Between Catelyn and Sansa, who would petryr baelish choose?

[Marcus corvinus]

LF's infatuation with Cat was beyond any healthy boundary. So much so that he practically tailored his whole life towards the purpose of getting back at everyone for his humiliation at the hands of Brandon. But he does still have feelings for her. In the show when cat meets LF in renly's camp he makes clear advances towards her, meaning he still has it for her.

Its my belief that it was LF who persuaded joffrey to kill Ned stark, so by doing this he would be able to sow the chaos he wanted and also probably take vengeance on house stark and on the man who married the love of his life.

 But then there's sansa. Apart from her great political value, LF also seems to have conspicuous romantic interest in her. The primary reason for this is because sansa is Cat's daughter and she looks like cat.

Other than that there's no real reason why LF would have romantic designs on her. There are many more girls prettier and far smarter than sansa and furthermore Sansa is the daughter of ned and niece of Brandon Stark. He is supposed to hate her. 

But his attraction to her is primarily due to cat not because of who Sansa is as a person. The nature of this attraction is somewhat curious. Is it revenge? That as a poor boy he rejected Cat's hand but now he can have one of the most beautiful and highborn girls in westeros? His revenge on Hoster, Cat and Brandon?

Or is it simply the semblance of unrequited love. He wanted cat but could never have her. But now this ''new Cat '' is there for the taking.

 

The question here is that given a choice between the two of them, who would he choose?

Suppose catelyn is kept alive after red wedding and LF being the lord of Harrenhal has the chance to have her and create a claim to riverrun as well. At the same time he also has sansa in the vale. Sansa is young and fertile while cat is older than LF himself. 

But politics aside, just purely being given a choice between the two, who would he go for? The OG or her derivative?

[Lilypad]

I think he'd take Catelyn over Sansa. Why take a facsimile over the original?

[Fox of House McCloud]

I'm pretty sure he would choose Catelyn in this hypothetical, although I think it's unfair to say Sansa is just Cat 2.0

[The Dew]

I believe it would have been Cat; his "love" for her goes back a long time, and LF was scarred for life for Cat. Sansa would be his substitute in search for the original. Well anything that moves, looks, talks like Cat would do for LF if he can't the original I believe. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

Obviously Cath

[SeanF]

Catelyn.  But, it's a weird infatuation, rather than any true love.  If you love someone, you don't set out to ruin their family.  Had Catelyn been taken prisoner at the Red Wedding, I could see LF forcing her to marry him.

WRT Sansa, as a matter of fact, she is reckoned to be extremely beautiful (as her mother was).  LF's attitude towards her is downright creepy, as he sees her as both romantic partner and daughter.

[Maxxine]

He would choose Cat. As you said his apparent infatuation with Sansa is because she looks so much like Cat. He's not attracted to Sansa for who Sansa really is.

On 8/6/2016 at 6:31 PM, Fox of House McCloud said:

I'm pretty sure he would choose Catelyn in this hypothetical, although I think it's unfair to say Sansa is just Cat 2.0

In the larger scheme of things Sansa is more than that, but I think from LF's point of view she is just Cat 2.0. And that is why he has taken such an interest.

[Lord Vance II]

I mean, honestly, in the current situation I think it might be Sansa. 

I know that Catelyn was the most powerful force in his life, and for much of it he would've given anything for her. But these are different times. With everything he's done and everything he wants to do, he doesn't need his fairytale princess, he needs a partner in crime. Cat isn't made for the game of thrones. She basically followed Robb around and worried (though, to be fair, I don't know what she could have done). Especially during their time in the Vale, Sansa shows some aptitude for what it takes (in Littlefinger's book). Plus, Sansa is easier for him to control, not that she's weak, but just more impressionable and guideable. Cat doesn't take his shit as much. 

Sansa would probably be a better ally if Littlefinger wants to bring the North into the fold. As far as he knows, Jon is the only Stark left in the North and though I don't think he sees whats happening with Jon, if it ever came up I'm sure he would rather have Sansa at his side than the step mom who hated him (not that Sansa was his bff, but still). 

Plus, superficially, Sansa is young and beautiful, compared to mother of 5 Cat. 

