The Four major characters

[delspark]

I was digging around in ASOIAF wiki when I came upon the chapter count.

Dany had 31 chapters

Jon had 42 chapters

Arya had 33 chapters

Tyrion had 47 chapters

None other character crossed a 25 mark.

Does this mean these four are the protagonists and not just Jon/Dany are heroes? who will stay till the end?

Surprisingly Catelyn had 25 chapters, Sansa 24 chapters and Bran 21 chapters.

So does this make them the sidekicks?

Atleast Cat POV included Robb, Sansa included Joffrey so their chapter count might be fair but what about Bran?

Apart from Jon/Dany winning IT and destroying Others,

Tyrion becoming heir to CR and Dany's companion dragon rider,

Arya becoming assassin,

Bran a great predictor

What other roles may they play?

 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, delspark said:

Does this mean these four are the protagonists and not just Jon/Dany are heroes? who will stay till the end?

I believe that: Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa and Jaime are the *heroes* in their own story. They will all work to save the world but from different position.

[delspark]

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I believe that: Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa and Jaime are the *heroes* in their own story. They will all work to save the world but from different position.

Jamie? Apart from trying to rectify his deeds I cant see what heroic role he can play.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, delspark said:

Jamie? Apart from trying to rectify his deeds I cant see what heroic role he can play.

He has already being really heroic already. Everyone has a role to play and Jamie's role may be the Arthur Dayne of his generation, Anduin Lothar of ASOIAF.

[Blade of Sunlight]

I'm not sure chapter count can be directly correlated with importance. On one hand,  Bran has vastly less chapters because his voyage is trough much less dense territory and does not intercept important events, when he does meet the three eye raven he has few chapters so as not to reveal too much of the plot, also its the character GRRM finds harder to write, on the other hand,  Tyrion is in areas dense with events and is GRRM's favourite character and the easiest for him to write. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

53 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

I'm not sure chapter count can be directly correlated with importance. On one hand,  Bran has vastly less chapters because his voyage is trough much less dense territory and does not intercept important events, when he does meet the three eye raven he has few chapters so as not to reveal too much of the plot, also its the character GRRM finds harder to write, on the other hand,  Tyrion is in areas dense with events and is GRRM's favourite character and the easiest for him to write. 

You make good sense in pointing out that Bran’s viewpoint is one Martin has said is hard for him to write, and the other things you said, too.

Technically speaking, however, there’s no “three-eyed raven” in the books.  Bloodraven is styled as a “three-eyed crow”, which is important because its is the wildings who call men of the Night’s Watch “crows”.   As a once (-and-future?) Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, Brynden is clearly a “crow” not a raven.  His portrayal in Bran’s visions as having three eyes is probably a call-out to the mystical “third eye” of seers, which he certainly is.

That said, crow and raven are common names used for various sorts of corvids (that is, birds from the Corvus genus), and it may not be worthwhile trying to tease out much literary distinction between the two of them.  

Still, I’m disappointed that this was gratuitously changed in the HBO adaptation for no clear gain nor obvious reason.  You’ll notice that legendary actor Max von Sydow still wears his black Night’s Watch cloak in the HBO series: apparently a crow’s a crow’s a crow, even when he’s a three-eyed raven. ; – )

Bloodraven’s Bloody Random Raven Connections 

Although his lady mother’s sigil was that of House Blackwood of Raventree Hall, as Hand of the King the legitimized bastard prince Brynden took up a modified version of Aegon his father’s Targaryen dragon sigil, choosing a white dragon on a black field for his albinism, instead of a red dragon on a black field like his brother Daeron’s or an inverted black dragon on a red field like his brother Daemon's. So he wanted to present his standard as a dragon not a raven on the battlefield, probably to convey his legitimacy as a ruling dragon.

However, his famous company of longbowmen were called the Raven’s Teeth.  Since they were Brynden’s teeth, he can be seen to have been a raven.  It's pretty obvious he was a raven for Lord Mormont, too.

