Daenerys Dayne 2: Who's the daddy?

[HoboJed]

This is a follow up to my previous thread where I discussed the possibility of Daenerys being the daughter of Ashara Dayne:

This time I will be looking at potential fathers, given Ashara is her mother. (the same disclaimers from the previous post apply to this one!)

There are quite a few names in this list (Ashara was a popular woman!) so I will split them by house, and at the end I will discuss who I think are the most likely candidates, and what that could add to the story.

I may as well start with the house that is probably first in most peoples' minds:

Stark

There are several reasons Daenerys being the daughter of a Stark would be compelling. First of all it would mirror Jon Snow's beliefs about his father. Secondly it would keep Daenerys involved with one of the main houses of the story. Thirdly it would be a nice payoff to all the hate she has built up against the house. The major problem is explaining where she got her looks.

• Brandon: At first glance, Brandon seems a likely candidate. He was known to be a bit a ladies man, and he would be the obvious other "Stark" that Barristan Selmy thought Ashara "turned to". Big problem, though: He was dead. Next!
• Eddard: That Eddard had feelings for Ashara, there is little doubt. It is obviously heavily implied that Jon is Eddard and Ashara's son, so if that turns out to be false, why can't Daenerys turn out to be their daughter? Wouldn't it be fun if Eddard's supposed bastard turned out to be the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, and the supposed heiress to the Targaryen dynasty turned out to be Eddard's bastard? Maybe, but it would also undermine a part of what makes R + L = J so compelling. That moment when it is finally revealed that Eddard never tarnished his honour in fathering a bastard, and his actions were purely from a love of his sister. In addition to this, there isn't a really good point in the timeline where this could have happened. At first he would have been too focused on finishing the war and saving his sister, and after the Tower of Joy, Ashara would see him as the man who killed (or at least helped kill) her brother.
• Benjen: Of the three Stark brothers, Benjen is the last that would generally come to mind, but perhaps that is a sign in his favour? Problem is, during the war he was the Stark in Winterfell, so to be the father he would either have to have left Winterfell, or Ashara would have had to go to Winterfell. Either way, this could have been the reason Benjen took the black. If he left Winterfell, then he failed his duty. If Ashara came to Winterfell, him getting Ashara pregnant whilst under his protection would be seen as a serious problem, particularly if it wasn't consensual. Remember, "Castle Black teems with murderers, theives and rapists." Which one is Benjen? Why would Ashara go to Winterfell during the war? Perhaps Eddard suggested she go there for her safety. How did she get from Winterfell to Starfall so quickly at the end of the war (conception around the time of the sacking of King's Landing, and Eddard finding her at Starfall after the Tower of Joy)? Seems quite tight, but potentially possible.

Lannister

The Lannisters are one of Daenerys's most hated families for many obvious reasons. Can you imagine how she would feel if she turned out to be one of them? Can you imagine how she would feel if she found that out after wiping the rest of them off the face of the Earth? It would certainly be a heart wrenching situation to be in. Daenerys has previously worn a Lion skin, potentially hinting her true heritage?

• Tyrion: Too young.
• Jaime: Too "faithful" to Cersei.
• Kevan: Too... boring?
• Tywin: We know Tywin has been known to secretly share the company of women since the passing of his wife. So, with that in mind, is it possible that he may have slept with Ashara? Sure. Is it likely? Not really.

Targaryen

Hey, there is nothing in the theory of Daenerys being Ashara's daughter that says she can't still be a Targaryen (Just like Jon Snow being Rhaegar's son doesn't stop him from being a Stark). It would certainly be the easiest (but not only) way of explaining her looks.

• Rhaegar: It would seem that Rhaegar was already polyamorous, so what is one more woman to love? Plus he may have wanted to increase his chances of fulfilling prophecy. But he was busy being smashed to pieces by Robert at this time...
• Aerys: The Mad King was known for taking liberties with the ladies at court, and Ashara was one of those ladies (though perhaps not at this time). It would be an interesting twist if it turned out that her father was exactly who she thought he was, but I'm not sure it adds much to the story.

