Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Macgregor of the North]

Another thing I'm in the mood to be picky about. 

The exact app text states:

"She was a skilled horsewoman, and practiced at tilting at rings"

After rereading the last couple pages of the thread, it seems people think the app says that she practiced tilting rings.

Nope. The actual text is stating she is 'practiced' at it. Meaning she was damn good at it.

Like:

skilled or expert; proficient through practice or experience.

Not something someone would just throw in an app on a whim, this is specific new info that Lyanna was actually very good at tilting at rings.

[Darkstream]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm gonna hazard a guess here and assume some people actually have some kind of issue with this app? Why is beyond me. Maybe they hate the idea of having to actually pay for some extra info from GRRMS world. Like it's all became some kind of money making machine and they don't like that etc etc. 

Its a few quid!

I have a major  issue with the app. Why? Not because i have a problem paying a few quid. (hehe, quid, that makes me laugh for some reason). But why is it not available in Canada? This really pisses me off. Does anyone know if there are plans to make it available in the countries that you can't get it in?

[Macgregor of the North]

38 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I have a major  issue with the app. Why? Not because i have a problem paying a few quid. (hehe, quid, that makes me laugh for some reason). But why is it not available in Canada? This really pisses me off. Does anyone know if there are plans to make it available in the countries that you can't get it in?

Nightmare for you . The app is awesome. 

Im sure I read somewhere it was android only in the US or something, who knows, I just have it on my iPhone.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

53 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I have a major  issue with the app. Why? Not because i have a problem paying a few quid. (hehe, quid, that makes me laugh for some reason). But why is it not available in Canada? This really pisses me off. Does anyone know if there are plans to make it available in the countries that you can't get it in?

I read the threads about the app while it was not rolled out in my country, saved some money then.

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

I have a major  issue with the app. Why? Not because i have a problem paying a few quid. (hehe, quid, that makes me laugh for some reason). But why is it not available in Canada? This really pisses me off. Does anyone know if there are plans to make it available in the countries that you can't get it in?

Weird.  I'm in British Columbia and I had no problems getting the app. 

[Clegane'sPup]

It's gonna be interesting to watch the roll out of the interactive ibooks and what new material they offer.

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Weird.  I'm in British Columbia and I had no problems getting the app. 

Really? Might I ask when you got it?

I'm on Android, and when I tried to download it a message popped up saying that it was not available in my country. I haven't tried in about a year though, perhaps it's available now.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Give the app some rest. Its additional content is secondary, and not essential to this theory. Lyanna being KOTLT has been argued at least as early as 2006 (years before the app; a year before the iPhone, even), and even then it seems to be a widely known, established theory.

We don't build "Lyanna is KOTLT" on that single additional line. It just helps some, is all, but the theory does perfectly well without it. We inferred "she practiced with lance" from "willful, free spirit, outstanding rider, a bit of a tomboy with noticeable affinity for weapons".

[Macgregor of the North]

31 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Give the app some rest. Its additional content is secondary, and not essential to this theory. Lyanna being KOTLT has been argued at least as early as 2006 (years before the app; a year before the iPhone, even), and even then it seems to be a widely known, established theory.

We don't build "Lyanna is KOTLT" on that single additional line. It just helps some, is all, but the theory does perfectly well without it. We inferred "she practiced with lance" from "willful, free spirit, outstanding rider, a bit of a tomboy with noticeable affinity for weapons".

Nobody has said the theory is built round that single line.

Earlier in the thread there was point blank dismissal of any evidence whatsoever that Lyanna had trained with the Lance ever.

The apps semi canon evidence was submitted to dispute that. 

And it is not that 'she practiced with lance', it says she is 'practiced at tilting at rings', meaning she is actually very skilled through a lot of practice. 

A statement like that, that has stood the test of time and never been removed when plenty other mistakes have, is basicallly (IMO) damn close to a confirmation that Lyanna was the Kotlt, semi canon or not.

Your correct in this though, nearly everybody had it figured out without the app, well except the ones who thought it was Ned.

[White Ravens]

8 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Really? Might I ask when you got it?

I'm on Android, and when I tried to download it a message popped up saying that it was not available in my country. I haven't tried in about a year though, perhaps it's available now.

 

I use the app on an iPod and I downloaded it about 2 1/2 years ago. 

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The app's text was written by Ran and Linda, and confirmed to have been a project GRRM worked on together with them.

They do not 'make things up for this app', that's a ridiculous notion. 

It has been confirmed as approved by GRRM and that he personally worked on the project.

Its confirmed he has literally answered hundreds of questions specifically for the app on long Q&A sessions. 

There are confirmed new details added to entries. Newer than the published books, and never ever confirmed before.

