Daenerys Dayne

[HoboJed]

Disclaimer 1: I know I'm not the first person to suggest something along these lines, but I just want to articulate my thoughts, and perhaps shine a different light onto the subject matter.

Disclaimer 2: I'm not even that convinced myself with what I'm going to talk about, but I think it is worth discussing any way. If you think it is too silly, that is fine, but maybe have a read any way?

Okay, with that out of the way, let's get stuck in!

Today I want to talk about the possibility of Daenerys being half Dayne, how this could be without rupturing the space-time continuum, what hints there are for this, and (most importantly), what this could mean for the story going forwards.

If you want to skip to the bits that you may not have seen before, go straight to the "How?" section below, and then "Why?".

Who?

First of all, I would like to discuss the possibilities of how Daenerys could be half Dayne. I'm not going to get into nitty-gritty detail, just the broad strokes of what it would take for this to work.

So let us start at the beginning: conception. There are essentially four potential Daynes who would have been alive around the time Daenerys was conceived (ignoring cadet branches):

• Edric Dayne's father
• Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning
• Lady Ashara Dayne
• Lady Allyria Dayne

I will discount Edric Dayne's father, as we know so little about him, we don't even know his name, so there is literally nothing to go on, but all other three Daynes are worth talking about.

Of the remaining three Dayne siblings, Arthur is the only male. This is important, as if we are to believe that Daenerys's mother is Rhaella, then that would leave Arthur as the only viable Dayne. Also, Arthur was of the kingsguard, and would have been able to be alone with Rhaella. However we are always led to believe that Arthur Dayne is a shining example of a knight, and to bear a child with Rhaella would not only be an affront to the king he is in service to, but also a clear breaking of his oath of celibacy. On top of this, Arthur Dayne would have been at the Tower of Joy at the time of Daenerys's conception, so for all these reasons I think he can safely be discounted.

That leaves Ashara and Allyria. We don't know how old Allyria is, but we do know that she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion who was too young to father Daenerys (Although interestingly his sigil is surprisingly fitting for a purple eyed girl called Stormborn: purple lightning).

That then leaves us with Ashara. What do we know about Ashara? Many men were taken by her beauty, she had a stillborn daughter and she committed suicide. Whilst it is commonly accepted that the baby was conceived at the tourney at Harrenhal, and that Ashara committed suicide shortly after the war, but neither of these are explicitly stated in the books (unless I'm greatly mistaken). This leaves open a lot of wiggle room for timings, and I think makes Ashara our best bet here.

So, if Ashara is the mother, who is the father? I haven't a clue, and that isn't important to this discussion. Next.

How?

So... the next problem is that if Daenerys is a Dayne born in Starfall, why does she think she is a Targaryen born on Dragonstone? Well, here is the meat of my theory, and where I hope to provide an angle that you may not have seen before (using similar elements, but arranged in a different way). Let me start by saying the house with the red door IS in Braavos, and Daenerys's memories of being there are exactly as she remembers, with a lemon tree outside the window... now why is it that Daenerys remembers the tree, but not where it came from? Perhaps it came with her.

My suggestion is that the child born to Rhaella was stillborn or sickly, and the Martells offered a replacement child as part of their deal to wed Arianne to Viserys. Ashara's daughter was then taken from her at birth, and she then either killed herself in despair, or was killed to prevent her from telling anyone what happened. Oberyn Martell then took the infant Daenerys to Braavos along with a lemon tree as a gift for the Sealord of Braavos.

So how come Viserys doesn't remember any of this? Well, perhaps he does, or perhaps he doesn't. If Viserys does remember, then that raises questions regarding his actions in A Game of Thrones but as we will see in the hints section, this isn't as clear cut as it may at first seem. If, on the other hand, he doesn't know, how could the switch have been made without him noticing?

