Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Sly Wren]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I understand your take on it, i am not arguing it IS canon, i am simply saying a statement like this one on Lyanna should most definitely be classed as evidence of jousting related training even if it is semi-canon.

I can agree that it's semi-canon. But going further than that will end up in a debate that will put us in a thread like this one. 

One way or another, I absolutely agree that the novels have left open the possibility that Lyanna could have been trained.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Sly Wren said:

I can agree that it's semi-canon. But going further than that will end up in a debate that we're going to end up in a thread like this one. 

One way or another, I absolutely agree that the novels have left open the possibility that Lyanna could have been trained.

Well we dont want to derail the thread so ill settle with you for that on the matter of Lyannas jousting experience Sly Wren.

[Sly Wren]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Sorry, im kind of jumping in between you and sweetsunrays convo here, for that i apologise.

If this is true about Ned, which i agree it is very likely he would have had this training, doesnt it make the picture of Eddard Stark bungling on to the Tourney grounds in ill fitting, mismatched armor to challenge three champions sound absolutely ludicrous or is it just me.

Does Meera's account make the Knight sound bungling? Seems all rather formal to me.

As for the armor--if the knight is Howland, that makes sense.

If the Knight is Ned, Brandon, even Lyanna or Benjen; and if the Knight is hiding his identity in part to support Howland but not shame him as being unable to defend himself--the mis-matched armor and shield still work, no?

And no matter who the Knight is, seems like there's very good reason to think said Knight was fighting to shame the squires who bullied Howland.

[Sly Wren]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Well we dont want to derail the thread so ill settle with you for that on the matter of Lyannas jousting experience Sly Wren.

 Cheers, mate.

And hopefully the next book will be out very soon so we'll have more data to have fun debating about.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

Does Meera's account make the Knight sound bungling? Seems all rather formal to me.

As for the armor--if the knight is Howland, that makes sense.

If the Knight is Ned, Brandon, even Lyanna or Benjen; and if the Knight is hiding his identity in part to support Howland but not shame him as being unable to defend himself--the mis-matched armor and shield still work, no?

And no matter who the Knight is, seems like there's very good reason to think said Knight was fighting to shame the squires who bullied Howland.

The ill fitting and mismatched armor sounds bungling if it is an 18 year old man grown who can wear fitting matching armor easily no?

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 Cheers, mate.

And hopefully the next book will be out very soon so we'll have more data to have fun debating about.

I have a sneaky feeling TWOW will settle this debate quite quickly. See ya around 

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

One way or another, I absolutely agree that the novels have left open the possibility that Lyanna could have been trained.

Agreed

[NorthernXY]

Ned would make for a better story, but it's Lyanna because of her Mary Sue-ness.  GRRM has confirmed that practice riding at rings in full plate armor has little bearing on a person's ability to couch a lance in full plate armor and place your lance perfectly on another to knock them off.  That stuff takes no skill or strength, only the ability to ride a horse.  It's a set up so it doesn't sound so implausible that a teenage girl is better than men who've been training for decades.  Of course, it completely negates everything that is Brienne, a women who isn't a Mar Sue, who was mocked and ridiculed for training to become a knight, ugly, near 7' tall, muscled like a man, and not a hint of "femininity".  

Ned is somewhat the opposite of the KotLT, which is why it'd be great if he was to create a juxtaposition.  During Robert and Ned's trip south from Winterfell, Robert comments that Ned needs to laugh more.  Ned responds it gets so cold in the North that it can freeze.  Hence a Laughing Tree is the opposite sigil anybody think Ned would have.  Ned teaches Jon and Rob to have a booming battlefield voice, yet Ned is relatively clam and soft spoken.  Ned never rides or fights in tournaments, even though Brandon does.  ***In the show the first exchange Jamie and Ned have, Jamie asks why Ned never fights in tournaments.  Ned responds, "When I fight a man for real, I don't want him to know what I can do."***  Ned is so shy and lacks self confidence he needed Brandon to ask a woman to dance with him.  The sheer boldness to be the KotLT is opposite and perfect.  Ned is a shy, quiet, Northerner, opposite of the KotLT, a chance for Ned to be someone else, if only for a little while.