In the four years, the app has saw plenty mistakes fixed but the text stating Lyanna was "practiced at tilting at rings" remains even after all this time.

George, Ran and co. all know it's there and seem happy with it. It's not made up and everything officially stated about the app seems to point to it actually being one of these new details that are buried in there that Ran and Linda never knew until they asked him in the Q&A's.

Sure, the app is semi canon, but it stems from GRRM and sneaky details in it like the one we are talking about are certainly not made up because Ran thought it may have been a cool detail to add. That shit makes me chuckle. 

Heres my sources:

 

From not a blog:

"So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch."

From Westeros.org:

"Now, the origins of it… the name of the app is no coincidence, given that it shares its title with the book that we’re co-writing with GRRM. In fact, a good part of the content in the app was originally slated for said book. However, that book has more than enough content already planned, between the histories, the family trees, the art, the maps ... and truth be told, the book seemed the best place to focus on the setting as opposed to the characters. Somewhere along the way, the app idea came up. "

"The vast majority of the app really only restates, in more concise form, details that are scattered across the novels; many things you might think are new are just things you’ve forgotten or didn’t quite piece together, in other words! But there are some new details buried in there, both minor and not-so-minor, thanks to a long, long Q&A with GRRM that provided us quite a few details that have never been confirmed before."

 

So it won't be difficult to get the truth behind a very,very simple matter.You may not need to know,care to know and that's fine.For me its an issue.I'm sorry, hate to be that person but what can i say "circumstances made me what i am."

10 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

What makes you so confident that it was not written by him? We have no way to verify what exactly was written by him and what wasn't - what we do have is the confirmation that GRRM indeed did provide some details for the app (quote given by Macgregor above.) So wouldn't it be better to err on the side of the default position - that the information that "Lyanna was practiced tilting at rings" could very well have been from him?

Is there some kind of disconnect somewhere? I said looking for confirmation of a particular bit of info from the app.

So based on the above info  it would be very,very,very simple to confirm if

"GRRM" himself told Ran that "Lyanna was practiced at tilting rings" and he put it in the app.

That's a rather big gem,something that in my mind based on what the info is,would be pretty easy to come up with an answer.

I don't know about you,but i don't think there's anythimg wrong with that kind of transparency.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Is there some kind of disconnect somewhere? I said looking for confirmation of a particular bit of info from the app.

So based on the above info  it would be very,very,very simple to confirm if

"GRRM" himself told Ran that "Lyanna was practiced at tilting rings" and he put it in the app.

That's a rather big gem,something that in my mind based on what the info is,would be pretty easy to come up with an answer.

I don't know about you,but i don't think there's anythimg wrong with that kind of transparency.

In that case, if it's possible to get Ran himself to weigh in and clarify on this thread it might shed more light on the matter.

[Macgregor of the North]

@wolfmaid7

Its pretty clear after everything said that Ran and Linda wrote the text that accompanies the app from GRRMS own information given over countless interviews etc, and GRRM would have been answering from his own memory and from his own notes, cos you know, with a cast as big as his he needs to write things down.

So aside from the physical task of actually sitting down to type the text, GRRM pretty much did write the app since he is the creator of Its story content.

You know GRRM was busy with other things so he couldn't actually do it himself but he entrusted it to very close friends, friends who have asked a thousand more questions than we ever could(and got the answers direct!), friends who would never, could never!, just 'make up' such a statement like Lyanna Stark was "practiced at tilting at rings", which means she never just practiced sometimes but she was actually very very good at it, as that would be pure disrespect to GRRM in the first place.

Could you imagine your friends taking liberties like just 'making up' massive bits of information like this one about your life's work and throwing it in whenever they fancied? 

No, im sure you can't. 

Lyanna being "practiced at tilting at rings" came from GRRM himself, rest assured

 

[Free folk Daemon]

On 06/10/2016 at 7:25 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Give the app some rest. Its additional content is secondary, and not essential to this theory. Lyanna being KOTLT has been argued at least as early as 2006 (years before the app; a year before the iPhone, even), and even then it seems to be a widely known, established theory.

We don't build "Lyanna is KOTLT" on that single additional line. It just helps some, is all, but the theory does perfectly well without it. We inferred "she practiced with lance" from "willful, free spirit, outstanding rider, a bit of a tomboy with noticeable affinity for weapons".

In the 2006 link saw Ran's post mentioning speculation about Lyanna possibly having ridden at rings:

'It has been speculated, however, that her skill as a horsewoman (noted by Harwin in ASoS) may in part may be due to having trained at riding at rings, and perhaps even the quintain.'

