Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Yep yep, I'm sure you'll work on it when the time is right. I basically wanted to say that it seems like a fruitful topic and one which a lot of people would enjoy. It's a fairly contained idea - you could make it a stand alone thing which anyone could read without being familiar with your other theories if you chose. Anyone who has read Dante would see that title and be intrigued, so it could have a broad appeal. It sounds like it's very specific and detailed, so the corrections will be undeniable and clear. I think it's very useful to find clear examples of Martin doing things like this just to really cement the idea in people's minds that Martin is indeed writing on a highly symbolic level... pretty much all the time. All of us theorists on the birds take this as a basic assumption, but more casual fans need to be convinced that it is appropriate to attempt to interpret his writing in the metaphorical and symbolic fashion that we all do. Therefore it's useful to be able to whip out references to an essay which shows Brienne retracing Dante's Inferno, or any of the great Arthurian parallels @Lady Gwynhyfvar and others have analyzed, things people can easily recognize without having to be waist deep in the backstory of ASOIAF and the popular fan theories. 

@sweetsunray

You are correct, LmL. An essay like that would do more for elevating aSoIaF then the TV Show ever could. An analysis like that could put this series on par with classical literature. 

[Pain killer Jane]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

...and Harrenhall is a prime symbol of the destroyed moon - burned and blackened in dragonfire. Now it looks like a burned hand, and burned ghosts run around inside it, including our favorite dark heart / ghost in Harrenhall / Nightwolf / etc, Arya.

So again we have the curse / miasma / foul humors emanating from a black moon meteor symbol. 

[sweetsunray]

13 hours ago, LmL said:

Yep yep, I'm sure you'll work on it when the time is right. I basically wanted to say that it seems like a fruitful topic and one which a lot of people would enjoy. It's a fairly contained idea - you could make it a stand alone thing which anyone could read without being familiar with your other theories if you chose. Anyone who has read Dante would see that title and be intrigued, so it could have a broad appeal. It sounds like it's very specific and detailed, so the corrections will be undeniable and clear. I think it's very useful to find clear examples of Martin doing things like this just to really cement the idea in people's minds that Martin is indeed writing on a highly symbolic level... pretty much all the time. All of us theorists on the birds take this as a basic assumption, but more casual fans need to be convinced that it is appropriate to attempt to interpret his writing in the metaphorical and symbolic fashion that we all do. Therefore it's useful to be able to whip out references to an essay which shows Brienne retracing Dante's Inferno, or any of the great Arthurian parallels @Lady Gwynhyfvar and others have analyzed, things people can easily recognize without having to be waist deep in the backstory of ASOIAF and the popular fan theories. 

Like I said, I need to do a complete reread of your series, I can't remember what I have read and not. It would be nice if they were available in audio format, you know. It's not like recording and editing an hour and a half of audio is time consuming or anything *collpses into hysterical laughter*

Yes, you are correct that it is very much a contained essay and certainly would show a literary re-evaluation of Brienne's RL plot arc.

As for convincing people about his use of symbolism. I think many long-time readers know he uses symbolism, but not everybody is interested in it, and a few seem allergic to it. In fact I recall a negative response to me linking Brienne's journey to Dante's epic poem. Shrug. But for those who haven't realized it yet, and find it an interesting notion, yes, it's a very neat example.

not sure my essays lend themselves to podcasting, and I'm not so brave as you to do that on my own

[Equilibrium]

Great stuff man. Just to say this essay was really good, tight writing as people would say, focused, definitive. Superbly written as well. Not that previous ones were bad, far from it, I would never read them if they were, but this one is like another level.

Focus becomes more precise, conclusions get hammered better, but writing is getting more relaxed while upping the quality. I really hope this trend continues, but don't stress it, it came naturally with experience.

And I wouldn't really be my post unless I gave some feedback, mind you there is nothing to dispute or fill in this time, as I said far more precise and conclusive then before, but essay got me to think about some things.

Starks have black crown, not black but bronze (fire symbol if there ever was one), hammered bronze to be precise with nine black iron sword so they are connected to Iron Islands in some way, after all Stark defeated last Burrow king, after 1000 year war descendant of the First King, sovereign associated with the dead 

and inventor of the curse that sucks life from all who aspire to rival his greatness, which is connected with soul sucking swords in return. Connection between Starks, First King and Grey King promise a great deal.

Now Theon is good pick for Azor Ahai, he is born amidst salt and smoke as you nicely noticed describing Pyke, he has a sister he wanted to bang and whose chapter is named Sacrifice, his quote "It is my comet". And now for the crucial part, broken sword, which is how one would describe mutilated penis, dragons are neither male nor female and so is Theon, which makes him good fit for Prince that was Promised. Like Last Hero Theon has broken sword. It would also make nice comparison of Night King and Last Hero, as actions of the first can result in broken sword (wink, wink) and distrust of Others, alternately giving seed (source of life) can be interpreted as sacrifice of procreation ability, which lead Others to retreat somehow. Castration as a means of giving life is well established in mythology, Uranus was castrated by Cronos and his seed made Aphrodite (Isis, Ishtar equivalent to the boot).

