Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

[kimim]

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Ned was not talking specifically about the sack, because as Robert pointed out it was well known. It was well known that Tywin deceived his way through the gates, so that is not one of the "lies" Ned has been keeping secret for 14 years.

The passage about Tywin ignoring pleas from either side is just a description of appearances...it was what people thought. Ned wasn't stating it as fact. He's telling the story about what people believed.

If Tywin was behind Lyanna's abduction, then it is his fault that Brandon and Rickard died. They were tricked into believing Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Brandon reacted rashly and foolishly accused the crown prince. And if Brandon had not done so, King Aerys would not have had a reason to execute them.

Obviously the sack's not one of the "lies" Ned's been keeping secret. Ned and Robert both know how it happened. This is Eddard II, and GRRM is setting up the history for the reader. As for lies, there are a couple of possibilities here, but not a single one that ties the Lannisters to Lyanna's disappearance. Ned's obviously hiding something to do with Jon's parentage--he's quick to end the conversation on Wylla, and we know that's been going on for fourteen years. More immediately, though, Ned's hiding Lysa's letter, and why he does so is obvious. Robert trusts the Lannisters. Ned's faced with investigating a murder in secret, then accusing the queen when he knows that he can't count on Robert to support him. 

So in this chapter, poor Ned's trying his best to warn Robert against the Lannisters without talking about Arryn's death.

• Robert says that "...you found that our men had already taken the city," and Ned corrects him with "not our men." He's trying to get Robert to think of the Lannisters as the "other," and failing.
• Ned says "there was no honor" in what the Lannisters did to Aerys. Robert counters with "What did any Targaryen ever know about honor?" For Robert, anything anyone does to dragonspawn is justified.
• Robert wants to make Jaime warden of the east. Ned asks "can you trust" him? Ned knows he's not trustworthy. The reader knows he's not trustworthy. Robert, though, thinks Jaime's kingslaying is hilarious: Robert "threw back his head and roared." He then jokes: "Killing kings is weary work."

No matter what Ned says, Robert trusts the Lannisters. Ned's left in despair:

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He was filled with a vast sense of helplessness. Not for the first time, he wondered what he was doing here and why he had come. He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that."

 

The king is unreliable, can't be brought to doubt the Lannisters, yet Ned's going to KL to prove that they were behind the death of Jon Arryn. On top of the mysterious secrets he's kept for fourteen years, Ned now has this to hide from Robert, who is as irresponsible as ever. Ned's very, very unhappy.

To add a bunch of guesses here on Ned's mindset: After seeing the sack of KL, seeing Aerys's corpse and Rhaegar's dead and bloodied kids, Ned hates the Lannisters (no secret, as can be seen from this chapter) and he is furious with Robert for accepting them, leaving in a "cold rage," and never fully regaining his trust in his friend.

Ned then finds Lyanna. Say he also discovers at this point that the Lannisters were responsible for her disappearance and death.

Robert has not yet married Cersei. Tywin is trying hard to gain Robert's trust. My sense is that Ned would never have kept that a secret. He would have ridden directly back to KL and told Robert, making certain that this poisonous family would not become involved in the crown's affairs.

 

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, kimim said:

Obviously the sack's not one of the "lies" Ned's been keeping secret. Ned and Robert both know how it happened. This is Eddard II, and GRRM is setting up the history for the reader. As for lies, there are a couple of possibilities here, but not a single one that ties the Lannisters to Lyanna's disappearance. Ned's obviously hiding something to do with Jon's parentage--he's quick to end the conversation on Wylla, and we know that's been going on for fourteen years. More immediately, though, Ned's hiding Lysa's letter, and why he does so is obvious. Robert trusts the Lannisters. Ned's faced with investigating a murder in secret, then accusing the queen when he knows that he can't count on Robert to support him. 

So in this chapter, poor Ned's trying his best to warn Robert against the Lannisters without talking about Arryn's death.

