Possible marriage

[Le Cygne]

Sansa finds Sandor making her sing with his dagger romantic. That's what matters to me and I am not going to pretend this is not wild and wonderful Westeros, where a top 40 song is:

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid 

I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade 

I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade

YES, that is about SanSan, the author has Dunk, who was the champ at Ashford, swap that city in while remembering the song while digging a grave on a slope, later Sandor, who was the champ at Sansa's father's tourney (both by default as true knights), digs a grave on a slope. Alayne is from Gulltown.

The song is sung right before Sandor reappears and starts mooning about Sansa and her song all across the Riverlands. And meanwhile Sansa is remembering Sandor's dagger dick pushing into her and singing for him and she makes up a kiss, because that's all that was missing from their song. 

And she dreams of him naked in her bed that she calls the marriage bed, and he is bigger than Tyrion, because oh yes, she is looking at Sandor's dick and this one she wants... and oh yes, what brought that on, why, it was his dagger dick... then she finds out the other meaning of a song, and oh yes, dogs are barking...

And she is in bed with a hound like that night, the hound is waiting for her in her bed and even kisses her (licks her face) and she pets him (caresses him)... Blackwater callback, yet again... she keeps remembering that night over and over and over again and the only sadness she associates with it is that he left her!

After she wondered where he was and heard his voice and imagined he was there to rescue her from a rapist because that's what he does, protects and comforts her, he is the go to guy she thinks of this way... because HE WON'T HURT HER and ... whew, Sandor is everywhere for this chick and he can do no wrong...

She compares every man to him, thinks of him all the damn time... way back in book 1 this began, when he gave Sandor the Beast's lines. This is a very sexy Beauty and the Beast story, and she is super turned on by one Sandor Clegane aka the Hound aka her Beast. She likes his ferocity! This is her kind of romance. 

Good heavens, the girl has got it bad for the guy, it's all over the pages.

And it all comes back to Sandor and his dagger dick, making her sing a song, and there was indeed sweetness associated with that moment, the prayer for him, and this is Beauty and the Beast, she was afraid at first, hence the father and beast symbolic tug of war, she wants the Beast but is afraid, but the fear is excitement.

He turned Sansa on so much, seconds later she instinctively caresses his face, then she symbolically gets under him/his bloody cloak and bells boom from the hills and hollows (classic, see for example Far From the Madding Crowd, the Hollow in the Ferns chapter and no Frank was not trying to kill her with his blade in that chapter, either, and it ended in a kiss)...

See, the dagger was important, Sansa's ultimate response was important, there are lots of other stories with the dagger symbolically turning on the woman and it is meant to be positive and mutual (hence Sansa's hollows booming from corner to corner...)

But see the links on my profile for the story he is basing this on, La Belle et la Bete, the Ebert review spells it out, it's meant to be symbolically "orgasmic"... Sansa is a couple of months from 13 and in Westeros not a child, the author said flowering = adult over and over again but you don't need that, listen to her, listen to Sansa.

She is lying in bed at night after he goes, obsessing about him as always, but this time it's clearly sexual, the undercurrent has come to the surface. She can feel his lips pressing on hers, she doesn't want a dull guy, if he had said wanna come with me, no, OK see ya, nope, not enough ferocity, Sansa wants her Beast.

Sandor made Sansa of Westeros happy, get her a dog, she'll be happier, and who knows, maybe they will make their thing, sing me a song little bird, a la Asha and Qarl and his dagger dick. But here is the big thing, this is mutual and consensual, and she feels empowered by this connection, on a deep level.

She is responding to him and he is responding to her. And quite frankly, I think if she said jump he would say how high, she is driving this thing, it's her story. Why do you think he goes away while all of this reaches a fever pitch, then comes back. And yes, the show established he is more thoughtful, and sent him north. 