As for GeoDawnians in Iron Islands, I think we already talked about it, but something new crossed my mind. Three impact sites of meteor (dragon), well dragons (GeoDawnians) also landed on three spots, Starfall, Hightower and Iron Islands, it makes perfect sense geographically and theory wise.

Grey King ruled thousand years and seven and Bloodraven has thousand eyes and one, as there are seven celestial bodies and one that got rekt (fell and created place called God's Eye), this has to be significant.

Dude, you have to give amusing nickname to the corrupt fiery greenseers, so I will recommend Redseers, Fireseers, Bloodseers, Blackseers and Greyseers.

Check out green fire references, especially wild fire, Battle of Blackwater and jade demon.

From the last part I assume you will set out to prove I was right all along, about Others being human sorcerers, human greenseers to be exact. As there are plenty of mentions of trees armored in ice and cloaked in snow. Probably transformed to Others after their fiery brethren caused Long Night. Fire consumes and ice preserves after all, as we were told.

 

 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Great stuff man. Just to say this essay was really good, tight writing as people would say, focused, definitive. Superbly written as well. Not that previous ones were bad, far from it, I would never read them if they were, but this one is like another level.

Focus becomes more precise, conclusions get hammered better, but writing is getting more relaxed while upping the quality. I really hope this trend continues, but don't stress it, it came naturally with experience.

Thanks my friend, I appreciate the detailed feedback here. Of course constructive criticism is helpful, but it's also nice to know what I am doing right and what is working. The things you mentioned are exactly the goals I have in mind as I write each episode, and I'd like to think I'm getting better as a presenter. Some of my old stuff seems really jumbled when I read back over it now, so I think I must be getter better. Which is good, because arranging this stuff in a coherent order is a big challenge and it doesn't get easier as one presses further into the mysteries of ASOIAF. 

This essay also benefits from being a adaptation of an older essay, so I've had a long time to marinate on all the Ironborn myths and as you know, we've all discussed them together on the various threads for over a year and a half now. The thing I did not have before was the link between the burning tree and the idea of possessing the fire of the gods through the weirwood tree. That's the idea I will be expanding on very soon.  But first, you'll be excited to know, comes the Great Empire of the Dawn episode, which I'll be doing with Aziz from History of Westeros as a follow up to our Asshai episode. It will be updated from the original and benefits from the analytical scrutiny of Aziz and from his wealth of ASOIAF knowledge. Should be really fun, and on video too for easy sharing.  

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And I wouldn't really be my post unless I gave some feedback, mind you there is nothing to dispute or fill in this time, as I said far more precise and conclusive then before, but essay got me to think about some things.

I think I've opened some new cans of wyrms though, namely the idea of an ancient connection between fire magic and greenseer magic...

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Starks have black crown, not black but bronze (fire symbol if there ever was one), hammered bronze to be precise with nine black iron sword

Yes, it's said to be made of bronze iron because those are metals which "are dark and strong to fight the cold." That's pretty explicit. It's definitely part of the black crown theme, and the nine swords makes me think the comet being the ninth wanderer and the BSE being the ninth ruler.  For this reason and many others I have long suspected AA or his son ending his story as a founder of house Stark. This would be AA or his son marrying a Westerosi woman, as we've discussed. Brandon of the Bloody Blade! We've also discussed the idea of a group of brothers, as you know, so many similar possibilities are in play here. But that King of Winter stuff is very indicitive of AA... I talked about some of that in Tyrion Targaryen. 

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so they are connected to Iron Islands in some way, after all Stark defeated last Burrow king, after 1000 year war descendant of the First King, sovereign associated with the dead 

and inventor of the curse that sucks life from all who aspire to rival his greatness, which is connected with soul sucking swords in return. Connection between Starks, First King and Grey King promise a great deal.

For sure! I just reread the part in ADWD where they talk about Barrowton being the grave of the First King who was also the guy who lead the First Men across the Arm of Dorne. That creates the association between Garth and The Barrow King / First King which to me again is suggestive of an undead greenseer, a horned lord who became the lord of death. 

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Now Theon is good pick for Azor Ahai, he is born amidst salt and smoke as you nicely noticed describing Pyke, he has a sister he wanted to bang and whose chapter is named Sacrifice, his quote "It is my comet". And now for the crucial part, broken sword, which is how one would describe mutilated penis, dragons are neither male nor female and so is Theon, which makes him good fit for Prince that was Promised. Like Last Hero Theon has broken sword. It would also make nice comparison of Night King and Last Hero, as actions of the first can result in broken sword (wink, wink) and distrust of Others, alternately giving seed (source of life) can be interpreted as sacrifice of procreation ability, which lead Others to retreat somehow. Castration as a means of giving life is well established in mythology, Uranus was castrated by Cronos and his seed made Aphrodite (Isis, Ishtar equivalent to the boot).

Great call on all of that, the broken sword is a fantastic catch (hadn't occurred to me) and the Kronos comparison is apt. Especially because Aphrodite / Ishtar is a Morningstar goddess, called "foam born" (remember Dany wishing she could wer starlight and sea foam for Daario) - the son of the castrated God is the Morningstar, in other words. The castrated god would be undead / resurrected AA Sr., and the Morningstar born in the sea would symbolize the offspring, AA jr. Something like that - you know Martin plays loose with these parallels. But yes, I need to do a study on Theon. The idea of him being given to the tree is interesting, and begins to invoke Odin being hung on the tree as Bloodraven does. Theon is an obvious Grey King conparison too, because he's called a grey old man and he is actually the rightful king / ruler of the Iron Islands according to Westerosi law / custom. He can't be a greenseer but Martin can symbolize this in other ways, like hanging Theon from the tree. 