• Robert says that "...you found that our men had already taken the city," and Ned corrects him with "not our men." He's trying to get Robert to think of the Lannisters as the "other," and failing.
• Ned says "there was no honor" in what the Lannisters did to Aerys. Robert counters with "What did any Targaryen ever know about honor?" For Robert, anything anyone does to dragonspawn is justified.
• Robert wants to make Jaime warden of the east. Ned asks "can you trust" him? Ned knows he's not trustworthy. The reader knows he's not trustworthy. Robert, though, thinks Jaime's kingslaying is hilarious: Robert "threw back his head and roared." He then jokes: "Killing kings is weary work."

No matter what Ned says, Robert trusts the Lannisters. Ned's left in despair:

The king is unreliable, can't be brought to doubt the Lannisters, yet Ned's going to KL to prove that they were behind the death of Jon Arryn. On top of the mysterious secrets he's kept for fourteen years, Ned now has this to hide from Robert, who is as irresponsible as ever. Ned's very, very unhappy.

To add a bunch of guesses here on Ned's mindset: After seeing the sack of KL, seeing Aerys's corpse and Rhaegar's dead and bloodied kids, Ned hates the Lannisters (no secret, as can be seen from this chapter) and he is furious with Robert for accepting them, leaving in a "cold rage," and never fully regaining his trust in his friend.

Ned then finds Lyanna. Say he also discovers at this point that the Lannisters were responsible for her disappearance and death.

Robert has not yet married Cersei. Tywin is trying hard to gain Robert's trust. My sense is that Ned would never have kept that a secret. He would have ridden directly back to KL and told Robert, making certain that this poisonous family would not become involved in the crown's affairs.

 

Ned brings up the sack as proof of Tywin's treachery and immediately is thinking about the lies he has kept for 14 years. Obviously the two things go together. The reason why he had not told Robert before was because he promised Lyanna he wouldn't tell. Many readers assume Lyanna's promises have to deal with a child, but I think it's protecting the legitimacy of the rebellion, and Ned cannot reveal Jon's true parentage without also revealing that Rhaegar didn't kidnap her. The whole campaign would be tinged and the Targaryens would become the wronged party in the eyes of the realm and call the legitimacy of Robert's rule into question.

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That would still have been at the end of the rebellion, though, not around the time of the fisherman's daughter.

Yes I agree the timing of when Jaime saw a hooded Rhaella and the fisherman's daughter story are off, but Rhaella also complained how Aerys turned her handmaidens into whores. So, even if Ashara was not disguised as Rhaella to get out of Kings Landing, she surely could have been "dishonored" by Aerys.

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Fisherman's Daughter story very well may be about Ashara.

About Wylla? Maybe, and I tend to think so. I think it is a cover story made up later to explain Wylla and how she could have met Ned. About Ashara ... no, not, really a chance. The story places the fisherman's daughter as a local, not some mysterious woman who comes in from nowhere and saves Ned at the cost of her father's life, This is not someone who can be mixed up with the Lady Ashara Dayne. 

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I looked up moth symbolism and basically if you dream of moths it's a message to listen to your inner voice. Ned didn't listen to his inner voice because he was trying to hold onto a promise that he had made to his sister, and keeping a promise is honorable. Littlefinger told him how foolish and dangerous it could be to hold onto his honor at the expense of safety as it would not protect his children.

There are also these two passages that might allude to the Lannisters involved as early as the Tourney of Harrenhal and blood on Ned's hands?

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In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming. GoT Tyron VIII

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Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

About Wylla? Maybe, and I tend to think so. I think it is a cover story made up later to explain Wylla and how she could have met Ned. About Ashara ... no, not, really a chance. The story places the fisherman's daughter as a local, not some mysterious woman who comes in from nowhere and saves Ned at the cost of her father's life, This is not someone who can be mixed up with the Lady Ashara Dayne. 