Well, if the original child was sickly, it is not unreasonable to believe that Viserys wouldn't have been kept away from her, and a change of appearance (as long as it isn't too drastic) could easily be attributed to a sudden improvement in health.

Hints

I will now highlight some parts of the books that (when looked at from the right angle) could support this theory:

• The most obvious is when Barristan Selmy is reminiscing about Ashara: 

  Quote

  Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter ... But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn

   ... or so we are led to believe.
• Daenerys's very first chapter is actually full of subtle moments that could be taken to show Daenerys is not the Targaryen princess she thinks she is (but I will be the first to admit that some of them also read as her not feeling like a princess yet, which is important for her story arch). First is a quote from Viserys: 

  Quote

  Tonight you must look like a princess

  Note that Viserys didn't say "Tonight you must look like the princess that you are". Then just a short while later we have the following:

  Quote

  "The Dragon Remembers." And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not

  Next we have Daenerys's memories of Ser Willem Darry:

  Quote

  He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady"

  "My Lady" is not an appropriate thing to call a princess. It is, however, a fitting title for the daughter of Ashara Dayne. Did Darry occasionally let slip what he knew? Next, Daenerys reflects on Viserys's seeming inconsistent attitude:

  Quote

  For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian

  Illyrio then arrives and evaluates Daenerys:

  Quote

  Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes ... she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt ...

  Why say this if everyone already knew she was a Targaryen princess? He is not even mentioning her clothing here, just her physical characteristics. The trailing off at the end almost makes it seem like he knows something more than he is saying. On the way to Khal Drogo's manse, Viserys says:

  Quote

  I am the last dragon

  Quite...

• On the very first page of Daenerys's first chapter, both her's and the Viserys's eye colours are mentioned. They are not the same. This seems irrelevant at the time it is mentioned. They are the only two people in the story to have purple eyes at this point. However, at no point in the books so far has another specific Targaryen been described as having violet eyes. In fact only two characters other than Daenerys have been described as having violet eyes: Sweets and (you guessed it!) Ashara Dayne.

• The infamous lemon tree. It clearly hints to something, and GRRM has seemed to confirm it hints to something beyond what we already know (so not just Dorne's involvement with Daenerys's past).

• What's in a name? This is a little bit silly, but Daenerys's name is an anagram of Ser Dayne (if named by her mother, as GRRM has said, it could have been a secret homage to her lost brother...), and is almost a homophone of "Dayne heiress". Also, the previous Daenerys was wed to the Prince of Dorne as part of the treaty to bring them into the seven kingdoms.

There are more, but I don't want to bore you all to death (if I haven't already )

Why?

Well, other than the fact it would make her a good counterpoint to Jon Snow (a bastard who thinks she is the Targaryen heiress), I can see a good reason to make Daenerys a Dayne specifically: Don't laugh, but she could be The Sword of the Morning!

I said don't laugh!

Seriously...

Oh, wait... I don't mean the petite girl will become a mighty warrior and wield the greatsword Dawn into battle. That would be ridiculous. No. I meant the far more sensible notion that she will be the literal Sword of the Morning: Lightbringer. What if Sword of the Morning was originally the title bestowed upon Nissa Nissa after her soul fused with Lightbringer (later renamed Dawn)? What if over time people forgot that, and merely remembered that only the worthy may become the Sword of the Morning? What if people started to think it just meant the wielder of the sword, not the person who's soul goes into the sword? What if Dayne blood is the REAL bloodline of fire? Starks of ice in the North, and Daynes of fire in the South. What if Jon has to kill Daenerys in order to save the world?

Any way, I had best go get some sleep. I hope you enjoyed this, or at the very least had some good laughs at my idiocy.

[Scorpion92]

Actually, I do not think this theory is an idiocy. The more and more I read Dany's chapters, the more I have a suspicion she is not who she thinks she is.

And Ned's reaction to Dany's assassination attempt does raise some suspicions: yeah, yeah, he is honorable and good and all that, but still, she is Mad King's daughter, a person who killed Ned's father and brother. If he knew something after his travel to Starfall I could see why he would be so protective of Dany.