Here's a link to the full post:

I wonder if Elio (Ran) and Linda asked GRRM about this then the 3 of them decided to put in the line about Lyanna being 'practised at riding at rings' in the app? Merely speculating

I agree with Little Scribe of Naath that if Ran would confirm GRRM's decision/approval of Lyanna's skill/practice at rings being canon, it would really add weight to the argument that Lyanna could have been tKotLT, for we would have a detail that would make us think she had confidence from relevant practice (jousting against an opponent aside) to joust at the tourney on Howland's behalf. Not that Lyanna sounds like a person who lacks confidence.

Then again, as much as GRRM seems to ground the books in a great amount of medieval tradition and reflects many, many historical realities in the books from culture to historical events and figures, I want to make clear, the books being fiction (obviously) negates the arguments that Lyanna would not have enough skill and experience to beat the three knights in the lists.

[Darkstream]

17 hours ago, White Ravens said:

 

I use the app on an iPod and I downloaded it about 2 1/2 years ago. 

Huh, OK thanks. I think I'll give it another try tonight. If it doesn't work for me again, my wife just might find her iPod missing.

[wolfmaid7]

15 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

In that case, if it's possible to get Ran himself to weigh in and clarify on this thread it might shed more light on the matter.

Yes,it would be nice to get if "that"info came from GRRM himself.If it was specifically told to Ran and Linda.

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@wolfmaid7

Its pretty clear after everything said that Ran and Linda wrote the text that accompanies the app from GRRMS own information given over countless interviews etc, and GRRM would have been answering from his own memory and from his own notes, cos you know, with a cast as big as his he needs to write things down.

So aside from the physical task of actually sitting down to type the text, GRRM pretty much did write the app since he is the creator of Its story content.

You know GRRM was busy with other things so he couldn't actually do it himself but he entrusted it to very close friends, friends who have asked a thousand more questions than we ever could(and got the answers direct!), friends who would never, could never!, just 'make up' such a statement like Lyanna Stark was "practiced at tilting at rings", which means she never just practiced sometimes but she was actually very very good at it, as that would be pure disrespect to GRRM in the first place.

Could you imagine your friends taking liberties like just 'making up' massive bits of information like this one about your life's work and throwing it in whenever they fancied? 

No, im sure you can't. 

Lyanna being "practiced at tilting at rings" came from GRRM himself, rest assured

 

@WeaselPie had asked GRRM concerning what was canon and what wasn't.We know his answer; notably that the unreliable narrator was in effect employed.Per that extensive quote you provided by Ran i'm made even stronger in my convictions.

If as Ran states and you state the Info in the app was suppose to be in the WB.It was suppose to be in a book where we know the narrator's info is unreliable per GRRM.Now said info is in an app packed without said narration as "bio?"

You can't see any conflict there at all? Can you see the issue some are having?

[Macgregor of the North]

42 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yes,it would be nice to get if "that"info came from GRRM himself.If it was specifically told to Ran and Linda.

@WeaselPie had asked GRRM concerning what was canon and what wasn't.We know his answer; notably that the unreliable narrator was in effect employed.Per that extensive quote you provided by Ran i'm made even stronger in my convictions.

If as Ran states and you state the Info in the app was suppose to be in the WB.It was suppose to be in a book where we know the narrator's info is unreliable per GRRM.Now said info is in an app packed without said narration as "bio?"

You can't see any conflict there at all? Can you see the issue some are having?

Can't really see the issue to be honest. The World book ended up more about general history and setting etc from a narrators point of view. Character bios wouldn't actually work as why would we believe that some Maester named Yandel knows all the details about everybody from each house, especially Lords daughters etc.

What were given instead is even better. Something written by Ran and Linda, not made up, or written by some Maester, but actually taken straight from the mouth of the man who created the whole WOIAF. GRRM, and put into text. 

[Sly Wren]

On October 2, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

@Sly Wren

Since you don't seem to feel the KOTLT is Lyanna, who do you think it is? 

I waffle--I can see the logic for Lyanna, but at present, Ned seems more likely.

The key point for me seems to be that whoever the knight was, Rhaegar figured out that it was a Stark. And was not pleased. That point seems workable regardless of which Stark it was.

On October 3, 2016 at 2:50 AM, sweetsunray said:

The game with Brienne didn't include all knights present at Highgarden either, certainly not at the start. It takes one bear (have female fighters), one moose, one from Barrowdown (know her well) and one merman to help out, and they're not necessarily the high profile men. It's still a group effort, with someone of the bannermen helping out by giving equipment.

Definitely possible.

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And why would bannermen "choose" which Stark would ride?

Well, I'm assuming they wouldn't want to tick off their Lord Rickard.

And if the other Starks were in on it (as seems likely), I could see Benjen deferring to Lyanna. But Brandon's attitudes towards women (in the limited sample we've been given) seem less than enlightened. 