Martell

We know the Marells were involved in Daenerys's life from an early age. What is to say they don't have a bigger stake in her than we know? And let us not forget that if Daenerys was a Martell, she would actually be a direct descendant of Naerys Targaryen, to whom she is supposed to hold a striking resemblance (not to mention the original Daenerys). Also worth noting that the Martell's arms is effectively a weapon being thrust through fire, which would be relevant if she turns out to be a Nissa Nissa type character. On the other hand, Daenerys has none of the Salty Dornish look that the Martells are known for (but to be fair, Jon doesn't look like a Targaryen). One last thing: Daenerys makes for a nice extension to the Martell words: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken, Unburnt...

• Doran: I don't believe Doran would have had the means, nor the will.
• Oberyn: Oberyn, on the other hand, is known for having many bastards by many women. In particular, he is known for having many bastard daughters. And his daughters are known for being rather headstrong, something Daenerys has come to show she can be. He was also one of the men who danced with Ashara at the tourney at Harrenhal, showing that they have some history. Also, if it was Oberyn who took Daenerys from Ashara (as discussed in the previous thread), then this would explain how he knew about her (because she was his own child). In addition, the Sand Snakes are all associated with a weapon; What if Daenerys's weapon association is Dawn (once again, check the previous thread)? One hit against this is that Daenerys is never mentioned as having "viper eyes;" a trait all the sand snakes are said to have.

Hightower

Why consider the Hightowers, given we know so little about them? Lynesse Hightower. We know that the reason Jorah is so obsessed with Daenerys is that she looks like his second wife, Lynesse. Could this be more than a coincidence? Could it be that they are closely related? Leyton Hightower has been conveniently hidding, putting him in a similar situation to Howland Reed. Could this hint that he too has knowledge about a mystery, and is being held back until the story is ready for him? The main issue with the Hightowers is that we know very little about them, so there are no candidates that really stick out as possibilities. Leyton himself is probably too old (although probably not as old as his uncle Gerold), and his sons only have brief mentions.

Baratheon

There are some interesting things that could come from Daenerys being one of Robert's bastards, but she doesn't have the Baratheon look, and that would just destroy one of the main themes from the first book (despite it being genetically absurd... everyone in the world should look like a Baratheon by this point if their genes are that potent). As such, I don't think it is worth discussing the Baratheon brothers.

Conclusion

So, who are the main candidates? I would probably say Oberyn Martell, Benjen Stark, and one of the Hightowers (in that order). In fact, I would put Oberyn far ahead of all the other candidates (which is a surprise to me, because I hadn't considered him until I started writing this post!). The one thing that doesn't fit are her eyes, but I will certainly be looking out for references to her eyes looking like those of her dragons (reptilian) in The Winds of Winter!

So now that we've settled on O + A = D (for the sake of this thread. I still wouldn't make a money bet on it being correct!), how could the whole scenario have gone down?

Well, some time close to the end of the war, Oberyn meets up with Ashara and conceive Daenerys. Meanwhile, Aerys and Rhaella conceive their own child, and Rhaella flees Kings Landing with Viserys. Nine months later, Daenerys is born, but the Targaryen baby is stillborn. Due to the allegiance between the Martells and the Targaryens, the Martells hear of the death of Rhaella and the Targaryen baby. Oberyn then heads to Starfall to take Daenerys. He kills Ashara (making sure the body isn't found so that people won't consider foul play), and then the Martells spread rumours that Ashara's child was stillborn. The infant Daenerys is then taken to Braavos (along with a lemon tree), where she is handed over to Darry and Viserys as both a ward, and as a substitute "princess". Oberyn signs the marriage pact, and then heads back to Dorne.

Of course, if you don't want Oberyn killing Ashara, it works just as well with her actually committing suicide.

Well there we have it. I'm probably as surprised with this result as you are! Are there any possible candidates I missed? Let me know in along with any reasons you think they may be viable!