It's a sexual awakening story, he brings out the beast in her, aka sexually awakens her, hence all the Lady and Hound references, this is very much instinctual and part of who she is, that she is respondng to this particular man. And I do think she will be the one to jump him, he won't know what hit him. 

This is all classic stuff, and this is Westeros, and this part of the story belongs to Sansa, and he made her happy. The only thing she regrets is that he left her and that's the same thing he regrets, they both say he left me/I left her. And that was his regret in the show, too, he expresses this several times.

Now, they shamelessly use her for a prop on the show, but they had a lot of scenes together and they keep dropping BatB hints for her and him, and they quite obviously brought him back more thoughtful but still fierce, had him whip out his dick, and sent him her way.

I think they went there, and are still going there. I miss the dagger scene, but they replaced it with a nice parallel with Cocteau, and they spelled out why they changed it, they said they wanted to bring him on gentle. It's also interesting that they are saving this for last. I think they will let her be happier with her dog...

Now, want to talk to me about any of that, talk about the story and not me.

[Karmarni]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

because the sexual component is the symbolic one, and the characters are not really aware of that, but the author is.

Yes! That was an interesting part of it. 

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

And that the reason they didn't include it in the show is because the show didn't want to be so controversial.

Lol! If the reason they didn't want it to be controversial was the reason they didn't include the dagger and the song (which the show runners have remained mute on) then there's far more reason to assume that since they wanted it to be less controversial, they intended for the audience to toy with the idea of the two characters in their minds, to see them as potentially meeting later. And why have Sandor meet Arya anyway? The little sister? That was an intentional meetup by GRRM and one that was used to explore Sandor's character through Arya's eyes and see him in a different light. Some of it was good, some of it was not so good. Welcome to ASOIAF, right?

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Some people find it uncomplicatedly romantic

Blackwater, as written by the author, is complicated. The show, lots more uncomplicated. I think GRRM's book version was outstandingly written, "bells booming" and all. One of the most memorable moments of ACoK. I can still recall after all this time how my cheeks burned at reading it. How I was surprised, and yet not surprised at the way it happened. That he was there for her. That she thought he meant to kiss her. That she closed her eyes. Me: No, no Sansa! Don't close your eyes, he hates that; he wants you to look at him! That he says, "Look at me!" They were like two ships that passed in the night there. They were meant to have this interaction, planned by the author, so that it could be made into --- the unkiss memory, the "he took a song and a kiss and all he left me was a bloody cloak", the dream of Sandor getting in her bed, the "you do know what goes on in a marriage bed, don't you?, with Sansa thinking of "Tyrion and the Hound, and how he kissed her." That's what Sansa did with it. She made it romantic. Now why, the reader asks. Does it just fizzle out there? Reading comprehension says, no, that's not the end. Sansa's memories of the Hound are important and they don't exist in a vacuum. He's sorry he left her. He meant to take her (with him). He's sobbing, for heaven's sake, about her. Three times he cries. Who cries like that in the novels? No one. Just the Hound. Sue he's been harsh, he's said some tough things. He delivers some dialogue with empty threats. And they are empty. Both Sansa and Arya say they know they are. But he cries twice over a girl.

So Blackwater is a turning point for Sandor. He leaves KL and runs into Arya and all that ensues to lead him to his "death bed", just as the Beast dies in BatB, so does the Hound, books and show. Metaphorically, he has changed. Not the white knight, but the purer version of who he wanted to be. For Sansa, it's a turning point too. One in which she has been left to suffer her fate: marry Tyrion and be kidnapped by her 'father', Littlefinger. 

So it's not an uncomplicated moment. It's fraught with drama and tension. And it begs to be redone. To, as the Mother's Hymn says, "let them know a better day." I, for one, think they will.

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I think the show runners were concerned that taking their interactions to that point would freak out some people so they left it out.

But they did film it. They had the dagger and the song. They just didn't use it.