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As for GeoDawnians in Iron Islands, I think we already talked about it, but something new crossed my mind. Three impact sites of meteor (dragon), well dragons (GeoDawnians) also landed on three spots, Starfall, Hightower and Iron Islands, it makes perfect sense geographically and theory wise.

What makes you think a meteor landed near Oldtown? Geodawnians definitely did but a meteor? I would think one fell near Asshai as well, and the arm... it's just too hairy to try to say exactly how many and where, beyond the most obvious candidates. I mean it's cool to speculate of course, I just won't come down very strongly for anything but the most clear locations, which are the Arm of Dorne and the Iron Islands. I can easily see the Starfall myth being imported from the east or elsewhere, so I am not sure at all one landed there. 

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Grey King ruled thousand years and seven and Bloodraven has thousand eyes and one, as there are seven celestial bodies and one that got rekt (fell and created place called God's Eye), this has to be significant.

I've been ponder that connection for a while, but I haven't been able to get a firm grip. I know what I think about the thousand eyes and one - a thousand meteor eyes and one celestial gods eye. Could the 1,007 years of the GK refer to the wanderers and the meteors? Seems possible, I just can't say exactly how it works or what it means. 

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Dude, you have to give amusing nickname to the corrupt fiery greenseers, so I will recommend Redseers, Fireseers, Bloodseers, Blackseers and Greyseers.

Hmm, maybe I should do a listener poll. Those are all good suggestions. In any case, very soon I will be calling them horned lords and Old Ones, but I have to lay out the case for all that first. 

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Check out green fire references, especially wild fire, Battle of Blackwater and jade demon.

Right, that's got to be the message of the wildfire right? Greenseers using fire? That's why "resurrected Renly" appears with flaming antlers leading an army of demons in steel? That's why the multi-armed green fire demon reaches up to the sky or something one time? It was eating its own too. Yes, you're probably right. Last time I looked at the battle I wasn't sure about the green fire, but after doing his episode, I agree that that is the most likely explanation - greenseers using fire. 

Thing is, Stannis is a burning stag undead AA figure as well, and fights Renly's green fire team with orange and red fire. What's this exactly? The brothers thing again? 

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From the last part I assume you will set out to prove I was right all along, about Others being human sorcerers, human greenseers to be exact. As there are plenty of mentions of trees armored in ice and cloaked in snow. Probably transformed to Others after their fiery brethren caused Long Night. Fire consumes and ice preserves after all, as we were told.

 

 

Yes on all of that, I have definitely come to see the Others as coming from greenseers - both from the seer and the weirwood. And yes all the frozen, personified trees represent this IMO. And I think the horned lords to whom AA belonged were were the race of greenseers who became Others... not sure how all that works, but it seems like a splitting of ice and fire magics off of greenseer magic.  

[Equilibrium]

35 minutes ago, LmL said:

Thanks my friend, I appreciate the detailed feedback here. Of course constructive criticism is helpful, but it's also nice to know what I am doing right and what is working. The things you mentioned are exactly the goals I have in mind as I write each episode, and I'd like to think I'm getting better as a presenter. Some of my old stuff seems really jumbled when I read back over it now, so I think I must be getter better. Which is good, because arranging this stuff in a coherent order is a big challenge and it doesn't get easier as one presses further into the mysteries of ASOIAF. 

Always a pleasure. It will get even better, better compartmentalizing leads to better presentation, writing and outlining are skills, and with practice you are bound to get better, and  you were good to start with.

45 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, it's said to be made of bronze iron because those are metals which "are dark and strong to fight the cold." That's pretty explicit. It's definitely part of the black crown theme, and the nine swords makes me think the comet being the ninth wanderer and the BSE being the ninth ruler.  For this reason and many others I have long suspected AA or his son ending his story as a founder of house Stark. This would be AA or his son marrying a Westerosi woman, as we've discussed. Brandon of the Bloody Blade! We've also discussed the idea of a group of brothers, as you know, so many similar possibilities are in play here. But that King of Winter stuff is very indicitive of AA... I talked about some of that in Tyrion Targaryen. 

For sure! I just reread the part in ADWD where they talk about Barrowton being the grave of the First King who was also the guy who lead the First Men across the Arm of Dorne. That creates the association between Garth and The Barrow King / First King which to me again is suggestive of an undead greenseer, a horned lord who became the lord of death. 

Right, that's got to be the message of the wildfire right? Greenseers using fire? That's why "resurrected Renly" appears with flaming antlers leading an army of demons in steel? That's why the multi-armed green fire demon reaches up to the sky or something one time? It was eating its own too. Yes, you're probably right. Last time I looked at the battle I wasn't sure about the green fire, but after doing his episode, I agree that that is the most likely explanation - greenseers using fire. 

Thing is, Stannis is a burning stag undead AA figure as well, and fights Renly's green fire team with orange and red fire. What's this exactly? The brothers thing again? 