BUT if taking Sansa would mean Cat rots in jail.....he might do it. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

It depends.  Cat was his fantasy girl, but he was also hit with reality in that she (of course) favored her betrothed and did not come to see him after the duel, and burned his letters without reading them.  It's a love / hate fixation on her after that.  She rejected and abandoned him.  He still has feelings, but would also want to punish her and especially punish Starks that humiliated him.  Petyr Baelish may still harbor "love" in his heart, but Littlefinger wants to "fuck them."  

In Sansa, he sees opportunity for a do-over and his ambitions.  She's young and impressionable.  He describes her as even more beautiful than her mother was.  In King's Landing, Sansa is so abused by Cersei and Joffrey her self-confidence is shattered.  She's called stupid all the time even though she does have correct perceptions, she's just so low that she doesn't trust her own intelligence.  LF comes along and tells her how clever she is and takes her as his protege in his scheming.  Keeping her in the dark to his main goals, but giving her just enough to mold her so she can be his partner in the game. It's classic grooming and manipulation.  Sansa is uncomfortable with his "romantic" advances to be sure, but she also believes he saved her life and she's still wanted for regicide.  (She has no idea she has been framed by LF).  He gives her the Alayne Stone persona to "keep her safe," but also to separate her from her Stark identity, and make her more dependent on him.  He may be planning an engagement to Harry the Heir, but I doubt he would give up his prize possession entirely.  I think he's planning on Harry  to not live very long.  Remember he bragged at court that he had Catelyn's maidenhead?  That wasn't true, it was actually Lysa's.  I think ultimately he wants to preserve Sansa's maidenhood as long as it serves him, but have it for himself.  That would be his ultimate do-over:  That he could have a perfect "Cat" of his own creation and literally fuck the Starks.

I would not call this love in any healthy sense.  He loves himself most of all and sees Sansa only as a mirror for that.  To him, she's still the knight-crazy 12 year old that idealizes being a queen, not a maturing (mentally) young woman.  The Alayne Stone persona is also a mask that Sansa can use to shield her true thoughts from him.  From her POV, LF incorrectly assumes Sansa will be totally on board with Harry (she's indifferent to him at best, she's learned to judge character), the Vale (she's never expressed an interest in this), and Winterfell (this much is true, but she's only ever wanted to go home, not rule it).  If he's "in love" with Sansa, it's his own illusion of what he wants Sansa to be.  In truth, he doesn't actually know her that well.         

[The Drunkard]

By the time of the books, Sansa. He would know that he missed his shot with Catelyn. She saw him at his most pathetic and spent most of her life with another man. Sansa is his second chance, a Cat-lite that he can be a saviour and mentor to. But if he could rewind time, Cat.

[Drogonthedread]

Sansa 

She is more beautiful and offers him two Kingdoms instead of one .

 

[lojzelote]

If the choice was between Sansa and Catelyn circa ASoS, then Sansa. He had already lost his chance with Catelyn. But if the choice was between young Catelyn and Sansa, then certainly Catelyn. Sansa may be more beautiful than Catelyn had been, but I don't believe that LF was into her due to good looks and high birth only. If that was the case, he would have been satisfied with Lysa's affections. IMHO he fell in love/became infantuated with Catelyn due to her personality as well.

From this PoV, his current grooming of Sansa is not only creepy, but also sad. Sansa may have Cat's face, but their personalities greatly differ. Ironically, I would say that Sansa's starry-eyedness and sense for romance is much more similar to Lysa than Catelyn, who had been very pragmatic already as a young girl. I'd say Sansa is like an inflatable doll with which he means to play out his old fantasies/play pretend.

[Marcus corvinus]

5 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It depends.  Cat was his fantasy girl, but he was also hit with reality in that she (of course) favored her betrothed and did not come to see him after the duel, and burned his letters without reading them.  It's a love / hate fixation on her after that.  She rejected and abandoned him.  He still has feelings, but would also want to punish her and especially punish Starks that humiliated him.  Petyr Baelish may still harbor "love" in his heart, but Littlefinger wants to "fuck them."  