1 hour ago, TepidHands said:

If you're actually defending the showrunners as avoiding controversy, the same showrunners who had the same virgin teenage character we've been discussing stripped, thrown onto a bed, and raped -- after her rapist announces she's about to "become a woman" -- well, Seven Hells, you have a far different definition of controversy than I do. The concept of restraint seems rather foreign to them, IMHO.

This show. It plays to controversy. And shock. And surprise twist. And certainly Sansa being "OK" with Sandor Clegane at this point in the show will be a "surprise twist" that somehow inherently feels OK when it happens.

I just don't think the show runners care all that much about character growth and their personal interactions. It's not made for the BBC. They care about big production values (and dragons). So giving their Sansa a 'meaty' story (to them, cause I like the Vale story) was more important than playing intrigue with Littlefinger and hosting a tourney. And saving Sansa's interactions with the Hound to be when he almost has to be the one to tell her Littlefinger is their arch villain, and have her choose the Hound (to Littlefinger's dismay) over LF himself will be a neat little twist that a visual audience will love.

And then she'll kill Littlefinger.

[Darksky]

Waiting for SanSan is like waiting for Lady Stoneheart. Not gonna happen. There is gonna be a lot of saltiness to go around next year, but  there is still going to be A Dream of Book 6 to look forward to.

I find it funny how some people consider Petyr/Aiden x Sansa/Sophie creepy but not Sandor/Rory x Sansa/Sophie. Both make my stomach churn. No worries, if Sansa turns into a traitor (well more than she's now), she's not long for the world. I don't see a place for her in the endgame. I have a hunch they will kill one more Stark before they're done. 

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Sansa finds Sandor making her sing with his dagger romantic. That's what matters to me and I am not going to pretend this is not wild and wonderful Westeros, where a top 40 song is:

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid 

I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade 

 I'll make her my love and rest in the shade

YES, that is about SanSan, the author has Dunk, who was the champ at Ashford, swap that city in while remembering the song while digging a grave on a slope, later Sandor, who was the champ at Sansa's father's tourney (both by default as true knights), digs a grave on a slope. Alayne is from Gulltown.

The song is sung right before Sandor reappears and starts mooning about Sansa and her song all across the Riverlands. And meanwhile Sansa is remembering Sandor's dagger dick pushing into her and singing for him and she makes up a kiss, because that's all that was missing from their song. 

And she dreams of him naked in her bed that she calls the marriage bed, and he is bigger than Tyrion, because oh yes, she is looking at Sandor's dick and this one she wants... and oh yes, what brought that on, why, it was his dagger dick... then she finds out the other meaning of a song, and oh yes, dogs are barking...

And she is in bed with a hound like that night, the hound is waiting for her in her bed and even kisses her (licks her face) and she pets him (caresses him) ... Blackwater callback, yet again... she keeps remembering that night over and over and over again and the only sadness she associates with it is that he left her!

After she wondered where he was and heard his voice and imagined he was there to rescue her from a rapist because that's what he does, protects and comforts her, he is the go to guy she thinks of this way... because HE WON'T HURT HER and ... whew, Sandor is everywhere for this chick and he can do no wrong...

She compares every man to him, thinks of him all the damn time... way back in book 1 this began, when he gave Sandor the Beast's lines. This is a very sexy Beauty and the Beast story, and she is super turned on by one Sandor Clegane aka the Hound aka her Beast. She likes his ferocity! This is her kind of romance. 

Good heavens, the girl has got it bad for the guy, it's all over the pages.

And it all comes back to Sandor and his dagger dick, making her sing a song, and there was indeed sweetness associated with that moment, the prayer for him, and this is Beauty and the Beast, she was afraid at first, hence the father and beast symbolic tug of war, she wants the Beast but is afraid, but the fear is excitement.

He turned Sansa on so much, seconds later she instinctively caresses his face, then she symbolically gets under him/his bloody cloak and bells boom from the hills and hollows (classic, see for example Far From the Madding Crowd, the Hollows in the Fern chapter and no Frank was not trying to kill her with his blade in that chapter, either, and it ended in a kiss)...