[maudisdottir]

Arya never showed any interest in picking up a lance (that we know of) because she was given a sword by her beloved brother, not a lance.  And if Jon had given her a lance, she could hardly have smuggled it to KL and eventually get jousting lessons after Ned discovers it.  Her attachment to Needle is wrapped up in her love for her brother, and his love for her in giving her such a thoughtful gift.

Whether Arya acts in a particular way, or doesn't, is not confirmation that Lyanna did exactly the same thing.  Yes there are obvious comparisons, but their lives are not a mirror.

And Bran's vision of Lyanna and Benjen fighting with sticks was apparently some years before the HH Tourney, if they were young enough for Bran to have mistaken them for himself and Arya.  IIRC they are only 9/10 and 7/8 or thereabouts at the beginning of AGOT.  So I don't see how this is at all relevant to how much freedom Lyanna had as a young woman to pursue her own martial interests away from her father's gaze.  And we don't know that Rickard even forbade her from tilting in the yard; only from holding a sword (that we know of).

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have a sneaky feeling TWOW will settle this debate quite quickly. See ya around 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The ill fitting and mismatched armor sounds bungling if it is an 18 year old man grown who can wear fitting matching armor easily no?

Right, but one of the things Bran thinks about during the story is how Barristan "wore the armor of a mystery knight." And, so far in the list of known mystery knights (many if not all of whom are referenced in Storm), they disguise themselves as another knight. If they wore their own armor, that would not be "the armor of a mystery knight," right?

No idea exactly what the "armor or a mystery knight" is supposed to mean, but at least one way to disguise identity would be mismatched armor, no?

52 minutes ago, NorthernXY said:

Ned is somewhat the opposite of the KotLT, which is why it'd be great if he was to create a juxtaposition.  During Robert and Ned's trip south from Winterfell, Robert comments that Ned needs to laugh more.  Ned responds it gets so cold in the North that it can freeze.  Hence a Laughing Tree is the opposite sigil anybody think Ned would have.

Or, it might have fitted Ned better at the time of the tourney. As @Kienn pointed out a few pages back, Ned apparently used to laugh more. And still does laugh at times. 

And the war that started after Harrenhal may have changed Ned a lot. 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

it's Lyanna because of her Mary Sue-ness.  GRRM has confirmed that practice riding at rings in full plate armor has little bearing on a person's ability to couch a lance in full plate armor and place your lance perfectly on another to knock them off.  That stuff takes no skill or strength, only the ability to ride a horse.  It's a set up so it doesn't sound so implausible that a teenage girl is better than men who've been training for decades.

If Lyanna is Mary Sue, so is Loras, our slender sixteen years old champion.

[Nevets]

On 9/29/2016 at 2:10 PM, Ygrain said:

 

 

Just one word: wilful. I yet have to see a wilful person not doing what they want just because their father forbade it. 

As pointed out above, Lyanna being the KotLT is the only option that connects the various dots about jousting, horsemanship, the spoilery TWOW character, secret training and unsupervised rides with her elder brother. If KotLT is not Lyanna, then why the hell GRRM bothered to include these, for shits and giggles?

I agree with this.

Also, Lyanna being the KotLT is the only option that makes sense from a story standpoint.  It gives a reason for Rhaegar and Lyanna to meet and for him to decide to declare her Queen of Love and Beauty and give her the rose.  I cannot see any story purpose to the other options, especially Ned.  Jojen's surprise that Bran has never heard the story probably stems from the fact that it involves members of the Stark family.

As far as I can tell the only reasons for being a mystery knight are that you don't want to tip off your opponent who you are (especially if you are famous) or you wouldn't be allowed to participate.  You would have to assume that your identity would eventually be revealed upon your eventual defeat, so Ned doing it to avoid embarrassing his brother, for example, doesn't work.  Howland has a potential motive to hide if he didn't want his opponents to know why he was challenging them, as their squires might mention the fight.  Lyanna and Benjen have a motive because they are ineligible.  (Benjen is underage and Lyanna is a girl) Benjen adds nothing to the story, and Ned can fight as himself if he wants to.  I go with 95% Lyanna and 5% Howland. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

So who do we think painted the shield with the image of the laughing weirwood?

sorry one of those silly nagging questions I have, I mean the mismatched armor could be collected from wherever, but someone had to make the heraldry

[J. Stargaryen]

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And Jousting is also clearly tied to extensive training.

