Marcus corvinus Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Okay everyone seems to take it for granted that aegon is fake But one thing no seems to take to account is that varys convinced jon connington that aegon is aegon targareyn. Jon connington is one of the smartest and most able lords in westeros. And when varys brings him to JC he's already a hardened mercenary, more world weary. And he's always been suspicious and reproachful of the spider. Why did jon con accept aegon? Isn't he supposed to doubt it? After all this aegon was suddenly conjured before him out of nowhere years after the battle of the trident. What evidence did varys provide JC? or did Myles Toyne convince him? Were varys and toyne playing a number on him? Or does JC suffer from denial? He lost his prince, his love, his lands, titles and everything; in his mind this is his last chance at redemption, a chance to live for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Nothing Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said: Or does JC suffer from denial? He lost his prince, his love, his lands, titles and everything; in his mind this is his last chance at redemption, a chance to live for something. This last reason, I think. He might even have his doubts but at least with Aegon he still has something to move him forward. If he is the true heir of Rhaegar, he is doing what he thinks is right, and maybe redeem himself as you say. If the boy is fake, at least he is helping to remove the Baratheons and Lannisters from power, so he has his revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Wishful thinking on JonCon's part. He wants to believe that part of his beloved Rhaegar has survived so he convinces himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 18 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said: Jon connington is one of the smartest and most able lords in westeros. Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus corvinus Posted August 21, 2016 Author Share Posted August 21, 2016 3 hours ago, John Doe said: Not really. hand of the king at 18, kicked robert's ass, rose to lieutenant in short time in GC and is a superb military commander. Varys does not simply choose you to lead a continent conquering crusade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ice Wolf of Loki Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 17 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said: Wishful thinking on JonCon's part. He wants to believe that part of his beloved Rhaegar has survived so he convinces himself. This, it's easier to convince someone who desperately wants to believe the lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcat Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 20 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said: Wishful thinking on JonCon's part. He wants to believe that part of his beloved Rhaegar has survived so he convinces himself. Yep. He believed because he wanted to believe. If someone doesn't want to believe what you're telling them, you may never be able to convince them of it. But if they want desperately to believe a thing, it's far easier to convince them. Jon loved Rhaegar. Therefore, it was probably quite easy for Varys to convince him that this was Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 There must have been some proof to sway Jon Connington to this cause. The man's thoughts show his contempt for Varys and his machinations in ADwD very clearly. Unless we assume he only developed those feelings later in life it is very unlikely that he would have just taken Varys and Illyrio's word that this child was Rhaegar's son. Keep in mind that Connington had no guarantee that he would get his revenge or anything of that sort when he took little Aegon in and raised him as his son. He could easily enough have died before the time came (as Myles Toyne then did). It makes sense that Connington would have jumped on the chance to invade Westeros at the side of some pretender who might enable him to take his revenge but the idea that he would give the remainder of his life to raise Rhaegar's son makes little sense if he wasn't pretty sure that the boy was the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus corvinus Posted August 21, 2016 Author Share Posted August 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: There must have been some proof to sway Jon Connington to this cause. The man's thoughts show his contempt for Varys and his machinations in ADwD very clearly. Unless we assume he only developed those feelings later in life it is very unlikely that he would have just taken Varys and Illyrio's word that this child was Rhaegar's son. Keep in mind that Connington had no guarantee that he would get his revenge or anything of that sort when he took little Aegon in and raised him as his son. He could easily enough have died before the time came (as Myles Toyne then did). It makes sense that Connington would have jumped on the chance to invade Westeros at the side of some pretender who might enable him to take his revenge but the idea that he would give the remainder of his life to raise Rhaegar's son makes little sense if he wasn't pretty sure that the boy was the real deal. Well said mate!!! This is exactly what i'm trying to say. Plus JonCon is POV character and we never see him express any doubt at all about Aegon's authenticity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ckram Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 26 minutes ago, Marcus corvinus said: we never see him express any doubt at all about Aegon's authenticity Actually, some say that he does it here: "Lord Connington," he said, "I like your castle." "Your father's lands are beautiful," he said. His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy's. But I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Quote "You see the wonders than can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?" Alayne I, Feast 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 People has a tendency to believe what they want to believe . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HallowedMarcus Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 I have a beautiful singular theory that makes it easier to understand, but still to most I guess difficult to believe in. Griff believed Varys because Varys proved he was the real deal. Maybe one of Griff's trusted servant was part on the chance of babies, meaning he knew about Varys plans and took part on it. Varys came to him and told him that the Targaryen might lose the war and with him plotted to change the kiddos. Yes I know. It would mean that Aegon is the true number 1 heir to the Iron Thron; that the beloved dwarf Tyrion has not Targaryen blood; that Aegon is one of the three heads of the Dragon. And so what? It is possible. Maybe he takes the Iron Thrones before Dragon Queen; maybe he dies before she arrives in Westeros (if she arrives) and he is murdered and maybe he wins and reigns,, regardless of who the promised prince is, until he dies of age and his descendents rule for centures afterweards I, personally believe that Aegon is a true Dragon, will take the Iron Throne, but will be killed shortly afterwards. People don't accept Aegon is a True Dragon, because of their believe in R+L=J or because they want the Dragon Queen to take over Westeros.. Well I believe G.R.R.M. made him/will make a true Dragon, the real Son of Prince Rhaegar and heir to Westeros and then after there are no doubts that it is him, he will have him killed! That is what G.R.R.M does and I do hope that's what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said: I have a beautiful singular theory that makes it easier to understand, but still to most I guess difficult to believe in. Griff believed Varys because Varys proved he was the real deal. Maybe one of Griff's trusted servant was part on the chance of babies, meaning he knew about Varys plans and took part on it. Varys came to him and told him that the Targaryen might lose the war and with him plotted to change the kiddos. Yes I know. It would mean that Aegon is the true number 1 heir to the Iron Thron; that the beloved dwar Tyrion has not Targaryen blood; that Aegon id one of the three heads of the Dragon. And so what? It is possible. Maybe he takes the Iron Thrones before Dragon Queen, maybe he dies before she arrives in Westeros (if she arrives) and he is murdered and maybe he wins and reigns,, regardless of who the promised prince is, until he dies of age and his descendents rule for centures afterweards I, personally believe that Aegon is a true Dragon, will take the Iron Throne, but will be killed shortly afterwards. People don't accept Aegon is a True Dragon, because of their believe in J+L=J or because they want the Dragon Queen to take over Westeros.. Well I believe G.R.R.M. made him/will make a true Dragon, the real Son of Prince Rhaegar and heir to Westeros and then after there are no doubts that it is him, he will have him killed! That is what G.R.R.M does and I do hope that's what happens. I agree. After all, black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Martell Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 I also believe Aegon is the real deal. Even if some proofs for the fAegon theory is compelling. I think, as was said earlier that JonCon believed because he wanted to believe. But also because he knows something that we don't. I'm sure Varys had to give him some proof, or maybe just warn him beforehand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 7 hours ago, Lord Varys said: There must have been some proof to sway Jon Connington to this cause. The man's thoughts show his contempt for Varys and his machinations in ADwD very clearly. Unless we assume he only developed those feelings later in life it is very unlikely that he would have just taken Varys and Illyrio's word that this child was Rhaegar's son. Keep in mind that Connington had no guarantee that he would get his revenge or anything of that sort when he took little Aegon in and raised him as his son. He could easily enough have died before the time came (as Myles Toyne then did). It makes sense that Connington would have jumped on the chance to invade Westeros at the side of some pretender who might enable him to take his revenge but the idea that he would give the remainder of his life to raise Rhaegar's son makes little sense if he wasn't pretty sure that the boy was the real deal. We all believe what we want to be believe. It does not just have to be about revenge, Aegon is his connection to the past, to Rhaegar and Westeros, to the man he loved and the home he loved. You chose your target well Sir. Jon's chapters reek of desperation and musts. Even going so far as to hide Greyscale, because lying to everyone including himself is the right thing to do for his desires. It would seem Jon can convince himself of a lot of things. If you are desperate for something to be true I am sure you can find a way to make it true. Plus it gives his life purpose on a part of his life he was never willing to really let go. It often seems more about Rhaegar than it does about Aegon for him. While he cares for Aegon I think he is also using him. JonCon is a complex guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 5 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said: I have a beautiful singular theory that makes it easier to understand, but still to most I guess difficult to believe in. Griff believed