All characters who go by “Bran-like” names — like Bran the Builder, Brandon Stark, Brynden Tully, Bryndyn Rivers — cannot help but bring to mind that bran means raven in Welsh just as bren means raven in Gaelic.  (And bryn means hill in Welsh, Martin's semi-random respelling philosophies notwithstanding.)

Celtic and Norse mythologies are both rich in crows and ravens, from Brân the Blessed in the Welsh Mabinogion who could restore the dead to live, to Odin’s ravens Huginn and Muninn (read: "thought" and "memory") in the Elder Edda, to the Morrígan who was an Irish crow goddess of death, to the raven Thorin spoke with, Roäc son of Carc.

[LordImp]

Jon , Tyrion , Dany and Bran. While Sansa , Arya and Jaime plays very important roles. 

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, delspark said:

I was digging around in ASOIAF wiki when I came upon the chapter count.

Dany had 31 chapters

Jon had 42 chapters

Arya had 33 chapters

Tyrion had 47 chapters

None other character crossed a 25 mark.

Does this mean these four are the protagonists and not just Jon/Dany are heroes? who will stay till the end?

Surprisingly Catelyn had 25 chapters, Sansa 24 chapters and Bran 21 chapters.

So does this make them the sidekicks?

Atleast Cat POV included Robb, Sansa included Joffrey so their chapter count might be fair but what about Bran?

Part of the problem here is that AFFC/ADWD effectively sidelines the Stark children.  Sansa, Arya, and Bran have a total of 11 chapters, less than Arya had in ASOS alone!  Their stories are effectively transitional so they get short shrift.  These two books are primarily wrapping up old stories and setting up new ones.  If you look at the chapter counts through ASOS, I think you get a better idea of who is important:

Tyrion  35

Jon  29

Arya  28

Dany  21

Sansa  21

Bran  18

Nobody still alive has more than 10  (Lady Stoneheart doesn't count)

These characters are sometimes called the "big six".  While Jon and Dany are probably going to play the biggest role in the end, the other four are important characters in their own right, and will play a big role in the remaining story.

2 hours ago, delspark said:

Apart from Jon/Dany winning IT and destroying Others,

Tyrion becoming heir to CR and Dany's companion dragon rider,

Arya becoming assassin,

Bran a great predictor

What other roles may they play?

Actually, none of this is certain.  I expect Jon and Dany to play a big role against the Others (Jon especially), but I don't know about the IT.  I think they will both have characteristics of AAR/TPtwP.

Tywin is a kinslayer so his right to CR is in question.  He may or may not be a dragonrider.  Given his knowledge, he will be important in their development and use as weapons, though.  I actually think he will remain married to Sansa, and they will become a powerful political team,, but I seem to be alone in that belief.

Arya will never become an assassin.  She is not sufficiently trained, and given the time scale involved, never will be.  She may well become a spy, and might even kill people.  She has a big wolfpack that will likely be useful against the Others.   She could also play a political role.  She is charismatic, and cares about the welfare of other people, and is, after all, a Stark.

Bran will be involved in magic, but I don't know if he will be able to predict stuff, or merely see what is and has been happening.  In any case, to be useful, he will need to be able to communicate effectively, and that is likely to require that he leaves his cave.

 

[HouseFossoway]

Cersei I would say is one of the major characters. She had the most chapters in Book 4, and had more chapters than Arya does if just looking at book 4 and 5.

[Elisabetta Duò]

GRRM himself told us who the main characters are.. according to GRRM's famous letter about ASOIAF, he wanted to follow:

- Jon

- Arya

- Tyrion

- Bran

- Daenerys

in the transition from the old wolrd to the new one. Which automatically makes them the most important characters, regadless to the n. of chapters each of them got and regardless of them being heroes, flawed heroes, anti-heroes, anti-villains or villains.

Reading the final version of the books, though, it seems that other characters might have become more important during the years than he originally thought… it seems he decided to cut a more important role for

- Sansa

for example, who in the original plan was 100% doomed, imo, while I can see her having chances of survival now ...