We know that some jousters train extensively. So there is a connection, but not necessarily a requirement. Whereas we are told that one must be a great horseman before they can be a great jouster. So there is both a link and a requirement between jousting and horsemanship. Further, we are told by Jaime Lannister that jousting is 3/4 horsemanship. Not some jousting, but jousting itself. All jousting. In addition to these points, we are repeatedly told that Lyanna was a very skilled rider.

Since my arguments don't seem to be persuading you, I'm going to try using yours. You are fond of presenting data and then finishing up by saying something pretty reasonable like, It seems like GRRM is trying to tell us something, no? Or, It seems like maybe we shouldn't be ignoring this. How about we try applying your own standards, and/or reasoning, to the above evidence?

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Plus, if "Riding=jousting", we should assume Arya loved jousting, too, no? And. . . . can't find anything in the books on that.

No. I mean, maybe. But certainly not necessarily.

To be frank, I think you are using the Lyanna=Arya parallel as a crutch, and I fully agree with @sweetsunray that it makes for a weak argument when you present it this way.

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It's clearly possible--but just not likely.

Sure, that's an opinion.

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Right--but so far, we know Lyanna wanted a sword. And we see her pick one up at Harrenhal. And Play at sticks with Benjen--our last image of her. So far, the books keeps saying, "Lyanna loved swords. Like Arya."

But nothing about jousting. On Arya or Lyanna. Seems like that's not something to ignore.

I think the rebuttal to this has already been covered.

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Amen--that's the one hope for this theory: Fantasy. And the novel is fantasy. No way around it.

I'm going to echo what @Macgregor of the North said. Namely, that you're being unfair, and that the theory certainly has more going for it than you suggest.

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Why? It's reasonable to think she might have done. But to assume she absolutely has? Why on earth assume that based on what we've been told and shown about her?

I think you're misunderstanding me, and I think this stems from your repeated attempts to frame parts of this discussion in a way that's not really useful; probabilities, odds, etc. We can certainly ask the question of whether or not it is likely that Lyanna ever trained with a lance. But once we conclude that she might have, and I think we have enough to make that relatively small leap, then we can reasonably assume that she did. I'm not talking in absolute terms, but at least for the sake of discussion. In my experience, almost all theories make a leap of at least this size somewhere along the way.

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Not "definitely didn't"--but without any evidence that she didn't, assume it's unlikely that she did.

Following up on what I said above, odds don't really exist in fictional stories. Things either happened or they didn't. In fact, defying the (realistic) odds is one of the staples of storytelling, both in fiction and non-fiction. You might say that storytelling is where the unlikely goes to become commonplace.

Having said all of that, I assume that you were simply attempting to assess the likelihood of whether something did or did not happen. Fair enough. But in this context, an evidence-based argument that she reasonably might have carries a lot more weight than, unlikely because we didn't see it happen. Again, that's not to say that she definitively did, but that for the sake of discussion, or as it relates to the theory, we have more than enough to make this relatively small leap, and move forward.

I have a feeling that the reason you're quite attached to this likely/unlikely argument, is because you're plenty smart enough to realize that there's no good reason for Lyanna to have been a master horse rider, who also trained at jousting, unless she jousted at some point. And if she did joust at some point, it was as the KotLT.

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Perhaps. Though featured less than Howland. And his motive is HUGE.

His motive for revenge is huge. But Lyanna's motive to disguise her identity would be even bigger than Howland's. It was an absolute necessity for her to even compete in the lists.

---

I wanted to address something about semi-canon sources. I find it somewhat strange that anyone would lend more credence to speculation based upon an uncertain premise, than the plainly written information of the app. For example, you have repeatedly argued that Lyanna probably didn't train at jousting because Arya doesn't appear to have been interested in jousting. Yet the app states for everyone to see that Lyanna trained at jousting. Why on earth should we consider the former more likely, and/or credible, than the latter?

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So who do we think painted the shield with the image of the laughing weirwood?

sorry one of those silly nagging questions I have, I mean the mismatched armor could be collected from wherever, but someone had to make the heraldry

The guard's sister at Duskendale perhaps

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Also, Lyanna being the KotLT is the only option that makes sense from a story standpoint.  It gives a reason for Rhaegar and Lyanna to meet and for him to decide to declare her Queen of Love and Beauty and give her the rose.  I cannot see any story purpose to the other options, especially Ned.  Jojen's surprise that Bran has never heard the story probably stems from the fact that it involves members of the Stark family.