I am really curious to speculate if Ashara Dayne is indeed Dany's mother, perhaps Dany's biological father is Brandon Stark? Oh boy, that will turn everything upside down in this series. Maybe the shadows in the tent that Dany saw of a great wolf and a man in flames is metaphorical of her dad Brandon. I don't know, we will see I guess.

[Rippounet]

28 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I am really curious to speculate if Ashara Dayne is indeed Dany's mother, perhaps Dany's biological father is Brandon Stark?

Dany is too young to be Brandon's daughter.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

And Ned's reaction to Dany's assassination attempt does raise some suspicions: yeah, yeah, he is honorable and good and all that, but still, she is Mad King's daughter, a person who killed Ned's father and brother. If he knew something after his travel to Starfall I could see why he would be so protective of Dany.

Isn't Ned's utter disgust at the slaughter of children explanation enough?

And why would the fact of Dany being the Mad King's daughter (not actually the Mad King herself) have anything at all to do with what happened to Ned's father and brother? She hadn't even been born yet. Most likely she hadn't even been conceived yet.

Frankly, I don't see any need for further explanation of Ned's strenuously resisting assassinating a Targaryen child beyond what the text clearly shows: he's appalled by the murder of children.

 

[Scorpion92]

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Dany is too young to be Brandon's daughter.

If Ashara visited Brandon in King's Landing in his cell while he was arrested, it might not be a stretch though. She was Elia Martell's handmaiden after all.

But according to Barristan, she got dishonored at Harrenhal so what do I know...

8 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Isn't Ned's utter disgust at the slaughter of children explanation enough?

And why would the fact of Dany being the Mad King's daughter (not actually the Mad King herself) have anything at all to do with what happened to Ned's father and brother? She hadn't even been born yet. Most likely she hadn't even been conceived yet.

Frankly, I don't see any need for further explanation of Ned's strenuously resisting assassinating a Targaryen child beyond what the text clearly shows: he's appalled by the murder of children.

 

Yeah, you are probably right. But one does not need to contradict another: Ned would be disturbed at attempts of killing a child AND because he knows something he does not let on.

Still, I think you are onto something here with Ashara possibly being Dany's mom. If Brandon is really Dany's dad, then it makes her and Jon cousins AS WELL as cousin to Arya, Bran and Sansa. I dunno, I still doubt it, but it is fun to speculate.

[StarkofWinterfell]

5 hours ago, HoboJed said:

Disclaimer 1: I know I'm not the first person to suggest something along these lines, but I just want to articulate my thoughts, and perhaps shine a different light onto the subject matter.

Disclaimer 2: I'm not even that convinced myself with what I'm going to talk about, but I think it is worth discussing any way. If you think it is too silly, that is fine, but maybe have a read any way?

Okay, with that out of the way, let's get stuck in!

Today I want to talk about the possibility of Daenerys being half Dayne, how this could be without rupturing the space-time continuum, what hints there are for this, and (most importantly), what this could mean for the story going forwards.

If you want to skip to the bits that you may not have seen before, go straight to the "How?" section below, and then "Why?".

Who?

First of all, I would like to discuss the possibilities of how Daenerys could be half Dayne. I'm not going to get into nitty-gritty detail, just the broad strokes of what it would take for this to work.

So let us start at the beginning: conception. There are essentially four potential Daynes who would have been alive around the time Daenerys was conceived (ignoring cadet branches):

• Edric Dayne's father
• Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning
• Lady Ashara Dayne
• Lady Allyria Dayne

I will discount Edric Dayne's father, as we know so little about him, we don't even know his name, so there is literally nothing to go on, but all other three Daynes are worth talking about.

