Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

- Though I'd say that her brothers, if present, figured out in no time :-)

 

Could help contribute to explaining the reactions of Brandon and Ned to Rhaegar's crowning of her later.

[Angus Thermopyle]

@Ygrain That makes sense . Thanks . 

[ravenous reader]

37 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

All objections I've seen to it being Lyanna are absurd. People are making too many assumptions about the description that TKOTLT "spoke in a Booming Voice through his helm." For one, "they heard a roar" and "howled the she-wolf" were used to describe Lyanna earlier in the same story. Second, the story and language is being related by children of Howland Reed, not witnesses to the events. Aerys himself was convinced it was Jaime Lannister who, while skilled enough to be raised up to the KG, was still just a fifteen year old boy. Not someone the size of an adult Crannogman who was smaller than teenage northerners, nor someone the size of a grown adult Ned Stark.

Good points, although I would caution you not to base a rational argument on Aerys's renowned irrationality!  He saw a laughing face and in his paranoia jumped to the immediate conclusion it was a sign of treachery directed at him personally from Tywin; I doubt he paused to assess the knight's dimensions or voice.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

Good points, although I would caution you not to base a rational argument on Aerys's renowned irrationality!  He saw a laughing face and in his paranoia jumped to the immediate conclusion it was a sign of treachery directed at him personally from Tywin; I doubt he paused to assess the knight's dimensions or voice.

Aerys's was always insane. He seemed to be skeptical that everyone was going to try to take his power and in the end his paranoia led to his downfall.

[Bael's Bastard]

I am certainly not basing it entirely on Aerys' opinion, just adding Aerys' assumptions to the other information. All of it seem to point to a fiery minor with the pertinent skills. 

[Guest jasonothegreat]

Okay wait, I had no idea people questioned this??? I thought it obviously Howland Reed, I haven't read any of the snippits for the sixth book as I want to read it whole but I mean... First off, Short Stature, Howland Reed is a Crannogman, who are described as very short and not people who tend to where heavy armour, this already checks off Two of the requirements to make Howland the KotLT. Then it was said that it was a crannogman who was bullied and beat up by the squires, or at least heavily implied. as Howland is a man of honour I doubt he would kill underage squires. Then he disappears after beating the Knights who the squires squired for. Howland has been described the perfect warrior, It was he and Ned Only after all who survived the Tower of Joy, and Ned only survived because of Howland Reed. It should not come as a shock he knows how to ride a horse well. Also if Lyanna or Ned were missing from the stands that would be VERY VERY noticeable. "Oh hey one of the most powerful Lord's children are missing from the stands, WHAT GREAT DISHONOUR." Whereas Howland is a rather unknown Lord who never left his swamps before that day. 

As well, Lyanna was being courted at that time by the obsessive Robert, Who I doubt would let her out of his site for more than an hour

If it were Ned as some others were describing then remember Ser Barristan the Bold was jealously watching Ned at this time as Ned was courting Ashara Dayne! 

The only possible answer that I can see is Howland Reed

Fight Me...:P 

[Darkstream]

8 minutes ago, jasonothegreat said:

Also if Lyanna or Ned were missing from the stands that would be VERY VERY noticeable. "Oh hey one of the most powerful Lord's children are missing from the stands, WHAT GREAT DISHONOUR." 

There was no uproar at the fact that Arya did not attend the tourney of the Hand. And if I recall correctly, Ned initially was not going to let Sansa attend either.

As well, you can't expect a person to be present throughout every tilt in a tournament that last throughout the whole day, for several days. I'm sure there were several people in attendance that were not in the stands at all times during the tournament.

[Darkstream]

35 minutes ago, jasonothegreat said:

 Howland has been described the perfect warrior, 

What???? 

Quote please.