Ahhh, my head hurts, do you remember our endless discussions about who represents who/what and how all ancient guys were connected/related/same ones, I tried to reread it now, we are both fucking insane  

I am still partial to AA and his 3 sons hypothesis, while all of them are valid, 3 brothers (one AA) is also strong contender, but I really favor those scenarios by symbolic meaning, text can go all over the board.

53 minutes ago, LmL said:

Great call on all of that, the broken sword is a fantastic catch (hadn't occurred to me) and the Kronos comparison is apt. Especially because Aphrodite / Ishtar is a Morningstar goddess, called "foam born" (remember Dany wishing she could wer starlight and sea foam for Daario) - the son of the castrated God is the Morningstar, in other words. The castrated god would be undead / resurrected AA Sr., and the Morningstar born in the sea would symbolize the offspring, AA jr. Something like that - you know Martin plays loose with these parallels. But yes, I need to do a study on Theon. The idea of him being given to the tree is interesting, and begins to invoke Odin being hung on the tree as Bloodraven does. Theon is an obvious Grey King conparison too, because he's called a grey old man and he is actually the rightful king / ruler of the Iron Islands according to Westerosi law / custom. He can't be a greenseer but Martin can symbolize this in other ways, like hanging Theon from the tree. 

Yeah, Daenerys as Aphrodite, if only Rhaegar gelded Aerys. Daario would represent Ares in that parallel and it is a great fit. Starlight and sea foam, equals sea dragon, star in the sea or something, connection of sea and stars is promising stuff.

1 hour ago, LmL said:

What makes you think a meteor landed near Oldtown? Geodawnians definitely did but a meteor? I would think one fell near Asshai as well, and the arm... it's just too hairy to try to say exactly how many and where, beyond the most obvious candidates. I mean it's cool to speculate of course, I just won't come down very strongly for anything but the most clear locations, which are the Arm of Dorne and the Iron Islands. I can easily see the Starfall myth being imported from the east or elsewhere, so I am not sure at all one landed there. 

Never said it did, just that there are three landings of each, no meteor crashed near Starfall either, Iron Islands (Neck), Arm of Dorne and Asshai (actually Shadow) are great choices and I agreed since the beginning.

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Yes on all of that, I have definitely come to see the Others as coming from greenseers - both from the seer and the weirwood. And yes all the frozen, personified trees represent this IMO. And I think the horned lords to whom AA belonged were were the race of greenseers who became Others... not sure how all that works, but it seems like a splitting of ice and fire magics off of greenseer magic.  

Since I read the books, for quite a few years now, I always claimed Others are human sorcerers, not that I had any proof, it just seemed right from the story perspective, you read how I later explained that in "Domination, Partnership...." essay.

Ones had to be first, either fireseers needed power to defeat the Others or Others needed to defeat fireseers or just to survive in the North, second is most likely since you don't fight ice sorcerers by causing the ice age, but than again they maybe thought moon breaking will go much more smoothly, as stories tell, we don't know whether (cold) darkness brings Others or Others bring cold (darkness). Still fire, BSE and equivalents and blood magic is pegged as far more evil, so fireseers starting the mess seems more likely.

Not using Horned Lords until you explain the name, not to bring confusion to the discussion, fireseers is much more self explanatory at this point even thought I liked Redseers name the most, by far.

[wiredup]

Awesome. thanks for the tag. I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Your essays have been so enjoyable that they have made the wait for TWOW more bearable. 

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, wiredup said:

Awesome. thanks for the tag. I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Your essays have been so enjoyable that they have made the wait for TWOW more bearable. 

Hey man, great to hear form you, long time no chat! Thanks for the praise, we are all doing what we can to bide the time. The reader and fanboy in me was disappointed when TWOW didn't come out before the last season, but for my podcast enterprise it was a great thing. There are several other major ideas I'd like to lay out before the next book comes. 

[LmL]

15 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Always a pleasure. It will get even better, better compartmentalizing leads to better presentation, writing and outlining are skills, and with practice you are bound to get better, and  you were good to start with.

Ahhh, my head hurts, do you remember our endless discussions about who represents who/what and how all ancient guys were connected/related/same ones, I tried to reread it now, we are both fucking insane  

I do, and yes, that's what happens when you try to interpret the fine details of these things. That's why I am far more cautious with my essays and pods, because I don't want them to sound crazy. But I def don't mind throwing those ideas around here, because it might eventually make enough sense to present. The three Garths  in the NightsWatch thing can't be a coincidence. 

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I am still partial to AA and his 3 sons hypothesis, while all of them are valid, 3 brothers (one AA) is also strong contender, but I really favor those scenarios by symbolic meaning, text can go all over the board.

Yeah, Daenerys as Aphrodite, if only Rhaegar gelded Aerys. Daario would represent Ares in that parallel and it is a great fit. Starlight and sea foam, equals sea dragon, star in the sea or something, connection of sea and stars is promising stuff.

Yes, Shiera Seastar and Ashara Dayne both play into this idea too.

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Never said it did, just that there are three landings of each, no meteor crashed near Starfall either, Iron Islands (Neck), Arm of Dorne and Asshai (actually Shadow) are great choices and I agreed since the beginning.