[The Oily Black Stone]

I don't really buy into the theory that daenerys is anyone other than who she is, just cause too many secret targs and uh, reverse-secret targs would be too cheesy. The only good argument for it is if daenerys turns out to be rhaegar's legitimate heir, giving Viserys a good reason to lie about her parentage so that he is in turn more powerful.  Though there is some mysterious stuff about the house with the red door/lemon trees that strongly hints towards a dornish plot if anything.

Barristan comparing her looks to Ashara feels like a red herring to link her to Jon (whose mother was rumored to be Ashara/Wylla as well). Otherwise you would have to put more stock into Jorah passively comparing her looks  to his Hightower. Incidentally the Daynes and Hightowers both are in that reach/dornish  area that has a lot of old settlement. I think it's just the book's way to tell you what old valyrian features looked like.

I also read on a Reddit thread at some point how:

Daenerys = Daynes heiress

Or even Dayne Aerys

Preee cool

 

Edit: Benjen being someone's secret father  would be neatly foreshadowed by discussion with Jon about fathering some bastards prior to going the Night's Watch!

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

1 hour ago, HoboJed said:

Rhaegar: It would seem that Rhaegar was already polyamorous, so what is one more woman to love? Plus he may have wanted to increase his chances of fulfilling prophecy. But he was busy being smashed to pieces by Robert at this time...

No. There is no timeline problem with Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany. We know from Jaime's chapter in ASoS that Rhaegar was in King's Landing "Changes will be made" just before the Battle of the Trident, which matches the accepted date of Dany's conception. Furthermore, in George's SSM he specifically points out that Ashara would likely have been in King's Landing too, as Elia's handmaiden.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

You seem to list all the men in the Seven Kingdoms as potential fathers, but why only the highborn? Be creative!

[Good Guy Garlan]

45 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You seem to list all the men in the Seven Kingdoms as potential fathers, but why only the highborn? Be creative!

Tom o' Sevens has a lot of bastards lying around, and we know chicks dig the musicians...

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Look.  Viserys was with his mother at the time Dany was born.  He recalls they then left by ship, immediately.  No matter where they actually went, Viserys was basically with his sister from the moment she was born until the moment he died.  

This theory requires a baby swap without Viserys realizing it (unlikely given his age and the above) or Viserys had to be in on it (unlikely since he's an idiot and would have let something slip along the way).  

As for who Ashara slept with, I think "no one" might be more likely than anything.  The baby was just a rumor Barristan heard, an excuse to get Ashara out of KL so she could help her brother assist Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[norwaywolf123]

Aerys is the father of daenerys!

She was born 9 months after the sack which happened a while after (1 or 2 months after the battle at the trident so Rhaegar cant be the father!

[A spoon of knife and fork]

6 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Aerys is the father of daenerys!

She was born 9 months after the sack which happened a while after (1 or 2 months after the battle at the trident so Rhaegar cant be the father!

No.  Rhaella and Viserys left KL months before the sack.  Daenerys was likely conceived during the rape Jaime witnessed.

[Scorpion92]

Yeah, I start to believe more and more that Dany is Ned Stark's bastard daughter who never knew he had a child by Ashara because he broke her heart when he came to Starfall and she decided not to tell him about the child.

I am pretty sure the baby swap thing or whatever happened with Viserys will be explained down the line, we just don't know details.

Plus, it makes an awesome lot of sense when Jon and Dany clash in the Battle of the Dawn, one is a Targaryen trueborn who grew up as Stark bastard, another is Stark bastard who grew up as Targaryen trueborn. And this cousin reunion is the ultimate Song of Ice and Fire. Dany would be half "ice" (Stark) and half "fire" (Dayne) by bloodline. All her visions of "Great Wolf" outside her tent and her "drinking from the cup of ice" might connect to her true heritage.

And we need to keep in mind: all her life Dany CRAVED a place she could call home, a sense of belonging, like that feeling she had with "lemon tree in Braavos" and her time with Drogo. It would be fulfilling when she discovers her true family - her "pack".