... actually, never mind. The only thing that can come from me asking you to provide a quote to back this up is the the same type of fiasco that came from asking for a quote to prove that Ned had a booming voice.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

31 minutes ago, jasonothegreat said:

Okay wait, I had no idea people questioned this??? I thought it obviously Howland Reed, I haven't read any of the snippits for the sixth book as I want to read it whole but I mean... First off, Short Stature, Howland Reed is a Crannogman, who are described as very short and not people who tend to where heavy armour, this already checks off Two of the requirements to make Howland the KotLT. Then it was said that it was a crannogman who was bullied and beat up by the squires, or at least heavily implied. as Howland is a man of honour I doubt he would kill underage squires. Then he disappears after beating the Knights who the squires squired for. Howland has been described the perfect warrior, It was he and Ned Only after all who survived the Tower of Joy, and Ned only survived because of Howland Reed. It should not come as a shock he knows how to ride a horse well. Also if Lyanna or Ned were missing from the stands that would be VERY VERY noticeable. "Oh hey one of the most powerful Lord's children are missing from the stands, WHAT GREAT DISHONOUR." Whereas Howland is a rather unknown Lord who never left his swamps before that day. 

As well, Lyanna was being courted at that time by the obsessive Robert, Who I doubt would let her out of his site for more than an hour

If it were Ned as some others were describing then remember Ser Barristan the Bold was jealously watching Ned at this time as Ned was courting Ashara Dayne! 

The only possible answer that I can see is Howland Reed

Fight Me...

Nope. You read this thread instead, why it's not Howland has been already explained. You address those arguments, instead of forcing people to rewrite the same arguments in the same thread.

 

[Gertrude]

I know I am super late to this party and this point has been gone over before, but Lyanna's voice could boom. Whenever I see people saying a female's voice couldn't take on that quality, I think back to my cheerleading days. That's exactly what we did. It wasn't taught, it was a thing you pick up if you want to have a voice the next day. You shout from your chest (diaphragm?), not throat, and that changes the voice considerably.

[Guest jasonothegreat]

48 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

What???? 

Quote please.

... actually, never mind. The only thing that can come from me asking you to provide a quote to back this up is the the same type of fiasco that came from asking for a quote to prove that Ned had a booming voice.

Okay sorry it wasn't that obvious but lets look at Howland Reed's accomplishments

Unfortunately the Westerosi Wiki isn't working for me so I will be working from Memory

He killed two Kingsguard Knights, Who are described as the best of the best, especially when you look at how each of King Aerys White Knights were described, (You have to agree that was probably the best lineup the Kingsguard had since Aegon the Conqueror himself)

I believe it was mentioned he trained his Daughter who can very much hold her own. Meera is probably one of the best Female warriors in the seven kingdoms currently that we've seen (Obviously behind Brienne and the Older Mormont sisters) So since her training was never completed it is very likely that Howland has great skill. I also believe Ned did say he would have died without Howland, which we can take as meaning he is a better warrior than Ned, who was described as being able to hold his own, even against Robert, who in his prime was one of the most powerful Knights. So with this order of Skill we can Say Howland if not one of the best in the Seven Kingdoms is at least one of the Best in the North

 

[Guest jasonothegreat]

54 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nope. You read this thread instead, why it's not Howland has been already explained. You address those arguments, instead of forcing people to rewrite the same arguments in the same thread.

 

I'm simply saying the arguments don't make much sense to me, I mean, GRRM has put multiple little hidden plots, but I doubt this is one of them,

[Guest jasonothegreat]

6 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I know I am super late to this party and this point has been gone over before, but Lyanna's voice could boom. Whenever I see people saying a female's voice couldn't take on that quality, I think back to my cheerleading days. That's exactly what we did. It wasn't taught, it was a thing you pick up if you want to have a voice the next day. You shout from your chest (diaphragm?), not throat, and that changes the voice considerably.

A Woman's voice can certainly boom but it is distinctive to man's, unless Lyanna made her voice go lower and then boomed her voice (Which i think would sound suspicious) it would sound different to a man's lower voice. Lower Octaves carry farther... or something along those lines

[Gertrude]

I've never considered Howland as anything above competent as a warrior because nothing in the books really indicates it one way or the other. All Howland had to do to save Ned's life is distract Dayne at a crucial moment and that is much different that being a great fighter. I also don't know what weapons Howland uses, but Meera prefers the net and trident. I don't think it's a stretch to think Howland might as well. If that's the case, then it's even easier for Howland to cause that distraction.