Oh ok right on.

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Since I read the books, for quite a few years now, I always claimed Others are human sorcerers, not that I had any proof, it just seemed right from the story perspective, you read how I later explained that in "Domination, Partnership...." essay.

I agree, it makes more narrative sense. I made the same argument about the breaking of the arm and the moon - these are original sin type of sins, and it only makes sense if man committed them. 

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Ones had to be first, either fireseers needed power to defeat the Others or Others needed to defeat fireseers or just to survive in the North, second is most likely since you don't fight ice sorcerers by causing the ice age, but than again they maybe thought moon breaking will go much more smoothly, as stories tell, we don't know whether (cold) darkness brings Others or Others bring cold (darkness). Still fire, BSE and equivalents and blood magic is pegged as far more evil, so fireseers starting the mess seems more likely.

The Azor Ahai myth strongly suggests as much. Even the TV show

has the Others being created as a defense mechanism.

.

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Not using Horned Lords until you explain the name, not to bring confusion to the discussion, fireseers is much more self explanatory at this point even thought I liked Redseers name the most, by far.

Hah, I kind of liked blood seers.

[Pain killer Jane]

So I have more stuff @LmL....... 

since we were on fish, drowned moon goddesses, meteors falling into the sea and disease.

This is from Davos III, aCoK

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It was Swordfish, her two banks of oars lifting and falling. She had never brought down her sails, and some burning pitch had caught in her rigging. The flames spread as Davos watched, creeping out over ropes and sails until she trailed a head of yellow flame. Her ungainly iron ram, fashioned after the likeness of the fish from which she took her name, parted the surface of the river before her. Directly ahead, drifting toward her and swinging around to present a tempting plump target, was one of the Lannister hulks, floating low in the water. Slow green blood was leaking out between her boards.

.......Davos Seaworth's heart stopped beating....

No," he said. "No, NOOOOOO!" Above the roar and crash of battle, no one heard him but Matthos. Certainly the captain of the Swordfish did not, intent as he was on finally spearing something with his ungainly fat sword. The Swordfish went to battle speed......

With a grinding, splintering, tearing crash, Swordfish split the rotted hulk asunder. She burst like an overripe fruit, but no fruit had ever screamed that shattering wooden scream. From inside her Davos saw green gushing from a thousand broken jars, poison from the entrails of a dying beast, glistening, shining, spreading across the surface of the river . . .

......Davos felt the deck move under his feet as Black Betha pushed free of White Hart.  

Swordfish and the hulk were gone, blackened bodies were floating downstream beside him, and choking men clinging to bits of smoking wood. Fifty feet high, a swirling demon of green flame danced upon the river. It had a dozen hands, in each a whip, and whatever they touched burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning, and White Hart and Loyal Man to either side. Piety, Cat, Courageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithful, Fury, they had all gone up, Kingslander and Godsgrace as well, the demon was eating his own. Lord Velaryon's shining Pride of Driftmark was trying to turn, but the demon ran a lazy green finger across her silvery oars and they flared up like so many tapers. For an instant she seemed to be stroking the river with two banks of long bright torches.

The Blackwater itself seemed to boil in its bed, and burning spars and burning men and pieces of broken ships filled the air.

So here the Swordfish is acting like a predatory comet and it stops when an easy target that is sick and dying/the NN moon presents itself. And like any good predator it rams it but didn't realize it was poisoned bait. Then the comet and the moon are gone and blackened bodies and poison float together in the Blackwater. 

 

And then in Tyrion XIV

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Tyrion rode down an archer, opened a spearman from shoulder to armpit, glanced a blow off a swordfish-crested helm. At the ram his big red reared but the black stallion leapt the obstacle smoothly and Ser Mandon flashed past him, death in snow-white silk.

 Not vaguely sure but it feels like an echo. I just find it interesting that the Grim Reaper is always depicted as a guy in a black cowl on pale white horse but here the black stallion is carrying a white clad death. The oily black stones and greyscale? 

[Equilibrium]

10 hours ago, LmL said:

I do, and yes, that's what happens when you try to interpret the fine details of these things. That's why I am far more cautious with my essays and pods, because I don't want them to sound crazy. But I def don't mind throwing those ideas around here, because it might eventually make enough sense to present. The three Garths  in the NightsWatch thing can't be a coincidence. 

Yes, Shiera Seastar and Ashara Dayne both play into this idea too.

Oh ok right on.

I agree, it makes more narrative sense. I made the same argument about the breaking of the arm and the moon - these are original sin type of sins, and it only makes sense if man committed them. 

The Azor Ahai myth strongly suggests as much. Even the TV show [spoilers] has the Others being created as a defense mechanism. [/spoiler].

Hah, I kind of liked blood seers.

Yeah, that attitude contributes to better presentation as well.

Shiera Seastar, IDK how I forgot about her, maybe she plays into a trope even better, she is after all source of conflict between Bittersteel, warrior par excellence, and Bloodraven, who akin to Hephaestus, deformed and ostracized god giver of skills and arts, associated with metallurgy, fire and volcanoes. If you look at number of lame characters you will see the pattern, Willas Tyrell is intelegent, breeder of animals (Bloodraven has run Targ eugenics program if I am correct, since he put Egg on the throne) connected with Sansa, moon maiden, and then there is Lame Lothar, intelligent, cunning and, wait for it, half Blackwood.