And Ned seems genuinely surprised at how much Arya loves her training. Seems certain she'll get tired of it. That all she'd want are the basics. If Lyanna had gone as far with it as she did, seems like Ned should be more open to the idea that his daughter (who is wolf-blooded like her aunt) might also be willing to not give up on her training.

Just seems like if the Starks were in on it, they might choose the rider most likely to win.

Quote

It starts with a volunteer, and some helping out. Starts with a few as a gag, more curious than certain.

Agreed--it would depend on who was involved. But if Lyanna did it alone with banner men, I could see them being worried about angering her father.

[Sly Wren]

On October 5, 2016 at 11:02 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Let's try it another way: How do you explain the data points I've mentioned?

They are one of the reasons I waffle on who the Knight was--I do see the logic for it.

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Why does GRRM repeatedly tell us that Lyanna was an excellent rider, and also tell us that jousting is mostly riding? Do you think that's just coincidence?

I don't think it's coincidence. Somewhat to your point--the convo Arya has with Ned Dayne (a convo I think is very important for other reasons, too)--he tells her that he won a prize riding at rings. She says that she "never learned the lance." Says it without making it sound as though learning it was unlikely.

But, at the same time, I also don't think it's a coincidence that we're told and shown that good fighters and tourney fighters are trained.

Or a coincidence that even after telling Arya she's like Lyanna, Ned is surprised at how far she's going with her training. Maybe he didn't know that Lyanna was the Knight (if she was). But if he did know, seems odd he'd be surprised Arya was so gung-ho for her training.

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Lyanna wasn't supposed to play at swords, yet she did it anyway. The takeaway from that re: lances, is that her father's word wouldn't have stopped her from picking one up if she wanted to. And knowing what we know about Lyanna, that she loved riding and had martial interests, picking up a lance seems like a natural progression.

Yes--played at swords with sticks. Broken branches. Not with actual swords.

Could she have also picked up branches and ridden with them? Sure (though we don't have that yet). But just as broken branch training is a far cry from real sword training (as we see with Arya), so with riding with a branch vs. riding with a lance and knocking a man off a horse. Much less three champions.

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Saying that GRRM has said he doesn't like some fantasy tropes is another way of saying that he does like some of them. So...

Sure, until he needs arrows to travel 700+ft, then that is what happens. Plus, jousting at tourneys isn't really fighting.

Agreed. But it's still knocking three champions--grown men--off their horses.

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That's true. The motive to enter as a mystery knight is to hide your identity. And among the suspects for the KotLT, Lyanna had the strongest motive to do just that.

Depends on what the motive was. If Ned felt compelled to help fulfill Howland's prayer, that would be plenty of motive to hide. And all of the mystery knights we get mentioned in Storm--one way or another, their motive drove them to hide. So, "who had the most reason to hide" might not tell us who actually did.

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There were mistakes in the app that were fixed. Yet the bit about Lyanna tilting at rings remains. Also, as mentioned up thread, the app was advertised as containing new bits of info.

Yes--but unless I've misunderstood that thread, the found mistakes were found in large part because readers compared the app to the existing text.

But since we have no mention of Lyanna's riding or not riding at rings, we have no way to tell if this is another mistake (like the other mistakes that got through--which I assume were not all in Martin's notes or all run by him on lunch breaks) until it's brought up in the books.

Thanks to @Free folk Daemon, we do know that the idea that Lyanna rode at rings had been floated for years before the app came out. And floated by the app writers.

But we don't know if that idea got into the app because it was a popular theory, a mistake, or if it's what Martin intended. Not yet, anyway.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yes,it would be nice to get if "that"info came from GRRM himself.If it was specifically told to Ran and Linda.

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@WeaselPie had asked GRRM concerning what was canon and what wasn't.We know his answer; notably that the unreliable narrator was in effect employed.Per that extensive quote you provided by Ran i'm made even stronger in my convictions.

If as Ran states and you state the Info in the app was suppose to be in the WB.It was suppose to be in a book where we know the narrator's info is unreliable per GRRM.Now said info is in an app packed without said narration as "bio?"

You can't see any conflict there at all? Can you see the issue some are having?

Yup.

Plus we now have the post showing that the idea of riding at rings has been floated by years. Even by the app writers. And we know that mistakes got into the app--completely reasonable that they would, given the mammoth amount of detail that was being put together.

But that also means we don't know how much to trust the riding at rings in the app--not yet. Until we get an SSM or a book confirmation, we're limited on how to assess it. 

This just seems like an argument we're unlikely to solve until we get the next book.

16 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

In that case, if it's possible to get Ran himself to weigh in and clarify on this thread it might shed more light on the matter.

Agreed--That would be really helpful.