Of the remaining three Dayne siblings, Arthur is the only male. This is important, as if we are to believe that Daenerys's mother is Rhaella, then that would leave Arthur as the only viable Dayne. Also, Arthur was of the kingsguard, and would have been able to be alone with Rhaella. However we are always led to believe that Arthur Dayne is a shining example of a knight, and to bear a child with Rhaella would not only be an affront to the king he is in service to, but also a clear breaking of his oath of celibacy. On top of this, Arthur Dayne would have been at the Tower of Joy at the time of Daenerys's conception, so for all these reasons I think he can safely be discounted.

That leaves Ashara and Allyria. We don't know how old Allyria is, but we do know that she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion who was too young to father Daenerys (Although interestingly his sigil is surprisingly fitting for a purple eyed girl called Stormborn: purple lightning).

That then leaves us with Ashara. What do we know about Ashara? Many men were taken by her beauty, she had a stillborn daughter and she committed suicide. Whilst it is commonly accepted that the baby was conceived at the tourney at Harrenhal, and that Ashara committed suicide shortly after the war, but neither of these are explicitly stated in the books (unless I'm greatly mistaken). This leaves open a lot of wiggle room for timings, and I think makes Ashara our best bet here.

So, if Ashara is the mother, who is the father? I haven't a clue, and that isn't important to this discussion. Next.

How?

So... the next problem is that if Daenerys is a Dayne born in Starfall, why does she think she is a Targaryen born on Dragonstone? Well, here is the meat of my theory, and where I hope to provide an angle that you may not have seen before (using similar elements, but arranged in a different way). Let me start by saying the house with the red door IS in Braavos, and Daenerys's memories of being there are exactly as she remembers, with a lemon tree outside the window... now why is it that Daenerys remembers the tree, but not where it came from? Perhaps it came with her.

My suggestion is that the child born to Rhaella was stillborn or sickly, and the Martells offered a replacement child as part of their deal to wed Arianne to Viserys. Ashara's daughter was then taken from her at birth, and she then either killed herself in despair, or was killed to prevent her from telling anyone what happened. Oberyn Martell then took the infant Daenerys to Braavos along with a lemon tree as a gift for the Sealord of Braavos.

So how come Viserys doesn't remember any of this? Well, perhaps he does, or perhaps he doesn't. If Viserys does remember, then that raises questions regarding his actions in A Game of Thrones but as we will see in the hints section, this isn't as clear cut as it may at first seem. If, on the other hand, he doesn't know, how could the switch have been made without him noticing?

Well, if the original child was sickly, it is not unreasonable to believe that Viserys wouldn't have been kept away from her, and a change of appearance (as long as it isn't too drastic) could easily be attributed to a sudden improvement in health.

Hints

I will now highlight some parts of the books that (when looked at from the right angle) could support this theory:

• The most obvious is when Barristan Selmy is reminiscing about Ashara:   ... or so we are led to believe.
• Daenerys's very first chapter is actually full of subtle moments that could be taken to show Daenerys is not the Targaryen princess she thinks she is (but I will be the first to admit that some of them also read as her not feeling like a princess yet, which is important for her story arch). First is a quote from Viserys:  Note that Viserys didn't say "Tonight you must look like the princess that you are". Then just a short while later we have the following:

  Next we have Daenerys's memories of Ser Willem Darry:

  "My Lady" is not an appropriate thing to call a princess. It is, however, a fitting title for the daughter of Ashara Dayne. Did Darry occasionally let slip what he knew? Next, Daenerys reflects on Viserys's seeming inconsistent attitude:

  Illyrio then arrives and evaluates Daenerys:

  Why say this if everyone already knew she was a Targaryen princess? He is not even mentioning her clothing here, just her physical characteristics. The trailing off at the end almost makes it seem like he knows something more than he is saying. On the way to Khal Drogo's manse, Viserys says:

  Quite...