Ashara and Brandon would be perfect Aphrodite, Ares pair, but I'm confounded who would be Hephaestus in that parallel.

My reasoning exactly, it's about men not about some Always Chaotic Evil race of Climate change avatars.

Fuck dude, spoilers, not cool. Your tag didn't work to make things worse, I told you I managed complete show isolation, just don't reference it in the future, it dilutes the argument anyway, don't use it no essays 

Bloodseers do sound awesome, I will have to copyright them (no I won't Privateer Press already has them and you can't copyright something like that), but redseers were more intrinsically consistent (greenseers and Others are then blueseers)  and fireseers were more self explainatory. 

When you define Horned Lords so everyone knows what they represent, we'll just use that.

[Pain killer Jane]

On 9/11/2016 at 11:53 AM, Equilibrium said:

Now Theon is good pick for Azor Ahai, he is born amidst salt and smoke as you nicely noticed describing Pyke, he has a sister he wanted to bang and whose chapter is named Sacrifice, his quote "It is my comet". And now for the crucial part, broken sword, which is how one would describe mutilated penis, dragons are neither male nor female and so is Theon, which makes him good fit for Prince that was Promised. Like Last Hero Theon has broken sword.

There is the curious cases of Theon III Greyjoy and Theon Stark, "The Hungry Wolf". While the former or the other King Theons are the most likely the namesake of the current Theon Greyjoy. Considering that Theon III Greyjoy saw the power of the Iron Islands diminish. 

However, Theon specifically says Theon Stark is his namesake. And that Theon warred against wildings, Ironmen, and the Andals (killing Argos Sevenstars at the Battle of the Weeping water and then mounting his head on the prow of his ship to terrify the Andals). 

[Equilibrium]

11 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

There is the curious cases of Theon III Greyjoy and Theon Stark, "The Hungry Wolf". While the former or the other King Theons are the most likely the namesake of the current Theon Greyjoy. Considering that Theon III Greyjoy saw the power of the Iron Islands diminish. 

However, Theon specifically says Theon Stark is his namesake. And that Theon warred against wildings, Ironmen, and the Andals (killing Argos Sevenstars at the Battle of the Weeping water and then mounting his head on the prow of his ship to terrify the Andals). 

I thought Theons are there to strengthen Ironborn Stark connection, also to point to divine, as in connecting deity or something as Theon mean something like godly in Greek. 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

I thought Theons are there to strengthen Ironborn Stark connection, also to point to divine, as in connecting deity or something as Theon mean something like godly in Greek. 

 

I think the name Theon came into the North under one of the other two King Theons that was High King of the Iron Islands probably from the West coast of the North like Cape Kraken or Sea Dragon Point that had mingled with the Iron Born. I prefer Sea Dragon point because it was where the Warg King ruled and we know that House Stark married his daughters and @LmL with this essay established that the Iron Born had greenseer blood in them from the beginning.

I find it interesting that Theon was named Theon because Theon III Greyjoy was a king that didn't have a good track record and I imagine they would have done like the Lannister did with the name Lorian and view it was an ill omen name like Maegor for the Targaryen's and let it die out.

And you are correct about Theon as it is reminiscent of Theus/Zeus and its Latin counterpart Deus meaning godly/shining one.

[Equilibrium]

10 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

I think the name Theon came into the North under one of the other two King Theons that was High King of the Iron Islands probably from the West coast of the North like Cape Kraken or Sea Dragon Point that had mingled with the Iron Born. I prefer Sea Dragon point because it was where the Warg King ruled and we know that House Stark married his daughters and @LmL with this essay established that the Iron Born had greenseer blood in them from the beginning.

I find it interesting that Theon was named Theon because Theon III Greyjoy was a king that didn't have a good track record and I imagine they would have done like the Lannister did with the name Lorian and view it was an ill omen name like Maegor for the Targaryen's and let it die out.

And you are correct about Theon as it is reminiscent of Theus/Zeus and its Latin counterpart Deus meaning godly/shining one.

Maybe Theons I and II were awesome rulers, but Theon is also third son, no way he was planned to be king.

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Maybe Theons I and II were awesome rulers, but Theon is also third son, no way he was planned to be king.

Oh I agree. 

[hiemal]

As always, LML, kudos on another well-researched, well-reasoned, and well-presented essay.

As always as well, apologies for the spitball I must unload. Your theories bring out the expectorating maniac in me, what can I say?

I would like to posit for your amusement that the Nagga myth refers not to the moon/meteor catastrophe that brought about the Long Night but to a previous catastrophe- the one that has altered the seasons to their current chaotic state (does that count as two suppositions?).

In this tinfoily creation Nagga, and perhaps all the early references to dragons, refer to the tectonic powers of the earth- Nagga would then be not a sea meteor but a sea volcano, or more likely a string of them not unlike what might be found at the collision line of two continental plates. Someone found a way to... change these forces in a fundamental way so that tectonic energies build up in a way that can be "harvested" by those who know how and where to do so (I'm thinking specifically of Valyria tapping the Fourteen Flames here) instead of dissipating itself through earthquakes (which seem to be rare to say the least). The only other volcanoes I can think of are the ones on Dragonstone, and there is no mention of any eruption in thousands of years of human occupation of Westeros but hot springs do seem to be plentiful.