It would be interesting to know exactly how much he followed his original storyline. He said he kept the original endgame and generically speaking, the main characters endgames, but it's reasonable to assume many things have changed.

He made Jamie less evil than his original self, he decided to kill Catelyn who was probably to have a bigger role in the first version of the books, we still don't know if Tyrion will recover or if he will use his power only to seek revenge, we don't know if Littlefinger was included in the original plot or if GRRM 'transferred' to him some of the villain things he originally wanted other characters to do. He called Tyrion 'the villain' of the story in an old 90s' interview and said something along the line of 'oh, what mischief he could do if he could fly' (it might have been a generic reference about the fact he's a flawed hero / anti-hero or mean that he planned to turn Tyrion into a villain when he gets to ride a dragon after he lost everything he cared about). At the same time, he basically described Jamie as a villain in the original letter, so who knows…maybe he transferred to Cersei what was Jamie's role.

Also, GRRM initially planned a 'deadly rivalry' between Tyrion and Jon about Arya, for they both fell for her but Tyrion's love was unrequited (which might even result in Tyrion's death in the end.. or not.. we don't know because the last chapters has been blackened): now I think - well, it would be more honest to say 'I hope' (both because it would be too 'fan fiction style' and because Tyrion is my fave) - that he decided against the Jon-Arya-Tyrion triangle: an hint would be that Tyrion was supposed to befriend both Arya and Sansa, while it did not happen when it comes to Arya and GRRM decided to marry Tyrion to Sansa, while in the original storyline she was to marry Jeoffrey and have his babies: this might mean that, even if GRRM still decided to go for Jon+Arya (open to debate), Tyrion would probably just stay out of it because he will fall/has fallen(?) for Sansa instead or because he will just befriend Sansa (to have the original love triangle, we should have Jon falliing for Sansa and I don't see it happen because in the books Jon is always thinking about Arya or Tyrion suddenly in love with Arya and I don't see it happen either).

 

 

[Aduro]

Nobody's mentioning Davos? He had 13 and wasn't in AFFC or GOT. In A Dance with Dragons and Storm of Swords he was one of the most important and sympathetic characters. He had a journey from smuggler to knight in the past, and now we've seen him move from Knight, to Hand, to traitor, to the one who effectively saved the Wall from Mance Rayder, and he still probably has a very important role to play in finding Rickon.

 

Also I agree with Blade of Sunlight. Chapters are not really a reliable measure of importance/ For instance Areo Hotah is a POV twice in Dorne but is far less important or intersting than Doran. Similarly we see the arcs of Robb through Catelyn's POV and Littlefinger through Sansa's. All four characters are important, but in COK Robb is arguably more of a protagonist that Cat, even if he was often more piece than player. We also never got POVs for Robert Baratheon, Tywin, Littlefinger who were about as "major" as it gets at certain points compared to POV antagonists such as Cersei and Aeron.

 

POVs are probably chosen to withhold or share information Martin wants us to have at certain times. We needed to know about teh Valonqar prophecy and Joffrey's origins and childhoods so we get a lot of Cersei. We didn't need to know about the Red Wedding or truth about the assassination of Jon Arryn too early so we didn't get a POV from Tywin or Littlefinger who were more important antagonists.

[Southron Knight]

It is my view that GRRM needs to kill at least one of these "favourite" characters, and soon. I struggle to derive much pleasure from reading about someone who is more or less guaranteed to make it to the last act, especially in Dany's case. 

[John Doe]

Tyrion, Jon, Dany and Bran are the major characters. 

[Ser Gareth]

GRRM has previously said that the story was originally going to be told by the POV characters in the first book (prologue and epilogues aside).  So it's fair to assume they are the main characters of the story.  He has also said its about the children.

With Eddard & Catelyn (kind of) dead that basically leaves Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Arya & Sansa.  They are the main characters with regards to the end game of the books.

