Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[wolfmaid7]

38 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Can't really see the issue to be honest. The World book ended up more about general history and setting etc from a narrators point of view. Character bios wouldn't actually work as why would we believe that some Maester named Yandel knows all the details about everybody from each house, especially Lords daughters etc.

What were given instead is even better. Something written by Ran and Linda, not made up, or written by some Maester, but actually taken straight from the mouth of the man who created the whole WOIAF. GRRM, and put into text. 

Well we don't know how that Info "might" have appeard,but just the fact that was suppose to be there is suspect.As i said its very easy to confirm if GRRM actually said this or not.

You keep saying he did and that's on faith not fact.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Well we don't know how that Info "might" have appeard,but just the fact that was suppose to be there is suspect.As i said its very easy to confirm if GRRM actually said this or not.

You keep saying he did and that's on faith not fact.

 

Your right of course, I haven't been told directly from GRRM no. 

But the only other option is that Ran and Linda made it up which I think is quite a ridiculous notion, but that's just me. 

[Sly Wren]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But the only other option is that Ran and Linda made it up which I think is quite a ridiculous notion, but that's just me. 

No--there's also the option that they just made a mistake

Like the other mistakes that got into the app--nothing nefarious or stupid. Just a massive amount of info to go through. And mistakes got made. This could also be a mistake.

Or, it could be right. We just don't know yet.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

No--there's also the option that they just made a mistake

Like the other mistakes that got into the app--nothing nefarious or stupid. Just a massive amount of info to go through. And mistakes got made. This could also be a mistake.

Or, it could be right. We just don't know yet.

The way its worded though seems to point away from being a mistake don't you think? It's more of a statement. It's not just saying she played with the lance sometimes. It's saying she is practiced at tilting at rings. 

That, is a whole other ball game and points to a higher level skill through a good deal of practice.

If that is a mistake, then that is a major one, and in the four years the app has existed and the many times it has been analysed for mistakes, then you think that would have been taken out, or reworded, you know what I mean?

Lyanna is a very popular character, even though she's long dead, and her entry is gonna be visited a lot on the app naturally.  

I believe they would have had it reading just exactly the way they want it to.

Of course though, I have to admit, I have never heard or read GRRM himself saying Lyanna was practiced at tilting at rings, I 100% assume it due to everything I've read on the creation of the app.

I only ask that we acknowledge it as a decent piece of semi canon evidence for Lyanna having some form of jousting training.

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Your right of course, I haven't been told directly from GRRM no. 

But the only other option is that Ran and Linda made it up which I think is quite a ridiculous notion, but that's just me. 

Nahhhh i don't think the only option is that they lied.I don't think they lied at all.I happen to agree with Sly in that it was a mistake,but imo not the kind of mistake where they heard wrong.It may be the kind of mistake where he may have assumed wrong.

Or,again we are completely wrong and GRRM simply told Ran and Linda that extra detail which would could easily be confirmed if we were to get that this detail in particular was one that came from GRRM.

I would like to know.As i said i believe Lyanna was TKOTLT based off of what we know.But i believe that about her knowing full well that there's evidence that it could be Ned which makes a bit more sense.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yup.

Plus we now have the post showing that the idea of riding at rings has been floated by years. Even by the app writers. And we know that mistakes got into the app--completely reasonable that they would, given the mammoth amount of detail that was being put together.

But that also means we don't know how much to trust the riding at rings in the app--not yet. Until we get an SSM or a book confirmation, we're limited on how to assess it. 

This just seems like an argument we're unlikely to solve until we get the next book.

Agreed--That would be really helpful.

Couldn't have said this any better.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Your right of course, I haven't been told directly from GRRM no. 

But the only other option is that Ran and Linda made it up which I think is quite a ridiculous notion, but that's just me. 

No, it is not just you. I remember at least one GRRM interview, long before there were apps and even the idea of the worldbook was known, George R.R. Martin said that in order to answer that, he would have to ask @Ran because although he would have Westeros-related detailed things put down in his own notes somewhere; @Ran knew them all by heart and he (George) didn't, so that's what he'd do.

[Kienn]

Sounds like something they may have made up(they are Lyanna=KotLT believers) and asked GRRM if it was accurate. I believe Ran has said he did this several times with other topics that had gaps for WoIaF.