This, I... there really needs to be a good verb for the noun tinfoil... "theorize" is what has led to the malady of the seasons. Did the CoTF wish to create a world of eternal summer to power their weirnet? Perhaps the Deep Ones wished to remake the world into one more to their alien liking? Was the Gray King the Azor Ahai of that age?

At any rate, that's my crazy for the day. Nagga as a spasm of the earth as someone magically meddles with energies of the world for their own ends and inadvertently (probably) causing the calamity of the seasons (as opposed to the here-hypothesizedito-be-seperate Long Night).

The chronology of the seasonal disruption is what has me wondering along these heretical lines- iirc Samwell stumbles across maesters counts of the seasons going back thousands of years in the library at Castle Black. Do they span the gap of the Long Night and reveal whether they simultaneous? /ponder

That aside, Your Beric/Bloodraven comparison with the Grey King theme has my mind moving in new directions. Your essays are always great for that.

 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

First off, LmL, I have to thank you for giving me so much enthusiasm and respect for the books. The mythology that you're digging out is just so awesome, and I would definitely have missed out on a lot without your essays. 

As for the above poster, I think that there actually is something to be gotten by looking at different types of fire, namely earth-fire vs. star-fire.

The notion I have is that the naughty greenseers (yeah, I'm sticking with that one as long as possible!) brought down star-fire and created -- or tamed, or engineered -- dragons thereby. In the Long Night they became the fledgling Valyrian Empire, using their Lightbringer dragons (and swords probably) to end the darkness, out of the corpse of the GEotD -- bloodstone => valerian, as you figured out. Think of the Medes starting the Persian Empire as a rebellion that toppled the Babylonians. Being evil they enslaved widely and fell to corrupt ways; but at length, they were extinguished by volcanoes. 

The point here is that they started in star-fire, which is corrupting, and were annihilated by earth-fire, which acts to balance. 

I'm just spitballing here. It's been a thought that has been with me since your early essays. 

[Maester of Valyria]

On 14/09/2016 at 9:17 PM, hiemal said:

In this tinfoily creation Nagga, and perhaps all the early references to dragons, refer to the tectonic powers of the earth- Nagga would then be not a sea meteor but a sea volcano, or more likely a string of them not unlike what might be found at the collision line of two continental plates. Someone found a way to... change these forces in a fundamental way so that tectonic energies build up in a way that can be "harvested" by those who know how and where to do so (I'm thinking specifically of Valyria tapping the Fourteen Flames here) instead of dissipating itself through earthquakes (which seem to be rare to say the least). The only other volcanoes I can think of are the ones on Dragonstone, and there is no mention of any eruption in thousands of years of human occupation of Westeros but hot springs do seem to be plentiful.

I agree: the whole 'fire from the sea' thing sounds very like a newly emerged volcanic island (my guess would be the Lonely Light - it may have once lit up the sky). I'm still undecided on the main Iron Islands being volcanic in origin: there's a fair amount of evidence either way.

You're right that earthquakes seem to be rarer than they have a right to be: the only references to them I've been able to find are in Yi Ti (direct reference) and beyond the Wall (the Horn of Joramun 'woke giants from the earth,' which sounds quakey to me). As for volcanoes, you have Dragonstone, the Fourteen Flames and Marahai confirmed, and possible volcanoes include Hardhome, the Mother of Mountains, Ulos, the Frostfangs, the Fist of the First Men, so many different small islands, and many other examples.

[LmL]

On September 14, 2016 at 1:17 PM, hiemal said:

As always, LML, kudos on another well-researched, well-reasoned, and well-presented essay.

Cheers!

Quote

As always as well, apologies for the spitball I must unload. Your theories bring out the expectorating maniac in me, what can I say?

I would like to posit for your amusement that the Nagga myth refers not to the moon/meteor catastrophe that brought about the Long Night but to a previous catastrophe- the one that has altered the seasons to their current chaotic state (does that count as two suppositions?).

I definitely think that this all happened at one time, but carry on...

Quote

In this tinfoily creation Nagga, and perhaps all the early references to dragons, refer to the tectonic powers of the earth- Nagga would then be not a sea meteor but a sea volcano, or more likely a string of them not unlike what might be found at the collision line of two continental plates. Someone found a way to... change these forces in a fundamental way so that tectonic energies build up in a way that can be "harvested" by those who know how and where to do so (I'm thinking specifically of Valyria tapping the Fourteen Flames here) instead of dissipating itself through earthquakes (which seem to be rare to say the least). The only other volcanoes I can think of are the ones on Dragonstone, and there is no mention of any eruption in thousands of years of human occupation of Westeros but hot springs do seem to be plentiful.

This, I... there really needs to be a good verb for the noun tinfoil... "theorize" is what has led to the malady of the seasons. Did the CoTF wish to create a world of eternal summer to power their weirnet? Perhaps the Deep Ones wished to remake the world into one more to their alien liking? Was the Gray King the Azor Ahai of that age?