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, Southron Knight said:

It is my view that GRRM needs to kill at least one of these "favourite" characters, and soon. I struggle to derive much pleasure from reading about someone who is more or less guaranteed to make it to the last act, especially in Dany's case. 

I think Dany is the last "true" Targ and therefore will die by the end of the series and fulfil some kind of Targ prophecy.  That leaves the bastard Targs of Jon & Tyrion (GRRM's favourite character and who has kind of modelled on himself apparently).

The real question for me is how far GRRM will go with Tyrion.  I think the Lannister's are toast.  Too much has been made of them wiping out other houses so I think in an ironic twist of fate the Lannister line will be practically extinguished by the end of the series.  I believe Tyrion is Aery's son.  The line of succession will be interesting as technically it should be Jon after Dany but I have a feeling Jon may not make it either.  There is foreshadowing that Sansa will end up a Queen.

So I think  there is a real possibility that Tyrion will sit on the throne at the end with Sansa as his Queen.  Brienne will not only become the first female Kingsguard but also end up Lord Commander of the Kingsguard just like her distant relative did before her.

[Blade of Sunlight]

18 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You make good sense in pointing out that Bran’s viewpoint is one Martin has said is hard for him to write, and the other things you said, too.

Technically speaking, however, there’s no “three-eyed raven” in the books.  Bloodraven is styled as a “three-eyed crow”, which is important because its is the wildings who call men of the Night’s Watch “crows”.   As a once (-and-future?) Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, Brynden is clearly a “crow” not a raven.  His portrayal in Bran’s visions as having three eyes is probably a call-out to the mystical “third eye” of seers, which he certainly is.

That said, crow and raven are common names used for various sorts of corvids (that is, birds from the Corvus genus), and it may not be worthwhile trying to tease out much literary distinction between the two of them.  

Still, I’m disappointed that this was gratuitously changed in the HBO adaptation for no clear gain nor obvious reason.  You’ll notice that legendary actor Max von Sydow still wears his black Night’s Watch cloak in the HBO series: apparently a crow’s a crow’s a crow, even when he’s a three-eyed raven. ; – )

Bloodraven’s Bloody Random Raven Connections 

Although his lady mother’s sigil was that of House Blackwood of Raventree Hall, as Hand of the King the legitimized bastard prince Brynden took up a modified version of Aegon his father’s Targaryen dragon sigil, choosing a white dragon on a black field for his albinism, instead of a red dragon on a black field like his brother Daeron’s or an inverted black dragon on a red field like his brother Daemon's. So he wanted to present his standard as a dragon not a raven on the battlefield, probably to convey his legitimacy as a ruling dragon.

However, his famous company of longbowmen were called the Raven’s Teeth.  Since they were Brynden’s teeth, he can be seen to have been a raven.  It's pretty obvious he was a raven for Lord Mormont, too.

All characters who go by “Bran-like” names — like Bran the Builder, Brandon Stark, Brynden Tully, Bryndyn Rivers — cannot help but bring to mind that bran means raven in Welsh just as bren means raven in Gaelic.  (And bryn means hill in Welsh, Martin's semi-random respelling philosophies notwithstanding.)

Celtic and Norse mythologies are both rich in crows and ravens, from Brân the Blessed in the Welsh Mabinogion who could restore the dead to live, to Odin’s ravens Huginn and Muninn (read: "thought" and "memory") in the Elder Edda, to the Morrígan who was an Irish crow goddess of death, to the raven Thorin spoke with, Roäc son of Carc.

It was just a lapse, but I'm glad I made it because your replay was very interesting. I'm guessing they changed it on the show to avoid confusion between the "crows" and the "3 eyed crow", because we'll only learn the 3ec is a "crow" indeed this season (I'm guessing).

[norwaywolf123]

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think Dany is the last "true" Targ and therefore will die by the end of the series and fulfil some kind of Targ prophecy.  That leaves the bastard Targs of Jon & Tyrion (GRRM's favourite character and who has kind of modelled on himself apparently).