So GRRM says "sure, why not".

If it was important, i.e. a clue to KotLT's identity, it would be in the books. Since it's not, I can only take it to mean GRRM doesn't think it's that relevant and he probably never intended people to go so apey over Lyanna.

[wolfmaid7]

9 hours ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

No, it is not just you. I remember at least one GRRM interview, long before there were apps and even the idea of the worldbook was known, George R.R. Martin said that in order to answer that, he would have to ask @Ran because although he would have Westeros-related detailed things put down in his own notes somewhere; @Ran knew them all by heart and he (George) didn't, so that's what he'd do.

This is kind of void of context "answer what?" a really minor detail when it comes to remembering the name of a King that did X isn't this scenario.This is a major detail so if the below is the case:

The vast majority of the app really only restates, in more concise form, details that are scattered across the novels; many things you might think are new are just things you’ve forgotten or didn’t quite piece together, in other words! But there are some new details buried in there, both minor and not-so-minor, thanks to a long, long Q&A with GRRM that provided us quite a few details that have never been confirmed before."

It would be nice to know if Lyanna having been practiced at tilting rings was one of them.This would make the case for her being TKOTLT pretty much locked IMO.Not to say its not possible that it was Ned,he's a strong contender to but this might get the fence sitters to lean more in her favor.

 

 

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

This is quite an astonishing mental failure on the part of Aerys,

"Mad King".

But really, just because you don't agree with what Aerys did or should have done, doesn't mean it's a mistake that slipped through the app.  It might be, but it's not evidence of anything, certainly not the question of whether Lyanna was skilled at jousting.

They have GRRM's notes.  If it's not in the notes, they ask him.  If he confirms, it goes in the app.  Why would they make up their own details?  They would look like morons if a ton of people pointed out their own fanfic-input was wrong and they refused to confirm, deny or change it.

And I'm also not buying that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna as an insult, and there was no love between them and the blue roses are all bad etc.  Rhaegar died with her name on his lips, and she died with his flowers in her hand.  What was that all about?  Were they both so driven by vengeance that their last thoughts were each of their one great enemy?  (No.)

 

[J. Stargaryen]

18 hours ago, Kienn said:

Sounds like something they may have made up(they are Lyanna=KotLT believers) and asked GRRM if it was accurate. I believe Ran has said he did this several times with other topics that had gaps for WoIaF.

So GRRM says "sure, why not".

Your argument is that GRRM said "sure, why not" to something that wasn't true? I don't understand why people think he would have handled this Q&A so much differently than he's handled himself in the SSMs. After all, a lot of the info contained therein comes from GRRM answering a question, or questions, that someone has asked.

Quote

If it was important, i.e. a clue to KotLT's identity, it would be in the books.

There are some problems with this statement.

First, the idea that the clue itself is important is not really true. The majority of the people who have an opinion about the identity of the KotLT think it's Lyanna, and they were able to come to this conclusion without that clue.

Next, the idea that all important clues must have been included in the text so far is not necessarily true. We're getting Lady Lance in TWoW, which looks to a lot of people like a clue that Lyanna was the KotLT.

Quote

Since it's not, I can only take it to mean GRRM doesn't think it's that relevant and he probably never intended people to go so apey over Lyanna.

Let's think that through. GRRM didn't want people to go so "apey" over Lyanna, so he repeatedly told us that jousting is mostly about horsemanship, and also repeatedly told us that Lyanna was a great rider. Brilliant strategy, that.

[Kienn]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Your argument is that GRRM said "sure, why not" to something that wasn't true?

Uh no... why try to completely twist my argument to this? The point is that it's true, but simply unimportant. It's a detail about Lyanna, not the resolution to a mystery.

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Let's think that through. GRRM didn't want people to go so "apey" over Lyanna, so he repeatedly told us that jousting is mostly about horsemanship, and also repeatedly told us that Lyanna was a great rider. Brilliant strategy, that.

GRRM doesn't control what the fandom seizes onto and develops into theories. Supposedly he doesn't pay attention to them but has also said that many of them are quite wrong - blowing small lines out of proportion into giant theories.

