural in ours, but Brienne is supernatural given the internal rules and logic of her own world.

[HairGrowsBack]

5 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Sorry about above, hit the wrong button.

 

1-At first I liked the Brienne story. Her love for Renly was interesting. That whole generation is interesting to me -- the generation of people old enough to have been children  during the war of the usurper and the grey joy revolution so they are in a position of being looked down upon as weak (as an aside, I never read Renly or Loras as being gay, but rather as being what Cat calls "the nights of summer" walking around in fancy attire or fighting in tourneys but never having been in real war and taking shit for it).

 

2)Brienne's freakish size doesn't particularly bother me. Someone has to be a different. However, her fighting prowess is exaggerated to the point where she is no longer a realistic character. The idea that she could best Jamie Lannister (even given his predicament) is nonsense. Sinking Ser Robin's boat by scaling a cliff and pushing a builder on to it? Ridiculous. Killing Rorge when she fights the Brave Companions for the second time, I don't see it. Even when she wins the Melee and gets her cloak from Renly.

 

in the end I find that the dragons are far more realistic characters than Brienne. She may be strong. She may even be strong for a man and I will accept her height, but she has been portrayed as ridiculous. Oathkeeper? They might as well name the sword Deus ex machine. She isn't just an anomaly, she is super natural. I am willing to accept that there is stuff in the asoiaf world that would be super natural in ours, but Brienne is supernatural given the internal rules and logic of her own world.

1- I  agree it's a very interesting generation that kind of bridges the gap between the main characters (the 30 something vs the ten-ish youngsters).

2) There is nothing that suggests that she would have been able to beat Jaime. He is weak, starved, and in chains and she can barely hold her own against him.

The boulder: she is very, very strong and Tarth seemed to be a very similar environment , with cliffs and rivers, so it makes sense that she has little trouble climbing and swimming. 

Rorge is an untrained, bigger than usual dude, who doesn't have a Valyrian steel sword with him. Not surprising she beat him at all, imo.

3) I don't get the last point. She's just very strong and tall. The rest she acquired through years of practice, with a competent master at arms. She has  a great sword, but so do several other characters in the story. I don't see how this is deux ex machina.

 

[YOVMO]

15 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

1- I  agree it's a very interesting generation that kind of bridges the gap between the main characters (the 30 something vs the ten-ish youngsters).

2) There is nothing that suggests that she would have been able to beat Jaime. He is weak, starved, and in chains and she can barely hold her own against him.

The boulder: she is very, very strong and Tarth seemed to be a very similar environment , with cliffs and rivers, so it makes sense that she has little trouble climbing and swimming. 

Rorge is an untrained, bigger than usual dude, who doesn't have a Valyrian steel sword with him. Not surprising she beat him at all, imo.

3) I don't get the last point. She's just very strong and tall. The rest she acquired through years of practice, with a competent master at arms. She has  a great sword, but so do several other characters in the story. I don't see how this is deux ex machina.

 

I believe each and every one of your points is fair and if Brienne beat a weakened Jamie or did some of these other things then I could probably excuse it. However, it is just too much pile on for my taste. The point is hammered home that she is both a) large b ) strong and c) has had professional combat training and any one of these things would have been possible I believe. But this is a dangerous world, man or woman, and while Brienne does have some things in her favor it just seems to me that she is far more than makes sense without some super natural explanation. It just seems to me that her battle prowess has been shoehorned in something awful.

 

The Bridge generation is totally fascinating to me. Every single member. They are, essentially, much weaker than those a little older. Think Lancel to Jamie, Renly to Robert, Loras to Eddard. They aren't the children born after the war. I always thought it was a shame that HBO decided to run with the homosexual theme because who Loras Tyrell was boning was infinitely less interesting, imo, than the physchology of him as maybe the best or at the very least one of the top 3 warriors in the world wrt technique but having no war experience because there simply is no wars. Just the idea of Renly enjoying the finer things in life and the trappings as the lord of storms end, a member of the council and brother to the king all due to a war he was simply to young to participate in is a fascination plot. This is, however, for another post I would guess.

 

Back to Brienne, I have no desire to fight to the death about it. I just find that any one or two of the amazing feats of prowess she performed would have hammered the point home just fine, but the fact that there are so many of them is a bit ham fisted and basically ruins her character for me.

[HairGrowsBack]

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

snip

No worries, agree to disagree.

I'll only add in that Loras and Renly being lovers is canon in either medium, and I don't think it diminishes anything, and doesn't exclude your analysis .