The whispering of the staff at Winterfell that Catelyn recalls mentions Ashara. How would the help even hear gossip about Ashara in connection with Jon unless something was overheard or seen. Ashara could have left Kings Landing in disguise to find her way to Ned. It really wouldn't even be that far by ship. That's how Sansa got away.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There are also these two passages that might allude to the Lannisters involved as early as the Tourney of Harrenhal and blood on Ned's hands?

 

Thank you LynnS! Those passages are very suggestive!

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The whispering of the staff at Winterfell that Catelyn recalls mentions Ashara. How would the help even hear gossip about Ashara in connection with Jon unless something was overheard or seen. Ashara could have left Kings Landing in disguise to find her way to Ned. It really wouldn't even be that far by ship. That's how Sansa got away.

This is what Catelyn says about it:

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That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

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They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

 

[SFDanny]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The whispering of the staff at Winterfell that Catelyn recalls mentions Ashara. How would the help even hear gossip about Ashara in connection with Jon unless there was something was overheard or seen. Ashara could have left Kings Landing in disguise to find her way to Ned. It really wouldn't even be that far by ship. That's how Sansa got away.

Let's not mix things up here. Assuming, which I don't, that Ashara is the woman Jaime thinks is Rhaella, and who he sees leaving King's Landing after the news of the Trident gets to the city, then we are talking about over a year's difference in time between the two stories. Ned and the Fisherman's Daughter are at the start of the rebellion when Ned is struggling to get back to Winterfell from the Vale in order to take command of his bannermen. How does this get mixed up with Jaime seeing Rhaella leaving after the defeat at the Trident, one plus years later? Not only that, but, as I said, there is no mistaking Ashara Dayne as a daughter of one of the local fishermen around the sisters. Doesn't work.

How would Winterfell servants hear about Ashara? From gossip heard from Harrenhal and the rebellion. Ned rides from Starfall with a child he calls his own and meets up with his troops going North. They hear of stories of how Ned defeated Ser Arthur and took his sword back to Starfall. It's not hard for any of the soldiers who know of the Harrenhal story to put two and two together and come up with what they think is four. Especially, after news comes of Ashara's death by apparent suicide.

[Melifeather]

29 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Let's not mix things up here. Assuming, which I don't, that Ashara is the woman Jaime thinks is Rhaella, and who he sees leaving King's Landing after the news of the Trident gets to the city, then we are talking about over a year's difference in time between the two stories. Ned and the Fisherman's Daughter are at the start of the rebellion when Ned is struggling to get back to Winterfell from the Vale in order to take command of his bannermen. How does this get mixed up with Jaime seeing Rhaella leaving after the defeat at the Trident, one plus years later? Not only that, but, as I said, there is no mistaking Ashara Dayne as a daughter of one of the local fishermen around the sisters. Doesn't work.

How would Winterfell servants hear about Ashara? From gossip heard from Harrenhal and the rebellion. Ned rides from Starfall with a child he calls his own and meets up with his troops going North. They hear of stories of how Ned defeated Ser Arthur and took his sword back to Starfall. It's not hard for any of the soldiers who know of the Harrenhal story to put two and two together and come up with what they think is four. Especially, after news comes of Ashara's death by apparent suicide.

Up thread I had already agreed that the timeline doesn't fit to place what Jaime thought was Rhaella and the Fisherman's daughter, however Rhaella did complain that Aerys turned her handmaidens into whores. Ashara was Elia's handmaiden, but that probably didn't exclude her from unwanted advances. Nothing is said about how Ashara left Kings Landing, just Ned's soldier's gossip about how Ned brought her Arthur's sword, and her reported "suicide". IMO a convenient way to explain a disappearance and go into hiding.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Up thread I had already agreed that the timeline doesn't fit to place what Jaime thought was Rhaella and the Fisherman's daughter, however Rhaella did complain that Aerys turned her handmaidens into whores. Ashara was Elia's handmaiden, but that probably didn't exclude her from unwanted advances. Nothing is said about how Ashara left Kings Landing, just Ned's soldier's gossip about how Ned brought her Arthur's sword, and her reported "suicide". IMO a convenient way to explain a disappearance and go into hiding.