Again I can make the exact same argument as you are. Why did GRRM repeatedly put info in the books about "booming" voices if it's not important to KotLT? None of it is linked at all to Lyanna, but is repeatedly linked to Ned.

There are certainly other reasons to have included info about jousting and Lyanna being a great rider is already satisfied by the observations that Jon and Arya are also both great riders. There is not necessarily any other payoff besides that.

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

The majority of the people who have an opinion about the identity of the KotLT think it's Lyanna, and they were able to come to this conclusion without that clue.

Popular belief ≠ fact

The majority of people come to this opinion by reading the theory from other people. As new people read the books and look online they are convinced by the most popular theories because those are the first ones they see. That certainly doesn't make them true.

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

Uh no... why try to completely twist my argument to this? The point is that it's true, but simply unimportant. It's a detail about Lyanna, not the resolution to a mystery.

I don't believe I'm twisting your argument. You suggested that Elio and Linda asked GRRM if Lyanna had practiced jousting and that GRRM replied "sure, why not." In other words, the fact that Lyanna had practiced jousting did not exist until Elio and Linda invented and GRRM okayed it. Because that's what it seems to like you're saying, -- "sure, why not." -- and I find that ridiculous.

On the other hand, if you're saying that GRRM made Lyanna a fantastic rider, who practiced at jousting, but who was not the KotLT, I find that to be highly unlikely. Because why would he make those first two things true if the third one wasn't? Was he aiming for pointless coincidence? I don't get it.

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

GRRM doesn't control what the fandom seizes onto and develops into theories. Supposedly he doesn't pay attention to them but has also said that many of them are quite wrong - blowing small lines out of proportion into giant theories.

You said GRRM probably didn't intend the fandom to go "apey" over Lyanna as the KotLT. And I'm saying that if that was actually his intention, he erred.

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

Popular belief ≠ fact

Correct. However, something that often gets taken for granted around here is how these popular beliefs came to be so. The answer is simple: they made the most sense to the most people.

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

The majority of people come to this opinion by reading the theory from other people. As new people read the books and look online they are convinced by the most popular theories because those are the first ones they see. That certainly doesn't make them true.

I agree that this is true, as well. However, it's also true that it works the other way. There are plenty of contrarians who disagree with the most popular theories precisely because they are the most popular.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Kienn

Honest question.

Do you really and truly believe Eddard Stark, a man grown of 18 years, scavenged for ill fitting mismatched armour(that would physically endanger his own well being) from Harrenhals Tourney population to jump on a horse and challenge three champions?

Does this sound like the Ned Stark you have read about in the books? 

I'm really curious to know.

[Kienn]

59 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

In other words, the fact that Lyanna had practiced jousting did not exist until Elio and Linda invented and GRRM okayed it.

None of the "facts" of a fictional book are "facts" until the author says so...

Elio/Linda have said that part of their process for writing WoIaF was filling in blanks and then checking with GRRM. So are you saying that any of those details GRRM agreed to put in the book are false because they did not originate with him?

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

On the other hand, if you're saying that GRRM made Lyanna a fantastic rider, who practiced at jousting, but who was not the KotLT, I find that to be highly unlikely. Because why would he make those first two things true if the third one wasn't? Was he aiming for pointless coincidence? I don't get it.

Who thinks like that? Do you define things in your head based on what they're not? That's quite a list to make for everything.

GRRM made Lyanna a mixture of Sansa/Arya in that she likes song and romance but also swordplay and horse riding.

Separately he has depicted jousting and had a couple characters point out that horse riding is a prereq for jousting.

Again separately, he has created the KotLT, a character who jousts well, appears smaller than an average knight, and is able to produce a booming voice.

Now something like 10 years after all that if Elio/Linda suggest that perhaps Lyanna practiced riding at rings at some point and he agrees(because it is a plausible extension of her personality), you think he must have considered every implication that might have made upon 20 years of fandom hyping up an incorrect theory?

[Kienn]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Kienn

Honest question.

Do you really and truly believe Eddard Stark, a man grown of 18 years, scavenged for ill fitting mismatched armour(that would physically endanger his own well being) from Harrenhals Tourney population to jump on a horse and challenge three champions?

Does this sound like the Ned Stark you have read about in the books? 

I'm really curious to know.