The real question for me is how far GRRM will go with Tyrion.  I think the Lannister's are toast.  Too much has been made of them wiping out other houses so I think in an ironic twist of fate the Lannister line will be practically extinguished by the end of the series.  I believe Tyrion is Aery's son.  The line of succession will be interesting as technically it should be Jon after Dany but I have a feeling Jon may not make it either.  There is foreshadowing that Sansa will end up a Queen.

1.

"The real question for me is how far GRRM will go with Tyrion.  I think the Lannister's are toast.  Too much has been made of them wiping out other houses so I think in an ironic twist of fate the Lannister line will be practically extinguished by the end of the series."

I doubt that, since this is not some twisted moral fulfillment book. For me it sounds like wishfullfillment on your part. Also the Stark, Targaryens and Arryns have all extinguished many houses.

Lannister: Reyne, Tarbeck, Darry "there is a cousin still alive and the Frey Darry's", Targaryen "Tried to", Stark "Tried to after Theon supossedly killed Bran and Rickon", Hornwood "One was killed at the Greenfork and Jaime killed the other but there is still a bastard left",

Stark: Greystark, the Wargking, the Marsh king, 

Targaryen: Hoare, Durrandon "In the male line", Gardener, Plumm "alive in name only since Viserys Plumm had no Plumm blood", 

Arryn: Many First-Men houses after the battle of sevenstars,

2.

" I believe Tyrion is Aery's son.  The line of succession will be interesting as technically it should be Jon after Dany but I have a feeling Jon may not make it either. "

I also believe that Tyrion is Aerys.

I don't think that Jon nor Dany will survive ASOIAF. But Dany might have a baby to suceed her?

3.

"There is foreshadowing that Sansa will end up a Queen."

What foreshadowing? I see her as the one who will teach us the game, not master it but introduce us to motivations. I also think that she will solve the Stark's feud with the Lannister's. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139943-brienne-jaime-sansa/

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

So I think  there is a real possibility that Tyrion will sit on the throne at the end with Sansa as his Queen.  Brienne will not only become the first female Kingsguard but also end up Lord Commander of the Kingsguard just like her distant relative did before her.

1. 

"So I think  there is a real possibility that Tyrion will sit on the throne at the end with Sansa as his Queen."

Who will accept Tyrion as king?

2. 

"Brienne will not only become the first female Kingsguard but also end up Lord Commander of the Kingsguard just like her distant relative did before her."

I think this is what many readers want but since this is a medieavel setting where succesfull women are often watched as witches and whores. She will be turned down. Brienne will probably continu the Tarth line in my mind.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Plumm "alive in name only since Viserys Plumm had no Plumm blood", 

That doesn't mean that the heir or the current Lord also hasn' Plumm blood.

 

[Raisin' Bran]

17 hours ago, Aduro said:

Nobody's mentioning Davos? He had 13 and wasn't in AFFC or GOT. In A Dance with Dragons and Storm of Swords he was one of the most important and sympathetic characters. He had a journey from smuggler to knight in the past, and now we've seen him move from Knight, to Hand, to traitor, to the one who effectively saved the Wall from Mance Rayder, and he still probably has a very important role to play in finding Rickon.

Davos does some important things, but does that mean that he is a major character or a "hero"? I do not think so.

And if you think that a major character and hero are synonymous, many people on this forum consider Tyrion to be an "anti-hero" or even a villan.  Though Tyrion may just be what provides the cohesion of the group of heroes in the end, that makes him extremely important, but not a hero.

3 hours ago, Southron Knight said:

It is my view that GRRM needs to kill at least one of these "favourite" characters, and soon. I struggle to derive much pleasure from reading about someone who is more or less guaranteed to make it to the last act, especially in Dany's case. 

Wow, what did Dany ever do to you?

[Southron Knight]

1 hour ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Wow, what did Dany ever do to you?

More like what did Dany ever do to earn her dragons, her army, her counsellors, her suitors, her servants or her long list of titles? Not much, I would argue.