In Sansa, he sees opportunity for a do-over and his ambitions.  She's young and impressionable.  He describes her as even more beautiful than her mother was.  In King's Landing, Sansa is so abused by Cersei and Joffrey her self-confidence is shattered.  She's called stupid all the time even though she does have correct perceptions, she's just so low that she doesn't trust her own intelligence.  LF comes along and tells her how clever she is and takes her as his protege in his scheming.  Keeping her in the dark to his main goals, but giving her just enough to mold her so she can be his partner in the game. It's classic grooming and manipulation.  Sansa is uncomfortable with his "romantic" advances to be sure, but she also believes he saved her life and she's still wanted for regicide.  (She has no idea she has been framed by LF).  He gives her the Alayne Stone persona to "keep her safe," but also to separate her from her Stark identity, and make her more dependent on him.  He may be planning an engagement to Harry the Heir, but I doubt he would give up his prize possession entirely.  I think he's planning on Harry  to not live very long.  Remember he bragged at court that he had Catelyn's maidenhead?  That wasn't true, it was actually Lysa's.  I think ultimately he wants to preserve Sansa's maidenhood as long as it serves him, but have it for himself.  That would be his ultimate do-over:  That he could have a perfect "Cat" of his own creation and literally fuck the Starks.

I would not call this love in any healthy sense.  He loves himself most of all and sees Sansa only as a mirror for that.  To him, she's still the knight-crazy 12 year old that idealizes being a queen, not a maturing (mentally) young woman.  The Alayne Stone persona is also a mask that Sansa can use to shield her true thoughts from him.  From her POV, LF incorrectly assumes Sansa will be totally on board with Harry (she's indifferent to him at best, she's learned to judge character), the Vale (she's never expressed an interest in this), and Winterfell (this much is true, but she's only ever wanted to go home, not rule it).  If he's "in love" with Sansa, it's his own illusion of what he wants Sansa to be.  In truth, he doesn't actually know her that well.         

I wouldn't say that sansa was not on board with Harry and the vale. She's totally cool with manipulating sick silly robin's feelings and essentially makes him her puppy. And as for Harry, she's actually quite hot for him. She fights to stop herself from gawking at this new specimen and says to herself He doesn't need to love me, my lord, my husband, my love. Just accept me...

I don't know about you but she's almost desperate housewives level of interested in marrying him.

And as for learning to judge character, she's all in with Myranda Royce despite it being painfully obvious that this is a sinister woman, not a girl who probably purposefully choked her husband to death with her....parts and is extremely jealous of Alayne for her getting Harry. To any girl it should be painfully obvious that myranda wants her fiancee and hates her for being pretty...

[Light a wight tonight]

LF is obsessed with his memory of Catelyn, the young Tully daughter. Even were she alive she would no longer be that person. She's now the Lady of Winterfell, and closing in on middle age; she has born 5 children. Sansa comes closer to matching his youthful, infatuated memory than Catelyn does.

[Fencer]

Given the conditions posed in the OP, I would have to say that I think LF would go for Sansa, but for a slightly different reason than some others have pointed to.

Littlefinger is clearly infatuated with Sansa and trying to groom her into his creature, and while he is training her to play the game, I don't think he could possibly imagine her (or anyone, save possibly Varys or Tyrion) as being his equal (and in the end, I think Sansa will thereby bring him to his end).  In that regard, were Cat to be alive, I could imagine Littlefinger wanting nothing more than to present to her a Sansa that was completely under his control and that he had turned against Cat.  To me, at least, that seems to be the kind of revenge Littlefinger would truly enjoy, and at least partially sate his desire for revenge on the mother through the daughter.

That, or he'd want Sansa as his wife and Cat as his mistress, if we're really going to talk about Littlefinger's fantasy world.

[Jimmy is not No One]

I think he would choose Sansa.  Young, pretty, relatively naive and unspoiled versus old, jaded and past her prime (plus already had 5 kids...).  Why buy the old model when you can have the new?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

9 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said:

I wouldn't say that sansa was not on board with Harry and the vale.

When Petyr explains his plan to Sansa, the chapter ends with Petyr speaking and we don't see what Sansa's reaction to this proposal is.  She's just kinda quietly listening and following his train of thought.  Petyr would assume she'd be instantly and enthusiastically on board and of course she's a little hopeful this could work out in her favor upon their first meeting, but...