And it kinda sets everything else into place: three headed dragon does not include Dany at all because she is not a dragon. I think Martin tells us who these three are by their color scheme: Drogon - Jon; Viserion - Jaime; Rhaegal - Cersei. The dragon blood flows through these three, and each one of them will have a tremendous impact on the overall storyline. That does NOT mean that Cersei, Jaime or Jon will be dragonriders, I think it is a clever trick by Martin to show us who real Targaryens are.

And symbolically, it makes sense Eddard Stark's children - Jon (he considers him a father), Dany, Sansa, Arya and Bran - will find a new Stark dynasty after winter left and spring comes. Eddard was the brief ruler on Iron Throne in the first book, and very honorable and just and did not care for Gregor Clegane's titles and lands when he threatened king's peace in Riverlands. So naturally, readers would like to see his descendants to become Westerosi rulers.

But the ending will be bittersweet, so I do not expect Jon and Dany survive the series. Dany will die in childbirth, that is a given to me, there are just too many textual foreshadowings for that. Jon will not survive as well, but I am less sure how it will happen. Resurrected people need to rest in peace after they fulfilled their part because spring arrived and winter is no more, so I wonder maybe Jon will travel to Isle of Faces to his brother Bran and pass away there, kinda like Arthur and Avalon.

The reason for that is I expect Sansa to rule new Westeros by the end of the story in the name of King Eddard Stark, the son of Jon and Dany, and newly established royal dynasty of House Stark. Sansa will be queen. It will be on her shoulders to rebuild Westeros after devastating winter. She and her council will build a new capital on Harrenhal grounds and be blessed by Bran who will lift the curse from the place. It is the "seat of kings" after all. Her council will include Tyrion - Chancellor/Prime Minister who will be overseeing the economy and finances of the realm; Arya - Head of Spy Agency; Samwell - Minister of Education; Gendry - Head of Police or organization similar to that which ensures peace and law obedience across the realm in the name of the king; Theon - High Priest of a completely new religion that will be created by the end of the series (it will be amalgam of all known religions); Davos - Head of Westerosi Navy and Grand Admiral or something along these lines, he will be operating from White Harbor which will be given to him courtesy of Jon. 

[norwaywolf123]

ridiculus just no no no noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[HoboJed]

8 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

No. There is no timeline problem with Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany. We know from Jaime's chapter in ASoS that Rhaegar was in King's Landing "Changes will be made" just before the Battle of the Trident, which matches the accepted date of Dany's conception. Furthermore, in George's SSM he specifically points out that Ashara would likely have been in King's Landing too, as Elia's handmaiden.

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Aerys is the father of daenerys!

She was born 9 months after the sack which happened a while after (1 or 2 months after the battle at the trident so Rhaegar cant be the father!

5 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

No.  Rhaella and Viserys left KL months before the sack.  Daenerys was likely conceived during the rape Jaime witnessed.

If I recall correctly the following statements are true (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Jon was born around the time of (or shortly after) the sacking of King's Landing.
2. Rhaella and Viserys fled KL as soon as they got word that the Battle at the Trident was lost and that Rhaegar was dead.
3. GRRM said there was an 8-9 month gap between Jon and Daenerys.

Given these priors, it would seem that there is only a very small window before the sacking where Daenerys could have been conceived (or she was a very late baby). I will concede that it is possible that Rhaegar could have done the deed in that time, but it is twisting the timelines quite a lot.

As for Ashara being in King's Landing, I'm pretty sure she was only one of Elia's lady companions in the first few years of Elia being married to Rhaegar. This means she was unlikely to be in King's Landing in that capacity around the time of the sacking (although it is of course possible she was there on other business.

 

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You seem to list all the men in the Seven Kingdoms as potential fathers, but why only the highborn? Be creative!

7 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Tom o' Sevens has a lot of bastards lying around, and we know chicks dig the musicians...

You are right... but I didn't even get all the highborn. I had to stop somewhere, or I would have been writing for weeks about a silly theory that is probably wrong.  One I left out that I probably should have included, for example, was Howland Reed. I know some people already think HR and AD are living together in Greywater Watch, and the "dragonfly among the reeds" quote from the Dunk and Egg books could possibly hint that a "Reed" would eventually fly on a dragon.