I don't think they necessarily met, if Lyanna was KotLT. The knight had an armor gathered together of bits and pieces. So, it must have been gathered from several men, squires and warriors/knights at Harrenhal. I think the reason Jojen is surprised that Ned never told his children, is because it was a public secret amongst many who were there. Just the more prominent knights were ignorant of it, like KG, Robert, and of course the knights that were to be challenged. Those squires msut have been pricks to several people there. I suspect the HR prayer is poignant not because there was a mystery knight who defeated the bosses of those squires, but because the knight appeared in amassed armor, given by several who knew of the incident and offered to help. Not only would HR have felt supported by the Starks, but many boys and men there. So, Rhaegar starts to ask around, and eventually someone fessed up, and why. He gave them the message to inform the KotLT not to reappear the next day. He held a mock-search and found the shield. And then he crowned her. The crowning especially works if he did not speak to her personally before that imo, nor captured her personally as the KotLT. 

[Free folk Daemon]

22 hours ago, Makk said:

I think its implied that Lyana is the Knight of the Laughing tree because if she was it gives significant meaning to the story, whereas if it was someone else, it would seemingly be a pointless addition and waste of words.

I don't think examining all the other evidence is useful. You would come to the conclusion that it could have been her or it could have been someone else. But I'm virtually certain about it just because of the implications it has for the story.

 

I think so too. Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar finding her and crowning her queen of love and beauty would link in story threads so much better imho than, for example, it was Ned and that's why Howland told Meera and Jojen the story and they were surprised Ned hadn't told Bran himself of his amazing deeds. Ned doesn't strike me as a character that would highlight his own honour/skill/bravery etc., even if he did not reveal his involvement directly.

I think Jojen and Meera wonder why Ned hadn't told Bran the story of tKotLT at Harrenhal because it was a memorable moment of the tourney, its backstory was important to both the Reeds and Starks (Howland being picked on by three squires and aided by a Stark, Lyanna before tKotLT's lists with the knights of the squires), got the attention of crowd including the king, and Ned knows Bran loves stories of knights and Bran wanted to be one, and so would likely have mentioned such a Dunk and Egg-esque tale of valour...

[Nevets]

45 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think they necessarily met, if Lyanna was KotLT. The knight had an armor gathered together of bits and pieces. So, it must have been gathered from several men, squires and warriors/knights at Harrenhal. I think the reason Jojen is surprised that Ned never told his children, is because it was a public secret amongst many who were there. Just the more prominent knights were ignorant of it, like KG, Robert, and of course the knights that were to be challenged. Those squires msut have been pricks to several people there. I suspect the HR prayer is poignant not because there was a mystery knight who defeated the bosses of those squires, but because the knight appeared in amassed armor, given by several who knew of the incident and offered to help. Not only would HR have felt supported by the Starks, but many boys and men there. So, Rhaegar starts to ask around, and eventually someone fessed up, and why. He gave them the message to inform the KotLT not to reappear the next day. He held a mock-search and found the shield. And then he crowned her. The crowning especially works if he did not speak to her personally before that imo, nor captured her personally as the KotLT. 

This makes a lot of sense and buttresses my conclusion that Lyanna is the only candidate that makes any sense.   I feel as though too many posters are treating this as a real-life mystery instead of an incident in a work of fiction.  I am very much willing to entertain a suspension of disbelief on issues such as her capabilities, so long as it seems to be marginally plausible.  This is, after all, a fantasy, albeit a fairly realistic one.  

[NorthernXY]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If Lyanna is Mary Sue, so is Loras, our slender sixteen years old champion.

Loras was a squire and guessing by his brothers, he probably started the youngest of the three.  More than likely he was very used to riding in plate armor that was made for him and not piecemealed together.

I still think the tournament was set up so Rheagar could meet Lyanna.  Blue Winter Roses were there, why would they be there to crown someone when Northerners really don't participate?  Were BWR there just in case Brandon and maybe the other couple of Northerners participating won?  Possibly, but I don't think likely because the writing made it sound like THE crown of love and beauty and not A crown of love and beauty.  The shock would have come when he picked up the BWR and not picking up Dornish flowers.

I have a theory that Lyanna took the fall for Ned.