• On the very first page of Daenerys's first chapter, both her's and the Viserys's eye colours are mentioned. They are not the same. This seems irrelevant at the time it is mentioned. They are the only two people in the story to have purple eyes at this point. However, at no point in the books so far has another specific Targaryen been described as having violet eyes. In fact only two characters other than Daenerys have been described as having violet eyes: Sweets and (you guessed it!) Ashara Dayne.

• The infamous lemon tree. It clearly hints to something, and GRRM has seemed to confirm it hints to something beyond what we already know (so not just Dorne's involvement with Daenerys's past).

• What's in a name? This is a little bit silly, but Daenerys's name is an anagram of Ser Dayne (if named by her mother, as GRRM has said, it could have been a secret homage to her lost brother...), and is almost a homophone of "Dayne heiress". Also, the previous Daenerys was wed to the Prince of Dorne as part of the treaty to bring them into the seven kingdoms.

There are more, but I don't want to bore you all to death (if I haven't already )

Why?

Well, other than the fact it would make her a good counterpoint to Jon Snow (a bastard who thinks she is the Targaryen heiress), I can see a good reason to make Daenerys a Dayne specifically: Don't laugh, but she could be The Sword of the Morning!

I said don't laugh!

Seriously...

Oh, wait... I don't mean the petite girl will become a mighty warrior and wield the greatsword Dawn into battle. That would be ridiculous. No. I meant the far more sensible notion that she will be the literal Sword of the Morning: Lightbringer. What if Sword of the Morning was originally the title bestowed upon Nissa Nissa after her soul fused with Lightbringer (later renamed Dawn)? What if over time people forgot that, and merely remembered that only the worthy may become the Sword of the Morning? What if people started to think it just meant the wielder of the sword, not the person who's soul goes into the sword? What if Dayne blood is the REAL bloodline of fire? Starks of ice in the North, and Daynes of fire in the South. What if Jon has to kill Daenerys in order to save the world?

Any way, I had best go get some sleep. I hope you enjoyed this, or at the very least had some good laughs at my idiocy.

I have one word for you: lemongate

Daenerys is the child of Ned + Ashara

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Actually, I do not think this theory is an idiocy. The more and more I read Dany's chapters, the more I have a suspicion she is not who she thinks she is.

And Ned's reaction to Dany's assassination attempt does raise some suspicions: yeah, yeah, he is honorable and good and all that, but still, she is Mad King's daughter, a person who killed Ned's father and brother.

So? He also gives Cersei a running start in order to allow her save her kid's lives. And he absolutely despises Cersei, the Kingslayer, and their betrayal of Robert. But Ned doesn't take out the sins of Aerys on Dany, nor the sins of Jaime and Cersei on their children.

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

If Ashara visited Brandon in King's Landing in his cell while he was arrested, it might not be a stretch though. She was Elia Martell's handmaiden after all.

Dany was born approx. nine turns of the moon after the Sack of King's Landing. Which mean she was conceived around the Sack, when Brandon had been dead for a year at least.

 

 

[HoboJed]

Like I said in the original post, I don't know who the father could be, but I can tell you who it isn't. Brandon cannot possibly be the father, as has already been pointed out. The only Starks who it could have been are Eddard and Benjen, but Eddard was too honourable to father a bastard when already betrothed to Caitlyn (important for R + L = J), and Benjen was at Winterfell for the whole war, whilst Ashara would have been in the South somewhere (if I remember correctly, she was already at Starfall when Eddard got there).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

If Ashara visited Brandon in King's Landing in his cell while he was arrested, it might not be a stretch though. She was Elia Martell's handmaiden after all.

Brandon died in 282 and Dany was born in 284. I never knew that Ashara was a spurdog.

 

How can a StarkDayne not only have the Targ colors, which someone could say that are the same with Dayne colors, but also look like Naerys?

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

The one quote that gets me thinking is when Quaithe says: "Remember who you are, the dragons know, do you?" This makes me thnk there is some mystery around her parentage. When we get Jon's true parentage, I think this is how we find out Dany too.