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My Harry.  My lord, my lover, my betrothed.

Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose. Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself.   A comely monster, that’s what he was.  Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.

She's clearly noticing he is conventionally handsome, but she's immediately thinking that his looks can hide a monstrous character.  She does note that while she does attempt to be likable to him, he makes no such attempt with her.  In fact, he's a total asshole to her.  She has repeatedly thought in her own (Sansa's) mind that she wants someone to love her for herself, not a claim or a dowry.  While she is still beholden to Littlefinger for being her savior and not yet aware of his role in the destruction of her family, she does understand her "father" wants her to charm him for the sake of the plan, but her inner thoughts toward Harry are clearly unfavorable the more she interacts with him.  He's 16 and already has 3 bastards.  He's a young Robert Baratheon and Sansa did not like Robert.  I really doubt this marriage is actually going to happen or it will be short lived.  Petyr doesn't actually want to lose his prize possession.  Plus, she's constantly measuring up the character of men she encounters in the Vale.  The only one that comes up on top is Ser Lothar Brune, Petyr's hired sword, but who is smitten with Mya Stone (baseborn) and Sansa thinks their pairing would be a good match despite age, looks, or social status.  So please tell me again how she hasn't changed at all since the beginning of GoT.      

9 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said:

She's totally cool with manipulating sick silly robin's feelings and essentially makes him her puppy

If she uses any manipulative tactic, it's designed to get him away from his infantile behavior and get him to grow into a strong young man.  I don't believe Sweetrobin is naturally sick.  I think he was brought up with toxic mothering on the level of Munchausen syndrome by proxy.  He was breast fed at least until Lysa's death when he's 6-7 years old and possibly lacking in the nutrients of a diverse diet.  Add to that the positive reinforcement of being coddled when he has a shaking fit when he doesn't get his way.  Add to that being isolated from healthy social interaction.  Add to that this history of drugging him when he has a fit seems to go back to Lysa and LF is taking advantage of this precedent.  If Sansa gets hard with him, it's usually when he's being very obstinate and her anger is to give him the discipline he's sorely lacking.  I'd say that's good parenting.  Her influence on him has helped grow his self confidence and independence, which undermines LF's plans for him.  She totally does not manipulate his crush on her.  In fact, she actively discourages it as she should.  And she doesn't know Sweetrobin is purposefully being overdosed.  She thinks to herself how pretty SR's hair is and how she wished for him to one day have a wife that would find him beautiful.  That's not consistent with someone who knows he's going to die a child.  If she can help him not have the fits to begin with, he wouldn't need the sweet sleep.    

9 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said:

And as for learning to judge character, she's all in with Myranda Royce despite it being painfully obvious that this is a sinister woman

Well, it was Lady Waynwood that actually rebuffed the match in that the Rhoyce's were's highborn enough for her heir and possible heir to the Vale.  With the sudden possible betrothal of a bastard to Harry, that would make the Rhoyce's take notice.  What would make proud, vain Lady Waynwood agree to the match? -- a shit ton of gold.  And why would Petyr pay so much for a bastard's dowry?  It's sending up huge red flags.  There's strong suspicion the Rhoyce's know exactly who Alayne really is.  Myranda just casually tosses out mention of Jon Snow being LC of the NW.  If she really thought Alayne was baseborn, why would she throw that out there unless she was gauging a reaction?  I see wickedness in her humor, but not in her intentions.  She actually seems like a pretty fun chick to be around.  

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“[...] I aspire to be wicked. You must tell me all your secrets on the ride down. May I call you Alayne?” “If you wish, my lady.” But you’ll get no secrets from me.
[...]
“[...] Oh, and the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s.”
“Jon Snow?” she blurted out, surprised.
“Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.

Rhoyce's have been joined to the Starks through marriage in the past and they definitely have no love for LF.  They also seem to genuinely care about Robert Arryn's upbringing as once offering to foster him in a much more wholesome environment with the traditional skills he would need to know to rule.   

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“Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce,” Petyr had warned her. “When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool, but underneath she’s shrewder than her father. Guard your tongue around her.