See, the dagger was important, Sansa's ultimate response was important, there are lots of other stories with the dagger symbolically turning on the woman and it is meant to be positive and mutual (hence Sansa's hollows booming from corner to corner...)

But see the links on my profile for the story he is basing this on, La Belle et la Bete, the Ebert review spells it out, it's meant to be symbolically "orgasmic"... Sansa is a couple of months from 13 and in Westeros not a child, the author said flowering = adult over and over again but you don't need that, listen to her, listen to Sansa.

She is lying in bed at night after he goes, obsessing about him as always, but this time it's clearly sexual, the undercurrent has come to the surface. She can feel his lips pressing on hers, she doesn't want a dull guy, if he had said wanna come with me, no, OK see ya, nope, not enough ferocity, Sansa wants her Beast.

Sandor made Sansa of Westeros happy, get her a dog, she'll be happier, and who knows, maybe they will make their thing, sing me a song littke bird, a la Asha and Qarl and his dagger dick. But here is the big thing, this is mutual and consensual, and she feels empowered by this connection, on a deep level.

She is responding to him and he is responding to her. And quite frankly, I think if she said jump he would say how high, she is driving this thing, it's her story. Why do you think he goes away while all of this reaches a fever pitch, then comes back. And yes, the show established he is more thoughtful, and sent him north. 

It's a sexual awakening story, he brings out the beast in her, aka sexually awakens her, hence all the Lady and Hound references, this is very much instinctual and part of who she is, that she is respondng to this particular man. And I do think she will be the one to jump him, he won't know what hit him. 

This is all classic stuff, and this is Westeros, and this part of the story belongs to Sansa, and he made her happy. The only thing she regrets is that he left her and that's the same thing he regrets, they both say he left me/I left her. And that was his regret in the show, too, he expresses this several times.

Now, they shamelessly use her for a prop on the show, but they had a lot of scenes together and they keep dropping BatB hints for her and him, and they quite obviously brought him back more thoughtful but still fierce, had him whip out his dick, and sent him her way.

I think they went there, and are still going there. I miss the dagger scene, but they replaced it with a nice parallel with Cocteau, and they spelled out why they changed it, they said they wanted to bring him on gentle. It's also interesting that they are saving this for last. I think they will let her be happier with her dog...

Now, want to talk to me about any of that, talk about the story and not me. 

Amazing. I love your essay. Very well done and a lot of examples that many people would have missed but that exists. Superb.

[OldGimletEye]

So, the latest forecast, based off of Jon smile data is Sansa dying?

Interesting.

[Dolorous Gabe]

36 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Waiting for SanSan is like waiting for Lady Stoneheart. Not gonna happen. There is gonna be a lot of saltiness to go around next year, but  there is still going to be A Dream of Book 6 to look forward to.

I find it funny how some people consider Petyr/Aiden x Sansa/Sophie creepy but not Sandor/Rory x Sansa/Sophie. Both make my stomach churn. No worries, if Sansa turns into a traitor (well more than she's now), she's not long for the world. I don't see a place for her in the endgame. I have a hunch they will kill one more Stark before they're done. 

Your stomach is entitled to be churned by both, yet there is a clear difference between each pairing. The former is unrequited while the latter has strong supporting evidence that it is absolutely requited.

[Le Cygne]

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Amazing. I love your essay. Very well done and a lot of examples that many people would have missed but that exists. Superb.

Fixed a lot of typos, on a phone.  

He really did put a lot of heart and soul into this story. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, TepidHands said:

If you're actually defending the showrunners as avoiding controversy, the same showrunners who had the same virgin teenage character we've been discussing stripped, thrown onto a bed, and raped -- after her rapist announces she's about to "become a woman" -- well, Seven Hells, you have a far different definition of controversy than I do. The concept of restraint seems rather foreign to them, IMHO.