[HoboJed]

48 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How can a StarkDayne not only have the Targ colors, which someone could say that are the same with Dayne colors, but also look like Naerys?

The hair colour is certainly another hit against a Stark/Dayne pairing. White-blonde hair may be a Dayne thing, but Ashara had dark hair. As for your mention of Naerys, that's true, but you could also ask how she could not be a Dayne and look somewhat like Ashara (according to Barristan Selmy). There is always the possibility of her being half Targaryen, half Dayne, making her the Dayne Naerys (geddit? ). The timing would be difficult there, although I'm not sure it is impossible (if she was in King's Landing shortly before the sacking).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

36 minutes ago, HoboJed said:

be a Dayne and look somewhat like Ashara

Actually because of Egg's mother Dyanna is has some Dayne blood. Even if I believe that the Targs had Dayne blood way before Maekar's marriage. So she could *had* Ashara's eyes without being a Dayne.

[norwaywolf123]

10 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Actually, I do not think this theory is an idiocy. The more and more I read Dany's chapters, the more I have a suspicion she is not who she thinks she is.

And Ned's reaction to Dany's assassination attempt does raise some suspicions: yeah, yeah, he is honorable and good and all that, but still, she is Mad King's daughter, a person who killed Ned's father and brother. If he knew something after his travel to Starfall I could see why he would be so protective of Dany.

I am really curious to speculate if Ashara Dayne is indeed Dany's mother, perhaps Dany's biological father is Brandon Stark? Oh boy, that will turn everything upside down in this series. Maybe the shadows in the tent that Dany saw of a great wolf and a man in flames is metaphorical of her dad Brandon. I don't know, we will see I guess.

more like Rhaegars daughter he was in the area "Dorne"

[HoboJed]

3 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

more like Rhaegars daughter he was in the area "Dorne"

Rhaegar was busy having his chest crushed by Robert's warhammer at the Trident. The only Targaryen that could be her father is who we are already led to believe is her father: Aerys II, the mad king.

[Rippounet]

7 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

If Ashara visited Brandon in King's Landing in his cell while he was arrested, it might not be a stretch though. She was Elia Martell's handmaiden after all.

It still is. Brandon dies before the war even starts. Dany is born after the war ended. The war lasted a year.

I see no way to make B+A work, and I'm a rather open-minded bloke.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

9 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Yeah, you are probably right. But one does not need to contradict another: Ned would be disturbed at attempts of killing a child AND because he knows something he does not let on.

I think you're right about that. But the something he is not letting on about is not about Dany, it's most likely about Jon Snow imo.

 

4 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

The one quote that gets me thinking is when Quaithe says: "Remember who you are, the dragons know, do you?" This makes me thnk there is some mystery around her parentage. When we get Jon's true parentage, I think this is how we find out Dany too.

Or, the "remember who you are" is saying "you're not acting as a Targaryen should, get off the stick and start throwing around some fire and blood, girl!"

 

[tallTale]

Dany is so targ she farts dragon fire. At the least she's half dragon. 

My guess without real proof is that she's Jon's sister.

[The Dames do Moan]

Isn't there a quote in the books about Aerys getting a little bit to "close" with Elia's handmaiden's and then having to be dismissed? Or something like that? I can't seem to find it now though so maybe not.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

31 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Isn't there a quote in the books about Aerys getting a little bit to "close" with Elia's handmaiden's and then having to be dismissed? Or something like that? I can't seem to find it now though so maybe not.

Not handmaiden, nobody would have given a rat's ass about that.

But he would  on a regular basis get handsy with Queen Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting, who would afterwards  leave the court.

[The Dames do Moan]

1 minute ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Not handmaiden, nobody would have given a rat's ass about that.

But he would  on a regular basis get handsy with Queen Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting, who would afterwards  leave the court.

Yeah ladies-in-waiting, that's what I meant, good call.