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

This makes a lot of sense and buttresses my conclusion that Lyanna is the only candidate that makes any sense.   I feel as though too many posters are treating this as a real-life mystery instead of an incident in a work of fiction.  I am very much willing to entertain a suspension of disbelief on issues such as her capabilities, so long as it seems to be marginally plausible.  This is, after all, a fantasy, albeit a fairly realistic one.  

When I read the story as told by Meera every time, it's the gathered armor that strikes me so. It totally comes off as a group effort. That's imo part of the miracle. They thought those suqires and their nights pricks and were glad to offer something, and then they had a good laugh amongst themselves seeing those champion knights being beaten. And if it was Lyanna, they'd find it totally hilarious to see those pompous men being beaten by a girl, without knowing it. That makes it a group effort, a prank and a game (think Hyle's comment to Brienne about the game initially at Highgarden).

What do we have as info: Meera's beautifully told story (dance, the squires harrassing HR, HR's prayer, the appearance of the KotLT, the claim of unmasking, the search, Rheagar winning and crowing Lyanna), Ned's memory of the mood gone sour when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna and all the smiles die (including that of the Stark men), Selmy's memory with regards Ashara turning to a Stark.

If we assume KotLT = Lyanna, then we also have to include Loras on his grey mare with blue forget-me-nots jousting against Gregor at the Hand's Tourney in Ned's POV, Jaime's thoughts about Loras training at jousting, as well as cross references between Lyanna and Arya, and parallels (possibly reverse parallels) with Brienne.

With regards Meera's story about Lyanna coming to HR's aid agains the squires. What strikes me is Meera saying,

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"But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf.'

A how matches a she-wolf, but a "roar"? That's a lot of noise and is something I would associate with a male character. Apparently Lyanna could make a lot of noise, as much as a man, if she wanted to.

This parallels with many people mistaking Arya for a "boy". Brienne on the other hand is not noisy. She's blunt, but usually does not speak, unless truly angered. As has been pointed out, when Cat hears her speak in the greathelm she does not realize that Brienne is a woman. Brienne's greathelm voice is used as a counter-argument, because her voice is "muffled", instead of "booming". But we have to consider the differences in personality between both women and realize to whom they are speaking in the greathelm. Brienne is as shy as Podrick is. Lyanna doesn't appear to be shy at all. Brienne is speaking to Renly, who's her crush. Shy girls with a crush will not start booming their voice, they mutter and muffle their voices. Lyanna would be speaking to the defeated knights, whom she would dislike. So, with the roar, boyish reference, gender easily disguised by the greathelm, of a non-shy young woman we get a "booming voice".

For the feast we learn that HR ate and drank with the wolves (wild wolf, quiet wolf and pup) and many of their sworn swords - barrowdown, moose, bears and mermen. Lyanna is known with the men of barrowdown, since the wild wolf grew up there as a ward and Lyanna visited him there to ride. The moose men are Hornwood's men. They're so loyal to the Starks that both Lord and his heir leave with Robb in aGoT tot he South. The bears are Mormonts who have no issue with armed women. And the mermen. Wyman Manderly admires the girls of his family with spunk and are also very loyal to the Starks. I would say these are the men who helped out with the armor.

This way HR is not only backed by the Starks, but all of the northern sworn swords there. You can totally imagine them going for "hehehe, let's show those pompous "knights" what the North is made of." None of these sworn swords are mentioned to have participated at the joust. So, contributing armor would have made them all feel as if they had been part of the jousting. This works for Ned, but it becomes even a bigger prank if the KotLT is a girl. "Even our Northern women can beat those pompous "knights"". The only confirmed Northerner to have jousted in that tourney was Brandon Stark, as far as we know. And we have the parallel with Brienne at Highgarden but in reverse. Here it's not the men playing a prank on a woman, but the men helping a woman play a prank on the jousters. They might actually have also started to bet on the KotLT to be the Tourney's champion. And it also totally explains how Robert was completely oblivious to it. It was a joint effort by people who had no direct link to him. Also perfectly fits the shield: a white weirwood tree (united Northern symbol) and laughing face (a prank), laughing at the non-Northerners.