No one expects you to like Ramsey after that.

they want you to like the hound.  So they don't show him doing what he did in the books at the blackwater.

[willowbark]

6 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Regarding San-San, like I said in the "Lady Sansa Clegane" thread, I, personally, have a strong visceral negative reaction to the scene with Sandor Clegane and Sansa at the Battle of the Blackwater in the books. I think that GRRM knew that many people would have this reaction and that it would be a controversial relationship, with many people considering it sick while others personally find it romantic.  I have a really hard time understanding finding romance in a scene where a huge drunk guy pushes a tiny underage girl down on to a bed while holding a knife and demands she sing a song to him.  But, I do understand that he was, in essence, recreating a very controversial version of a common trope as outlined above by @Le Le Cygne and @Meera of Tarth.  That sort of sex-tinged violent thread has been highly fetishized in historically so it made sense to include this kidn of stuff in a dark fantasy.

As for the show - like many characters and situations, the showrunners have decided to skirt or altogether avoid some of the more... uncomfortable... moments of characterization.  Including this one.  The only thing that was kept is that the hound is drunk and shows up in Sansa's room.  It was vaguely creepy but, IMO, not sexual in any way.  And most of their interactions were the same in my view.  There was a big brotherly feel if anything.  People's attempts to find symbolism in the show interactions  in lieu of anything obviously romantic/sexual to me seem to be biiiig reaches.  With regard to Sansa, the Hound appears to someone who is trying to do some damage control, to help someone in need.  The Hound, in general, is a darker person in the book - show version has less rage, less emotionally unstable, less internal conflict, less hate for others and less self-loathing.  

For me, when I read the books, and also when I watched the show, I never saw any romance with them.  I took it as the Hound being angry at Sansa for being innocent (like he once was), and being torn between wanting to destroy that innocence (as was done to him), and protecting that innocence (since he wasn't able to hold onto his own).  

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Darksky said:

Waiting for SanSan is like waiting for Lady Stoneheart. Not gonna happen. There is gonna be a lot of saltiness to go around next year, but  there is still going to be A Dream of Book 6 to look forward to.

I find it funny how some people consider Petyr/Aiden x Sansa/Sophie creepy but not Sandor/Rory x Sansa/Sophie. Both make my stomach churn. No worries, if Sansa turns into a traitor (well more than she's now), she's not long for the world. I don't see a place for her in the endgame. I have a hunch they will kill one more Stark before they're done. 

This is the difference:

44 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Your stomach is entitled to be churned by both, yet there is a clear difference between each pairing. The former is unrequited while the latter has strong supporting evidence that it is absolutely requited.

Sansa will decide!

[Bear Claw]

32 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

No one expects you to like Ramsey after that.

they want you to like the hound.  So they don't show him doing what he did in the books at the blackwater.

That    is a good point. They have cleaned up a few characters like Tyrion to make them more appealing. I really don't care for that. They should give us the characters from the book. I think Sansa does express  feelings for him, but I am not sure what purpose they serve. It seems like she is so desperate for some champion/hero that she is willing to make one up. I don't know where it will go in the books, but show Sansa seems far to practical/mature to be interested in Sandor now. I just don't see the relationship dynamic anymore. I think they would really have to start brand new for romance to take place. 

[Le Cygne]

Or they could build on all the scenes and setup... now that she's more like him, and he's more like her...

[Bear Claw]

I think the show is hinting at Sansa and Jon. I noticed an overlap of the Mother of Dragons theme when Sansa begs Theon for help. Then the themes they play when she finds out  Rickon and Bran are alive (from Theon) and the scene with Jon and Sansa making peace on the battlements sounds like some of the Mother of Dragons theme (the first part with the violins). It is very similar anyway. 