And sure, Howland faces two other Kinsguard, but he didn't do it alone. It was seven on three (I think?). Does it specifically say he killed two Kingsguard knights, or did he just happen to be the one to survive the melee? Perhaps it's because he was considered the least threat and thus wasn't focused on. So many ways to interpret the fight at the ToJ, and I don't think you can say it was because Howland was a great warrior. I think his size and his home being a swamp (not conducive for traditional knightly pursuits) point to him probably not having a traditional skillset that would make him a great warrior/jouster/swordsman.

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, jasonothegreat said:

As well, Lyanna was being courted at that time by the obsessive Robert, Who I doubt would let her out of his site for more than an hour

That part made me LOL.  

[Bael's Bastard]

Consider the source, Howland Reed's children relating what Howland told them. They also describe Lyanna earlier as roaring and howling. It is not as if her voice couldn't have boomed through her helm. And after all, this is all just from Howland's perspective, who most certainly knew the identity of TKOTLT. The only other perspective we hear about is that of Aerys II, who thought it was fifteen year old Jaime Lannister.

[Bael's Bastard]

Who says Howland ever killed a Kingsguard? I don't recall that. I don't recall hearing of a single person Howland has killed. Just that Ned says Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland, which need not have anything to do with skilled fighting. I am sure Howland is very skilled in the ways of his people. But not in the ways of the "big people" of Westeros. Lyanna is shown to have been a skilled rider, to have disregarded any idea that females should not be skilled at sword fighting, and no doubt disregarded similar ideas about other things females were expected to refrain from.

[maudisdottir]

And Meera isn't noted to be a warrior either.  She's a skilled hunter and good with her spear, and obviously she is able to protect Bran and Jojen, but there's nothing in the text about her skill at jousting or fighting with a sword like Brienne.  Howland is also never noted as a great fighter.  If anything, it's hinted that he helped Ned defeat Arthur in a less than honourable way.

If Howland was TKotLT, why did Lyanna need to defend him in the first place?

[Guest jasonothegreat]

24 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I've never considered Howland as anything above competent as a warrior because nothing in the books really indicates it one way or the other. All Howland had to do to save Ned's life is distract Dayne at a crucial moment and that is much different that being a great fighter. I also don't know what weapons Howland uses,

And sure, Howland faces two other Kinsguard, but he didn't do it alone. It was seven on three (I think?). Does it specifically say he killed two Kingsguard knights,

 just happen to be the one to survive the melee?

Perhaps it's because he was considered the least threat and thus wasn't focused on. So many ways to interpret the fight at the ToJ, and I don't think you can say it was because Howland was a great warrior. I think his size and his home being a swamp (not conducive for traditional knightly pursuits) point to him probably not having a traditional skillset that would make him a great warrior/jouster/swordsman.

A man defeating and killing two of the Greatest Knights based on luck, doesn't seem likely, As well he, Ned, specifically chose his six companions to accompany him to the ToJ (Or at least it is implied,) So I doubt that he would choose average day to day swordsmen when for all he knew his sister's life was on the line. I think it would be safe to assume the six other men were some of the most trusted and best warriors in the North. While I agree there were many ways to interpret the fight, I believe that for the reasons you said, about Howland having a different warriors training is why he is probably a great warrior 

[Darkstream]

55 minutes ago, jasonothegreat said:

He killed two Kingsguard Knights, 

What????

Quote please.

Quote

Meera is probably one of the best Female warriors in the seven kingdoms currently that we've seen 

What????

Quote please.

Yes, Meera has been taught by her father to fight with a net and a three pronged frog spear. She is a fine hunter, able to easily spear fish. This in no way coralates to her being one of the best female warriors in the Seven Kingdoms, or to her being skilled as a jouster.

Quote

 I also believe Ned did say he would have died without Howland, which we can take as meaning he is a better warrior than Ned, who was described as being able to hold his own, even against Robert, who in his prime was one of the most powerful Knights. So with this order of Skill we can Say Howland if not one of the best in the Seven Kingdoms is at least one of the Best in the North

 

No, that does not mean he was a better warrior than Ned. You have no idea what Howland did to save Ned's life.