Then we get the mention of Rhaegar singing, Lyanna sniffling and dumping wine over Benjen's head. A black brother, most likely Yoren, spoke to recruit men for the Wall. Robert drinking with the Knight of Skulls and Kisses, Richard Lonmouth. Twice this pair is mentioned. So, Richard is important in this. Drinking and later on both swearing they will unmask the KotLT. But Richard used to be Rhaegar's squire and friend. As has been theorized he may have drifted from Rheagar to Robert, including taking Robert's side during the war, and is likely Lem Lemoncloak, a broken man. The one we hear nothing about though is Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, also Rhaegar's friend and said to have died during the Battle of the Bells. The whores of the Peach recognize Lem at Stoney Sept, where the Battle of the Bells was fought. With Lem as Richard and his previous comrade with Rhaegar, the bold as brass Myles Mooton dying there fighting for the Targ side, we have the mini-conflict story for Lem to be a broken man. In this case, I find the absence of Myles in Meera's tail conspicuous, especially since it's in the same book where Arya arrives at Stoney Sept and learns of the Battle of the Bells. Maidenpool is linked to Florian and Yonquil, and Florian saying "that all men are fools and knights concerning their women". Maidenpool is where Lord Tarly is taking justice matters at hand, because Myles' brother is a total coward. It's where Brienne remembers the cruel prank as well as Tarly's condemnation of her. Since it was Dickon who overheard the knights talking and told it to Tarly, it seems to me that it was Myles Mooton who overheard some of the Northern sworn swords talking of the KotLT and reported it to Rhaegar, like Dickon reported it to Tarly.

Then Meera tells about Ashara dancing with a KG, Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington and Ned Stark (after Brandon Stark speaking for him). And this is tied to an oblivious Selmy remembering HH, and if he had defeated Rhaegar he would have crowned Ashara, and then maybe she might not have looked to him instead of a Stark. Selmy doesn't remember the KotLT much and seems somewhat thick on certain issues. He wasn't a confidant in Rhaegar's circle, not at HH, nor afterwards. Me I'm thinking that Ashara was the messenger to warn the KotLT. Mooton overheard the Northern sworn swords laughing over their prank and told Rhaegar. Can't have the crown prince trying to meet with the Starks himself, because that would be way too noticeable, certainly with Varys and Aerys having appeared suspecting treason. But Ashara had danced with Ned Stark, and since she's his wife's companion, he can send her to deliver the warning of danger. Ashara imo was the middle woman, who either passed the warning to Ned or to Lyanna directly. Her seeking out a Stark at their tent or camp area, would have sparked gossip. Hence, the rumor mill starts turning.

So, now we come to the KotLT challenging a Blount, a Haigh and a Frey, and winning. I'm pulling in Loras at the Hand's Tourney. Gregor is not well liked, though he is a formidable foe. So, everybody cheers, hoots for Loras beating him and the Hound "laughs". Loras links to Lyanna with the grey mare, nimble as a dancer, a mare in heat, and his cloak of real forget-me-nots. He also ties to Brienne, because the horse is bedecked with "sapphires". Gregor is said to be married to his 3rd wife already. That sounds like a reference to Walder Frey, and one of the challenged knights was a Frey (not saying it was Walder, but just pointing out the link). And a sister who died young under queer circumstances, and Lyanna died young under queer circumstances too. But how does Loras win? With tricks! Not just placing his lance at the right point, but also ensuring that Gregor has no control over his stallion. Selmy wrinkles his nose at trying to win a joust in this way. Ned's idea of honor is not like that of Selmy, and he makes no remark on it. This may be why Selmy does not even bother to remember the KotLT - if he used "tricks", then Selmy would have considered him without honor. But Ned is one of the men who uses "tricks" to do the honorable. The last is a positive link for Ned with Loras, but just as well Lyanna, since Ned tells Arya that even some lies have honor. 

Loras nimble dancing mare also connects with Arya, who joins Ned and Sansa after the jousting at the Hand's Tourney "with a huge purple bruise on her leg", saying "happily" that she's "sore all over", and Sansa saying doubtfully that she must be a "terrible dancer". Here we have Arya as stand in for Lyanna as the KotLT who was probably sore all over, being happy with her bruises and soreness, for she had defeated the 3 knights (though she had to resort to tricks), who was a great "horserider". And Arya also mentions she'll be chasing cats the following day, while we have Jaime thinking of "cats" with regards to jousting as he watches Loras train.

Anyhow, Ashara's warning puts an end to any further possible aspirations the KotLT may have had. Rhaegar finds the shield, wins the tourney and wishes to give Lyanna some credit but it gets completely misinterpreted.