 

6 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Look.  Viserys was with his mother at the time Dany was born.  He recalls they then left by ship, immediately.  No matter where they actually went, Viserys was basically with his sister from the moment she was born until the moment he died.  

This theory requires a baby swap without Viserys realizing it (unlikely given his age and the above) or Viserys had to be in on it (unlikely since he's an idiot and would have let something slip along the way).  

As for who Ashara slept with, I think "no one" might be more likely than anything.  The baby was just a rumor Barristan heard, an excuse to get Ashara out of KL so she could help her brother assist Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I covered this in the previous thread. I agree that Viserys's actions are one of the biggest hits against a Daenerys is someone else theories. Where I disagree, however, is that a swap could not happen, or that Viserys couldn't be in on it.

My two daughters, born 4 years apart, look almost identical in pictures taken at the same ages. There is a surprising lack of variety in the way babies look at a given age (and conversely, their appearance changes quite dramatically short short time gaps). It's true that a sudden change with no explanation is likely to be noticed by Viserys, but if the original baby became ill, then a sudden recovery back to full health could easily be used to explain minor differences in appearance (given an ill baby would be kept separate from other children).

As for the other case of Viserys actually knowing: Viserys often refers to Dany as a "whore" or "slut," and to himself as "the last dragon." And his actions very rarely show much respect for his sister. All the "respect" from him that we have is from Daenerys's recollections of how he has treated her in the past. However, the counterpoint to that is that he does still keep referring to her as his sister when he is about to die, the point where he would most likely give up any charade.

 

4 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Yeah, I start to believe more and more that Dany is Ned Stark's bastard daughter who never knew he had a child by Ashara because he broke her heart when he came to Starfall and she decided not to tell him about the child.

I am pretty sure the baby swap thing or whatever happened with Viserys will be explained down the line, we just don't know details.

Like I said, I find N + A = D very hard to swallow (more so than other ? + A = D theories), as it tarnishes some of the beauty of R + L = J. If it were a Stark, Benjen would be the best story fit (travel logistics pending). I do, however, agree that Viserys's apparent obliviousness to a baby swap could be explained away, as discussed above (although I do concede it is the biggest issue with these theories, so shouldn't just be dismissed as not important).

One last thing, I just wanted to re-iterate that I'm not claiming that O + A = D is fact. I'm simply pulling a line of thread to see what unravels. I also accept that other people may find the Viserys issue (or other issues) too hard to overcome, but please understand that you are talking opinions rather than facts, so show some respect to others, even if you believe their ideas don't quite work. And if you think the facts completely disallow something, then explain why that is, rather than just mock people. It's possible that you both have different ideas of what is possible, and will never agree, but still be civil about it.

[norwaywolf123]

9 minutes ago, HoboJed said:

Like I said, I find N + A = D very hard to swallow (more so than other ? + A = D theories), as it tarnishes some of the beauty of R + L = J. If it were a Stark, Benjen would be the best story fit (travel logistics pending). I do, however, agree that Viserys's apparent obliviousness to a baby swap could be explained away, as discussed above (although I do concede it is the biggest issue with these theories, so shouldn't just be dismissed as not important).

One last thing, I just wanted to re-iterate that I'm not claiming that O + A = D is fact. I'm simply pulling a line of thread to see what unravels. I also accept that other people may find the Viserys issue (or other issues) too hard to overcome, but please understand that you are talking opinions rather than facts, so show some respect to others, even if you believe their ideas don't quite work. And if you think the facts completely disallow something, then explain why that is, rather than just mock people. It's possible that you both have different ideas of what is possible, and will never agree, but still be civil about it.

O+A=Daenerys?

O+Ashara=Daenerys?

O+Aerys=Daenerys?

Who is O?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_characters#O

Could it be?

- Olenna Tyrell 

- Oberyn Martell

- Orton Merryweather "The real reason he was expelles"

- Ormund Yronwood

- Oswell Whent "Maybe Jaime was not the first kingsguard to have a affair with the queen?"

Just kidding but who is O?