[UnAzor]

6 hours ago, Darksky said:

Waiting for SanSan is like waiting for Lady Stoneheart. Not gonna happen. There is gonna be a lot of saltiness to go around next year, but  there is still going to be A Dream of Book 6 to look forward to.

I find it funny how some people consider Petyr/Aiden x Sansa/Sophie creepy but not Sandor/Rory x Sansa/Sophie. Both make my stomach churn. No worries, if Sansa turns into a traitor (well more than she's now), she's not long for the world. I don't see a place for her in the endgame. I have a hunch they will kill one more Stark before they're done. 

Amen

[Future Null Infinity]

9 hours ago, Darksky said:

if Sansa turns into a traitor (well more than she's now), she's not long for the world. I don't see a place for her in the endgame. I have a hunch they will kill one more Stark before they're done. 

I didn't know that the character Sansa saving Jon and Winterfell from Ramsay in the story made her a traitor, maybe the writers must stop making her interacting with your favourite character or maybe I'm watching another show and for that hunch, my sweet summer child, some people have that hunch for six years now and after each season they say "maybe next season"

[Woman of War]

16 hours ago, Karmarni said:

 

No one's going to convince me that the show is not going to do SanSan.  I am a believer that the tone, and that's the most important thing to me, the tone, (thanks for bringing that up and making that clear @Meera of Tarth) and it's in the show and it's definitely in the books, is setting up a future meeting between Sandor and Sansa. ......

But many people, like me, do not doubt that Sansa and Sandor might meet again and that there might be some interaction of plot importance. Of course they could meet before all is said and done, why not.  But I doubt the story will go the way you hope. Actually we all may be wrong with our different little hopes  

 I do not believe that a love story in the traditional happy ending manner will be set up. Sansa and Sandor might even turn out to be on different sides of loyalty or one may die because of the other. Sansa may try to exploit Sandor's emotions and Sandor may refuse, Sandor may be torn between Arya and Sansa etc. If something like SanSan happens, if these two characters meet again  in a storyline of their own I expect tragedy, not a final "happy ending" with both of them disappearing into blissful story oblivion. 

But I think Sandor has returned to be a supporting character to Arya's, not Sansa's story, an interaction that has fascinated me, and I guess many other readers and viewers, much more than his less complex relationship with Sansa.



 

[Moirainee]

2 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I didn't know that the character Sansa saving Jon and Winterfell from Ramsay in the story made her a traitor, maybe the writers must stop making her interacting with your favourite character or maybe I'm watching another show and for that hunch, my sweet summer child, some people have that hunch for six years now and after each season they say "maybe next season"

well she betrayed him.she didn't tell him the vale army.D&D and sophie turner said sansa is jealous of him.I think she will betray him again

[Darksky]

@Woman of War agreed. Think Sandor was brought back with the sole purpose of bringing Arya back from the precipice of darkness and insanity. Their platonic relationship is more developed and organic than whatever Sansa and Sandor have been and may ever be. Arya and Sandor's interactions were one of the high points of GOT. I don't see him taking part in the endgame conflict, fighting the undead army. What is he going to do? Fall into servitude to King Jon? He had already served under two Kings and he abandoned one of them. What other role could there be for him? If he does reach the North, he is likely to go straight to The Wall with the Brotherhood. 

[Future Null Infinity]

40 minutes ago, Moirainee said:

well she betrayed him.she didn't tell him the vale army.D&D and sophie turner said sansa is jealous of him.I think she will betray him again

Sorry, can you give a scene from the show that support your claim and show Sansa telling someone that she betrayed Jon?

[Darksky]

How about all those scenes in which Sansa fails to tell Jon about the incoming reinforcements? It was crucial intel that would have helped Jon with his battle strategy. Hundreds of deaths could have been avoided if Sansa had just said the words. According to the writers and the actress she stayed mum because of inability to deal with her trust issues and her need for validation. That was more important to her than the lives of those fighting for her. What is it if not sabotage? Going back, she also betrayed Arya and Ned.