If we accept a pregnancy as part of Ashara's post Harrenhal story, then she is long gone from the court before Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone. If she was still in King's Landing or came back after the still birth that would be very interesting. If you turn up and such information, or hint of it, let me know. Not that I buy into Ashara being raped by Aerys instead of Rhaella. The kingsguard seems to know who was in that room. And then, Aerys took a vow. You wouldn't want to start rumors that would stain his "honor" would you?

btw, I agree with you about her suicide. I think she is alive and has spent the last several years helping raise Young Griff.

[maudisdottir]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Barristan Selmy mentions Ashara turning to Ned for help, and I think it's quite plausible that this is how she was dishonored.

Barristan doesn't say Ned, only "Stark", and he never said "for help".  You've added those words yourself.  All Barristan said is she "looked to Stark".  

I believe the Stark is Brandon, and she looked to him for love and sexy times, not help.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Barristan doesn't say Ned, only "Stark", and he never said "for help".  You've added those words yourself.  All Barristan said is she "looked to Stark".  

I believe the Stark is Brandon, and she looked to him for love and sexy times, not help.

I suppose you're right. This can be interpreted more than one way. I guess I was leaning towards Ned because of Meera's story about the girl with violet eyes and the quiet wolf...and Barristan's memory of her being dishonored. You don't experience dishonor and then look for love and sexy times. 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes I agree the timing of when Jaime saw a hooded Rhaella and the fisherman's daughter story are off, but Rhaella also complained how Aerys turned her handmaidens into whores. So, even if Ashara was not disguised as Rhaella to get out of Kings Landing, she surely could have been "dishonored" by Aerys.

Possibly. If the dishonouring indeed occurred at Harrenhal, the tourney would  have been one of the few times Aerys and Ashara were likely to have been near enough for such a thing to happen, considering that Elia lived most of her marriage on Dragonstone, meaning Ashara (as Elia's lady-in-waiting) would likely only have been at KL's court when Elia was.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Possibly. If the dishonouring indeed occurred at Harrenhal, the tourney would  have been one of the few times Aerys and Ashara were likely to have been near enough for such a thing to happen, considering that Elia lived most of her marriage on Dragonstone, meaning Ashara (as Elia's lady-in-waiting) would likely only have been at KL's court when Elia was.

Yes both Aerys and Ashara were at Harrenhall, and Ashara was likely with Elia prior to the battle at the Trident when Aerys was holding Elia captive, unless she found a way to escape.

[kimim]

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Ned brings up the sack as proof of Tywin's treachery and immediately is thinking about the lies he has kept for 14 years. Obviously the two things go together.

The reason why he had not told Robert before was because he promised Lyanna he wouldn't tell. Many readers assume Lyanna's promises have to deal with a child, but I think it's protecting the legitimacy of the rebellion, and Ned cannot reveal Jon's true parentage without also revealing that Rhaegar didn't kidnap her. The whole campaign would be tinged and the Targaryens would become the wronged party in the eyes of the realm and call the legitimacy of Robert's rule into question.

 

Bolded bit: In Eddard II, Ned mentions that Lannisters took KL by treachery, Jaime betrayed Aerys, and Tywin murdered Rhaegar's children, and Robert doesn't give a fuck. The connection is Ned's discovery that Robert has not changed, and that for him only good dragonspawn is dead dragonspawn. Ned naturally thinks about his promise in the middle of this, as it was Robert's hatred of Targaryens that led to his having to lie for fourteen years about the existence of his nephew, who happened to be another dragonspawn.

Meanwhile, Tywin supports Ned's account of how the Lannisters got involved in the rebellion:

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We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable.

Pycelle tells a similar story to Tyrion:

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"... 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates..."

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king...I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly..."