Varys because Varys proved he was the real deal. Maybe one of Griff's trusted servant was part on the chance of babies, meaning he knew about Varys plans and took part on it. Varys came to him and told him that the Targaryen might lose the war and with him plotted to change the kiddos. Yes I know. It would mean that Aegon is the true number 1 heir to the Iron Thron; that the beloved dwarf Tyrion has not Targaryen blood; that Aegon is one of the three heads of the Dragon. And so what? It is possible. Maybe he takes the Iron Thrones before Dragon Queen; maybe he dies before she arrives in Westeros (if she arrives) and he is murdered and maybe he wins and reigns,, regardless of who the promised prince is, until he dies of age and his descendents rule for centures afterweards I, personally believe that Aegon is a true Dragon, will take the Iron Throne, but will be killed shortly afterwards. People don't accept Aegon is a True Dragon, because of their believe in J+L=J or because they want the Dragon Queen to take over Westeros.. Well I believe G.R.R.M. made him/will make a true Dragon, the real Son of Prince Rhaegar and heir to Westeros and then after there are no doubts that it is him, he will have him killed! That is what G.R.R.M does and I do hope that's what happens. I think it may have more to do with the Mummers dragon quote and he is a book 5 addition non POV that Tyrion more or less thinks little of after the fact. J+L=J? Time travel theory? That's really disturbing, his own mother, oh that Jon. I could assume it was a type-o but there is no fun in that. Faegon also mirrors the story of the Princes in the tower and the fake princes that would later try to retake England with false claims. A few years back a lot of people hoped he was real. Many still hope he is one of the heads of the dragon. Symbolism in the books is being rather difficult though as well as plot. JCRB is a huge fan of FAegon and Dany and Jon, got a hype train and everything going. But I personally don't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 8 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: We all believe what we want to be believe. It does not just have to be about revenge, Aegon is his connection to the past, to Rhaegar and Westeros, to the man he loved and the home he loved. You chose your target well Sir. Jon's chapters reek of desperation and musts. Even going so far as to hide Greyscale, because lying to everyone including himself is the right thing to do for his desires. It would seem Jon can convince himself of a lot of things. If you are desperate for something to be true I am sure you can find a way to make it true. Plus it gives his life purpose on a part of his life he was never willing to really let go. It often seems more about Rhaegar than it does about Aegon for him. While he cares for Aegon I think he is also using him. JonCon is a complex guy. Actually, you believe what reason tells you to. You don't choose to believe that the sun is shining when it is shining. But that is besides the point. Jon Connington may have indeed wanted to believe/hoped that Aegon survived and all. But that in itself should not have been enough to convince him that this was actually the case. It should have been more. Perhaps Lemore confirmed the truth of Varys' claim for Connington (and he has good reason to trust Lemore)? I never said it must have been a good proof. Just something more than Varys' word and his assurances. I mean, if Jon Connington mistrusts Varys - which he does - then there must have been something to convince him to trust him on this thing. Connington does not lie to himself in the greyscale department, by the way. He knows he is a dead man walking. He just doesn't tell the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 10 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: We all believe what we want to be believe. Not really. We are likely to be more open to be convinced if we want to believe, but that does not mean we blindly believe everything and anything we want to. I agree with @Lord Varys that someone like Connington would need some kind of proof in order to believe this. Most rational people would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Not really. We are likely to be more open to be convinced if we want to believe, but that does not mean we blindly believe everything and anything we want to. I agree with @Lord Varys that someone like Connington would need some kind of proof in order to believe this. Most rational people would. If we imagine this thing as a real event then Connington would have had a lot of questions when Varys and Illyrio first approached him about this. If they did it through Myles Toyne (which is actually pretty likely) then this would have made things somewhat easier for them but it would still not have been a confirmation that they were telling the truth. The fact that Connington in general mistrusts/loathes Varys for some reason should definitely cause him to second-guess the motivations of that man. Why the hell should he have saved Rhaegar's son and why the hell would he scheme to put him on the Iron Throne? Connington would ask those questions. And the other major problem with the Aegon thing is that - assuming Tyrion's assessment of the boy's age in ADwD is correct (15-16 vs. 18) then we would have to believe that Jon Connington was stupid/blinded enough to deliberately mistake a two-year-old for a five-year-old. That doesn't make any sense at all. If that was the case Connington himself must believe that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son. But it is pretty obvious that he does believe this is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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