 Now why is LF so worried about Sansa befriending Myranda?  Seems like that should be a point in Myranda's favor if LF is worried about her.  So far, Myranda has been a positive influence on Sansa is taking her from shy maid, to a more self-confident young woman that can flirt and banter right back.  She's also playing a huge role in her sexual awakening.  Let's just say from her dreams, Sansa's tastes lay more with bad boys rather than pretty boys in reality.  But mostly, I think things are being set up for the downfall of LF and the Vale lords conspiring to play a role in supporting the North in the near future.    

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 Now why is LF so worried about Sansa befriending Myranda?  Seems like that should be a point in Myranda's favor if LF is worried about her.  So far, Myranda has been a positive influence on Sansa is taking her from shy maid, to a more self-confident young woman that can flirt and banter right back.  She's also playing a huge role in her sexual awakening.  Let's just say from her dreams, Sansa's tastes lay more with bad boys rather than pretty boys in reality.  But mostly, I think things are being set up for the downfall of LF and the Vale lords conspiring to play a role in supporting the North in the near future.    

Baelish was right to worry. Sansa has already given all the clues that Myranda needs to give out that she is Sansa Stark. It will be interesting to see what Myranda and her father do with the information.

[Slaysman]

On 8/6/2016 at 4:09 PM, Marcus corvinus said:

LF's infatuation with Cat was beyond any healthy boundary. So much so that he practically tailored his whole life towards the purpose of getting back at everyone for his humiliation at the hands of Brandon. But he does still have feelings for her. In the show when cat meets LF in renly's camp he makes clear advances towards her, meaning he still has it for her.

Its my belief that it was LF who persuaded joffrey to kill Ned stark, so by doing this he would be able to sow the chaos he wanted and also probably take vengeance on house stark and on the man who married the love of his life.

 But then there's sansa. Apart from her great political value, LF also seems to have conspicuous romantic interest in her. The primary reason for this is because sansa is Cat's daughter and she looks like cat.

Other than that there's no real reason why LF would have romantic designs on her. There are many more girls prettier and far smarter than sansa and furthermore Sansa is the daughter of ned and niece of Brandon Stark. He is supposed to hate her. 

But his attraction to her is primarily due to cat not because of who Sansa is as a person. The nature of this attraction is somewhat curious. Is it revenge? That as a poor boy he rejected Cat's hand but now he can have one of the most beautiful and highborn girls in westeros? His revenge on Hoster, Cat and Brandon?

Or is it simply the semblance of unrequited love. He wanted cat but could never have her. But now this ''new Cat '' is there for the taking.

 

The question here is that given a choice between the two of them, who would he choose?

Suppose catelyn is kept alive after red wedding and LF being the lord of Harrenhal has the chance to have her and create a claim to riverrun as well. At the same time he also has sansa in the vale. Sansa is young and fertile while cat is older than LF himself. 

But politics aside, just purely being given a choice between the two, who would he go for? The OG or her derivative?

So basically Littlefinger caused the War of the Five Kings because his feelings were hurt? This does not make him a tragic hero or a victim. I will grant he is probably the smartest person in any room he enters. Unfortunately I think with all his scheming and politicking he has over extended himself and left to many bread crumbs that can be easily connected should anyone pick one up, dust it off and look at it.

While Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters in the series the fact remains his obsession with Catelyn will be his undoing.

In summary Littlefinger is basically a Westerosi version of a Bond Villan with a shitty reason to be said villian.

[Masha]

28 minutes ago, Slaysman said:

So basically Littlefinger caused the War of the Five Kings because his feelings were hurt? This does not make him a tragic hero or a victim. I will grant he is probably the smartest person in any room he enters. Unfortunately I think with all his scheming and politicking he has over extended himself and left to many bread crumbs that can be easily connected should anyone pick one up, dust it off and look at it.

While Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters in the series the fact remains his obsession with Catelyn will be his undoing.

In summary Littlefinger is basically a Westerosi version of a Bond Villan with a shitty reason to be said villian.

yes, he totally did. To get revenge on both Tullys and Starks. 

1) He betrayed his mentor, Jon Arryn

2) He manipulated and murdered Lysa, his "first" who was completely in love with him, and he kind of used her mental issues to get her to betray her own sister and husband. Now actively trying to do away with her son

3) he basically destroyed entire House Arryn who did nothing but help him