Pycelle, a Lannister faithful, acts only after Rhaegar's death as the remaining Targs are either too mad or too young, and "the realm needed a king." So he opens the gates to Tywin, hoping that he would claim the throne, but it's too late: Robert is too strong at this point, and Ned arrives too quickly. This is not long-term planning by Tywin; it's the opposite. Tywin's left it till the last moment, knows he must burn his Targ bridges and prove his loyalty to Robert, so kills the kids.

When Ned, Tywin, and Pycelle agree on a point, and when there is literally no evidence in the text of the reverse, then I think that the point stands: Lannisters waited. They were not involved from the very beginning. They had nothing to do with Lyanna's disappearance.

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 11/23/2016 at 4:25 PM, Kingmonkey said:

To take a bit of pressure of poor Wolfmaid who's been bombarded with questions, I propose a challenge.

For some reason, Ned kept secret the truth about Jon's parentage for 14 years, at significant personal cost to himself and his wife. Why? Any solution to X+Y=J must surely give some solid reason for Ned not simply telling Jon -- and indeed the world -- who his parents are. What's the big secret?

I'll put forwards explanations that cover the two essays I did. Anyone is free to chip in with comments/addenda/criticisms on these, or come up with similar justifications for any of the other parenthood solutions. Have at it!

 

R+L=J: The murder of Rhaegar's other children. We don't need to be sure that Robert would actually kill Lyanna's son. We don't need to think that Robert would go so far as to challenge Ned and risk the loyalty of the North on this matter. We don't even need to involve the Lannisters in this. All we need is for Lyanna to have been fearful for her new half-Targ son by a man who's other children have just been brutally murdered -- as far as she knows perhaps, on the orders of that man's killer. "Promise me, Ned."

 

S+L=J: Because duh. Ned's going to keep this one secret, otherwise he might as well just tattoo "ABOMINATION" on baby Jon's head. To do anything other than keep this secret would bring shame on Jon and shame on House Stark. 

The questions were not a problem in themselves.The amount was a problem to a very busy person.Plus,it took me like three days to reply because the thread wouldn't let me.

While i can answer this,i disagree that an answer has to be a reason to validate a theory or not.

I will tell you the problem i have with your answer and then give you my reason for Ned not telling Robert Jon was his son.

We know that Lyanna knew Brandon and Rickard are dead.We do not know that Lyanna knew that Rhaegar's children are dead.So i don't think that's a solid argument to make.Next,this is another nail in the coffin of Lyanna and Robert not knowing each other.She would have to know Robert to believe he was capable of killing children.

Lastly,for Lyanna to illicit such a promise from Ned,says a lot about her belief of Ned in that he would just tell Robert about Jon.Such a promise need not have been enacted against Ned unless she believed that without it Ned would tell Robert.

As to Jon being the product of incest,i got no rebuttals.Hell yeah he was going to keep that.That's  an abomination before men and the gods.

 

The reason for me believing Ned would keep it from Robert is two-fold.

I don't believe Lyanna was specific in her promises as in protect Jon from X person. I have two thoughts (One that Lyanna died defending Jon from being taken.Won't go into that) but the other and the one i wish to propose for now is that she simply told Ned "protect Jon" 

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“Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon,….”

It was Ned who decided the parameters and what form that would take  and how protecting Jon would look like.No big bad person that's a danger to Jon.Ned in general was very protective of Jon because that's what Lyanna asked Promise me you'll watch over him,protect him.

What Tywin pulled and Robert's reaction.There was noway he was going to let Jon stay there.Ned would have convinced himself how effed up Robert would be when he found out about Lyanna and thought Jon was better off with him.

Then we have the cultural aspect that Ned himself has already told us and society has already beaten down throats.

 

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The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal”---Egg to Dunk.

 

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“Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father he could as good a true son as Robb Stark.” ---Jon Snow.

 

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“You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned (AGOT,Cat).

 

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“If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? Ned.”

 

At the end of the day,Jon is a bastard,and being a king's bastard wasn't going to make his life any easier.He would be shunned and he would be a threat to the children of any woman he would have married in this case it would have been Cersie.We know what would have happened.