He doesn't need to scavenge. I'm sure he had friends available from both the North and the Vale.

There's no indication that ill fitting = dangerous. Perhaps uncomfortable. Actually Tyrion makes this point multiple times when he has to wear armor that isn't his. Furthermore, Ned would have seen the champions jousting the previous day in order to judge them against his own skill and the relative risk of using non-optimal armor against them.

It does indeed sound like Ned to me. He teaches honor and answers the prayer of his new friend Howland on behalf of their gods.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Kienn said:

He doesn't need to scavenge. I'm sure he had friends available from both the North and the Vale.

There's no indication that ill fitting = dangerous. Perhaps uncomfortable. Actually Tyrion makes this point multiple times when he has to wear armor that isn't his. Furthermore, Ned would have seen the champions jousting the previous day in order to judge them against his own skill and the relative risk of using non-optimal armor against them.

It does indeed sound like Ned to me. He teaches honor and answers the prayer of his new friend Howland on behalf of their gods.

Yes, friends who would tell him he is a frozen faced fool asking for ill fitting mismatched armour, so they would give him fitting armour.

Doesnt Tyrion get badly injured in each battle he fights? Sorry, that example does NOT work in your favour.

[Kienn]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Doesnt Tyrion get badly injured in each battle he fights? Sorry, that example does NOT work in your favour.

Realistically Tyrion should get murdered within seconds in each of his battles. Non-fatal injuries are quite a favorable outcome.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Kienn said:

Realistically Tyrion should get murdered within seconds in each of his battles. Non-fatal injuries are quite a favorable outcome.

Let's not make this about Tyrion. I am asking you flat out. Open your mind and ask yourself. Do you seriously believe Eddard Stark was the mystery knight of the laughing tree.

I don't wanna be blunt but seriously? I think you are so far off the mark it's unreal. Maybe it's just me but really? 

[Kienn]

49 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Let's not make this about Tyrion. I am asking you flat out. Open your mind and ask yourself. Do you seriously believe Eddard Stark was the mystery knight of the laughing tree.

I don't wanna be blunt but seriously? I think you are so far off the mark it's unreal. Maybe it's just me but really? 

Sure, seriously.

What's your reason for doubting that Eddard would have possibly done it?

Are you one of the people that think Eddard is too uptight and stuffy and never laughs so it can't possibly be him?

1) He does laugh, as many quotes show, even in the "present day" of AGoT.

2) He was much younger at the tourney, and it was before the war that killed his entire family, some might have called him a "summer child" at the time even.

3) His best friend was Robert "The Laughing Storm reborn" Baratheon. If you ever see a shy/reserved quiet type best friends with a loud obnoxious type, you can bet that the quiet one will inevitably participate in some risky behaviors like their friend does. They're just sneakier about it.

Or maybe you're thinking with hindsight and you think Eddard would never do anything so offensive such as entering a tourney as a mystery knight (gasp, scandalous!!).

1) Mystery knights aren't generally so scandalous, it was just Aerys' paranoia that made KotLT such a problem. Thus why KotLT didn't show up the next day. This also shows KotLT did have a cautious nature. Or else they would have come back to joust some more (like Lyanna would have).

2) Ned is often compared to Barristan for their views on honor. Barristan was mystery knight twice!

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Sure, seriously.

What's your reason for doubting that Eddard would have possibly done it?

Are you one of the people that think Eddard is too uptight and stuffy and never laughs so it can't possibly be him?

1) He does laugh, as many quotes show, even in the "present day" of AGoT.

2) He was much younger at the tourney, and it was before the war that killed his entire family, some might have called him a "summer child" at the time even.

3) His best friend was Robert "The Laughing Storm reborn" Baratheon. If you ever see a shy/reserved quiet type best friends with a loud obnoxious type, you can bet that the quiet one will inevitably participate in some risky behaviors with their friend.

Nope. I'm not one of 'those' people, whatever that may mean. I'm fully aware Ned had the ability to laugh.

As to the summer child part? He's 18, a good few years older than a man grown! Are you serious? Only Months after this Tourney he goes on a solo mission of hundreds of miles to raise banners for war. This is a serious hombre. Not a man who plays at Tourney.

Are you implying that many people knew Ned was the mystery knight?