If it had been Oberyn the Martells would probably have played a bigger role in Viserys and Daenerys upbringing. And she would most likely look diffrent. Even tho Tyene Sand takes after her mother in coloring.

[HoboJed]

7 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

O+A=Daenerys?

O+Ashara=Daenerys?

O+Aerys=Daenerys?

Who is O?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_characters#O

Could it be?

- Olenna Tyrell 

- Oberyn Martell

- Orton Merryweather "The real reason he was expelles"

- Ormund Yronwood

- Oswell Whent "Maybe Jaime was not the first kingsguard to have a affair with the queen?"

Just kidding but who is O?

If it had been Oberyn the Martells would probably have played a bigger role in Viserys and Daenerys upbringing. And she would most likely look diffrent. Even tho Tyene Sand takes after her mother in coloring.

The O is indeed Oberyn. Read the OP.

[The Oily Black Stone]

The thing about these baby-switchout conspiracies is, there becomes more wiggle room in the timeline since the date of birth isnt accurate. For example, Jon Snow is frequently said to seem older than his years, because "bastards grow up faster," which may point to him being older than claimed by Ned to make him more plausibly his war bastard.

[Scorpion92]

If Dany is indeed Ashara's daughter, then the only two candidates for father are Starks: either Brandon or Ned, because there is no evidence whatsoever that Ashara had any romantic connection with Rhaegar, Oberyn, etc. Like seriously, every time Ashara is mentioned, a Stark always comes up with it, I don't know how people come up with these random guesses.

And given how close and loyal Brandon was to his siblings, I would never imagine him doing such a dick move to mess with a girl his younger brother is infatuated with. So I don't believe Brandon was romantically involved with Ashara. That leaves Ned as the only candidate for Ashara's baby.

The circumstances set them apart, with Brandon killed and Ned's duty as new Lord of Winterfell to marry Catelyn instead as well as present Jon as his bastard thanks to his promise to dying sister. Add the fact that he most likely killed Ashara's brother Arthur, there are too much obstacles to their happiness, so I could see why Ashara would refuse to tell him about their child. She was heartbroken after all, according to Edric Dayne, so I do not rule out the possibility that she told Ned she was pregnant from somebody else, to hurt him a little bit as he did her. That is why whenever Daenerys is mentioned in the first book, Ned feels some guilt and remembers the promises that haunted him for several years.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The idea that Dany is anyone but Aerys & Rhaella's child is absurd. Aerys had her constantly watched even going so far as to have septa's sleep in her bed when he was not there to prevent any chance of her being unfaithful. 

We know that Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone just before the sack of KL, and that Aerys had sex with her the night before she and Viserys left. Where she then sat out 9 months of pregnancy, which he (Viserys) was witness to. And That he was with Dany from then on until the day he died. 

Stop with the un-feasible theories ...please. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, The Oily Black Stone said:

The thing about these baby-switchout conspiracies is, there becomes more wiggle room in the timeline since the date of birth isnt accurate. For example, Jon Snow is frequently said to seem older than his years, because "bastards grow up faster," which may point to him being older than claimed by Ned to make him more plausibly his war bastard.

If only we didn't have that pesky SSM which tells us that he is 8-9 months older than Dany, and then gives us her birth as 9 months after the sack of KL. Which put's Jon's birth at somewhere between the sack of KL And the ToJ. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 23/4/2016 at 4:55 PM, HoboJed said:

So, who are the main candidates?

There is only one. Aerys II Targaryen. 

 There is no proof in the books that Rhaella had cheated on Aerys with either Oberyn, Benjen or a Hightower and there is no logical reason why Ashara's daughter being passed as Rhaella's which means that she would be in danger for her whole life, somehow no one noticed that a baby didn’t came out from Rhaella’s body or how Ashara’s daughter with a non Targaryen would had passed as a Targaryen.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Gregor Clegane

 

Gregor = Grigori (Dragon's Dogma)

 

Grigori = Red Dragon

 

Red = Fire and Blood

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Thinking the Baratheon look is Godly potent is actually a good trap...