From a narrative point what we end up having is Robert's bastards being killed off by Lannisters anyway so its not surprising we get this:

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“Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he (Robert) had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl....

“Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me (AFFC Cersie).”

There was another bastard, a boy (Gendry), older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way...but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?” "She was Robert’s that was enough for Cersei it would seem (Tyrion&Varys ACOK).

 

I think the way things are setting up Cersie would have more reason to kill and hate Jon.

Now i would also like to point out something else and i believe i did already.

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“I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.”AGOT,Ned Chpt 58.

This whole speech was about regret...The lie Ned told and the truth he hid from Robert would have most likely avoided this moment.A moment where Robert led a miserable life and died a horrible death.A moment where Ned was now in a dungeon facing death.

Now what could Ned have lied and kept from Robert?I believe of-course it was his true parentage.It can't have been anyone else but Lyanna and Robert.For,that defeats the whole Ned kept it from Robert because,Robert would kill Jon.

So to sum...Ned was the one who chose how to interpret what protecting Jon looked like.It was at his own discretion.It so has it Cersie and Joff were killing off Robert's bastards and they are still in danger from her..and Red Priestesses come to think of it.And culturally,Ned knows the troubles that would have faced Jon at court had Robert known about him. 

 

Note: Posted my reply to you @Kingmonkey and @SFDanny .Sorry it took so long.Busy major problems posting on thread.

Happy harvest everyone.

 

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, kimim said:

Bolded bit: In Eddard II, Ned mentions that Lannisters took KL by treachery, Jaime betrayed Aerys, and Tywin murdered Rhaegar's children, and Robert doesn't give a fuck. The connection is Ned's discovery that Robert has not changed, and that for him only good dragonspawn is dead dragonspawn. Ned naturally thinks about his promise in the middle of this, as it was Robert's hatred of Targaryens that led to his having to lie for fourteen years about the existence of his nephew, who happened to be another dragonspawn.

Meanwhile, Tywin supports Ned's account of how the Lannisters got involved in the rebellion:

Or the connection is Ned being disappointed by Robert trying to behave the way Tywin would.Really? Robert's hatred of Targs is the reason Ned lied? Then why?

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“I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.”AGOT,Ned Chpt 58.

Totally contradicts Ned's thoughts in the dungeon.

[Wall Flower]

44 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The questions were not a problem in themselves.The amount was a problem to a very busy person.Plus,it took me like three days to reply because the thread wouldn't let me.

While i can answer this,i disagree that an answer has to be a reason to validate a theory or not.

I will tell you the problem i have with your answer and then give you my reason for Ned not telling Robert Jon was his son.

We know that Lyanna knew Brandon and Rickard are dead.We do not know that Lyanna knew that Rhaegar's children are dead.So i don't think that's a solid argument to make.Next,this is another nail in the coffin of Lyanna and Robert not knowing each other.She would have to know Robert to believe he was capable of killing children.

Lastly,for Lyanna to illicit such a promise from Ned,says a lot about her belief of Ned in that he would just tell Robert about Jon.Such a promise need not have been enacted against Ned unless she believed that without it Ned would tell Robert.

As to Jon being the product of incest,i got no rebuttals.Hell yeah he was going to keep that.That's  an abomination before men and the gods.

 

The reason for me believing Ned would keep it from Robert is two-fold.

I don't believe Lyanna was specific in her promises as in protect Jon from X person. I have two thoughts (One that Lyanna died defending Jon from being taken.Won't go into that) but the other and the one i wish to propose for now is that she simply told Ned "protect Jon" 

It was Ned who decided the parameters and what form that would take  and how protecting Jon would look like.No big bad person that's a danger to Jon.Ned in general was very protective of Jon because that's what Lyanna asked Promise me you'll watch over him,protect him.

What Tywin pulled and Robert's reaction.There was noway he was going to let Jon stay there.Ned would have convinced himself how effed up Robert would be when he found out about Lyanna and thought Jon was better off with him.