At any rate, that's my crazy for the day. Nagga as a spasm of the earth as someone magically meddles with energies of the world for their own ends and inadvertently (probably) causing the calamity of the seasons (as opposed to the here-hypothesizedito-be-seperate Long Night).

The chronology of the seasonal disruption is what has me wondering along these heretical lines- iirc Samwell stumbles across maesters counts of the seasons going back thousands of years in the library at Castle Black. Do they span the gap of the Long Night and reveal whether they simultaneous? /ponder

That aside, Your Beric/Bloodraven comparison with the Grey King theme has my mind moving in new directions. Your essays are always great for that.

 

Right on, I always tell people with their own complex theories to look at my stuff, because I draw so many parallels and connections that some of them are bound to be relevant to other people's lines of thinking. That's one thing I always hope to do, even if my own conclusions are wrong - I want to get people talking about the symbolism and debating what it might mean.

I've entertained the idea of Nagga the sea dragon as a sea volcano form the first - taken by itself, a fiery dragon rising from the sea does sound kind of like a sea volcano, certainly, and oceanic volcanic eruptions can trigger tsunamis (to drown whole islands), especially if the eruption is accompanied by seismic activity. Or one could view the collapsing volcanic island as the island drowned by the sea dragon, perhaps.

But here's why I concluded it refers to a meteor impact: symbolism. That first chapter of the IronIslands in ACOK - it's all about sword like things being shoved into the belly of the ocean, thrusting into the sea. The thunderbolt myth also creates the image of fire falling from heaven, and that's a dead ringer for a meteor strike, one which must have taken place here at the Iron Islands. The fire of the gods is what Lightbringer is all about, so I have connected the thunderbolt with Lightbringer meteors for this reason (and all the others laid out in the essay). There is no symbolism about volcanoes rising, or fire from within the earth rising that I have found. I have found example after example of fire falling form the sky, but all the fire which comes out of the sea seems to be carried out or salvaged in the form of weapons, as I documented in the episode. There's a ton of stuff about the floods covering the green lands, but nothing about magma doing the same. 

One has to remember that my approach always combines two methods: interpretation of symbolism in metaphorical scenes in the main body of the text, and logical deduction. Many times people want to only use logical deduction as you are doing here with the sea dragon - as I said, it does sound like a oceanic volcano. But if the symbolism does not support that idea, and instead points at something different, then it's an incomplete argument in my mind.  So yes, in the abstract, a sea dragon could be a sea volcano - but all the clues say it is not, according to what I see. @Maester of Valyria makes the same sort of primarily-logical arguments, and my answer is often similar to the above - we have to cross check our logical deductions against the symbolism, and vise versa. 

The flip side to all this is that interpreting symbolism is obviously quite subjective, and for this reason I attempt to keep an open mind when someone suggests an alternative scenario. Generally I tuck these ideas in the back of my mind so that I might be able to recognize a corresponding line of symbolism when I stumble across it. 

As for a previous impact event, before the Long Night, the closest thing we have to evidence of that is in the tale of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which says that the original God-Emperor descended from the stars to rule for 10,000 years, then ascended tot the stars again - this sounds an awful like the behavior of Venus, the Morningstar, so this may be an astronomical myth. The God-Emperor rode around in a giant pearl-shaped palanquin, which sounds like mythical astronomy (a moon reference perhaps?).  The gemstone emperors appear to Dany holding swords of pale fire, so the crackpot idea here is that the gemstone emperors have been making swords from a white meteor for thousands of years before the Bloodstone Dickwad called down the black moon meteors and fucked everything up, started making black meteor swords, etc.  Obviously this is way speculative and we don't have anything to cross-reference to the God-Emperor and his pearl palanquin, although my friend @Evolett thinks the sedan chairs of people like Doran Martell might be a clue about this. 

As for the children trying to create a long summer, I would disagree on principle. The cotf are different from mankind precisely because they do not fight their dwindling, do not seek to outlive their time on earth. That's one of the reasons I have never ever bought the idea that they broke the arm of Dorne to protect themselves. It's entirely inconsistent with what we've been shown about the children, imo. I believe they'd kill people to save themselves or the earth, but I do no think they would harm the earth itself. And from a story-telling perspective, I thin the original sin in this story must be attributed to mankind, just as with the Garden of Eden fable. The greenseers who broke the moon must have been human, not children, or the story doesn't make sense (again, imo). In that case, humans are stuck living with the curse of the children's misdeeds... and that's not realistic. We are inevitably living with the curse of our OWN misdeeds, just as on Earth. Besides, there's the whole barn door argument - braking the arm after the FM had been crossing for centuries is pointed out in TWOIAF as being nonsensical, and indeed it is. 

What I am seeing in all of these old folktales is hubris - mankind challenging god. Durran stole the daughter of the gods, Azor Ahai stole the fire of the gods to make Lightbringer with human sacrifice, the Bloodstone Emperor worshipped a black meteor and "cast down" the true gods, Grey King stole the god's fire and also took a mermaid to wife (which I believe is another reference to stealing a drowned moon goddess, just as Durran's theft of Elenei was), Hugor had stars pulled down to make his crown, Night's King stole a moon-pale maiden, and so on and so forth. It's a pretty strong theme, and it's one which is universal in real mythology as well.