Then we have the cultural aspect that Ned himself has already told us and society has already beaten down throats.

 

 

 

 

 

At the end of the day,Jon is a bastard,and being a king's bastard wasn't going to make his life any easier.He would be shunned and he would be a threat to the children of any woman he would have married in this case it would have been Cersie.We know what would have happened.

From a narrative point what we end up having is Robert's bastards being killed off by Lannisters anyway so its not surprising we get this:

I think the way things are setting up Cersie would have more reason to kill and hate Jon.

Now i would also like to point out something else and i believe i did already.

This whole speech was about regret...The lie Ned told and the truth he hid from Robert would have most likely avoided this moment.A moment where Robert led a miserable life and died a horrible death.A moment where Ned was now in a dungeon facing death.

Now what could Ned have lied and kept from Robert?I believe of-course it was his true parentage.It can't have been anyone else but Lyanna and Robert.For,that defeats the whole Ned kept it from Robert because,Robert would kill Jon.

So to sum...Ned was the one who chose how to interpret what protecting Jon looked like.It was at his own discretion.It so has it Cersie and Joff were killing off Robert's bastards and they are still in danger from her..and Red Priestesses come to think of it.And culturally,Ned knows the troubles that would have faced Jon at court had Robert known about him. 

 

Note: Posted my reply to you @Kingmonkey and @SFDanny .Sorry it took so long.Busy major problems posting on thread.

Happy harvest everyone.

 

It was Ned's fierce protectiveness of Jon and his inexplicable silence about Jon's mother that first convinced me that Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. To me that's the only answer that makes sense of Ned's behaviour.

I agree that we don't know how much Lyanna was aware of when she extracted her promise but we do know that Ned had just come from seeing the bodies of Rhaegar's children and hearing Robert call them dragonspawn. Robert wasn't even married to Cersei until the following year and already had at least one known bastard. It makes much more sense for Ned to be immediately protective of, and secretive about, the brother of those dead babies than another bastard of the new made king.

You've also failed to provide a convincing reason why Lyanna would keep Jon's parentage or indeed her pregnancy from her own betrothed if he was the father.

Ned kept Robert in the dark about Lysa Arryn's warning that the Lannisters had killed her husband and about all his subsequent investigations in King's Landing. Robert died because Ned was too close to the truth about his queen's treason and the paternity of his so-called heirs, not because Ned lied about Jon Snow's parentage.

[Kingmonkey]

 

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To your first point concerning Lyanna missing.As i said before nobody how should have been concerned with Lyanna didn't act as though she was.Bran doesn't count.

You've said it before, but you still haven't justified it. Why wouldn't Bran count? He's Ned's son. You'd think he'd have heard the story from a pretty reliable source.

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Brandon does count and his behavior calling for Rhaegar to come out and die.Never making any query after her.Robert dispatching Rhaegar before asking where she is and Ned never one in his recollection behaved as such.This tells me when i put all these people's behavior together that.

We don't know what Brandon said, so why are you claiming he never made any query after her? We don't know what Robert and Rhaegar said, so why are you claiming he never asked where she is? You've simply invented that evidence.

As for Ned -- what would you call "behaving as such"? You've made this claim before, but what's the justification for it? Imagine for a moment that Lyanna WAS missing -- what would Ned have done differently? Sent a few men off to scour a continent the size of Latin America?

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Secondly,having seen a baby before is irrelevant as there is no evidence Ned was trying to pass Jon off as a  newborn baby.That idea is a fly in the rebuttal's ointment.From what we know the only info Ned gave is Jon being his son.

You're still missing the point. Where would the idea that Jon was a newborn baby have come from in the first place if nobody said he was a newborn and he looked nothing like a newborn? This just doesn't make sense. 

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On Dany,no they wouldn't have mentioned any specifics other than Rhaella's babe.This is the culture,they view  a babe from anywhere between 0-4.General labels like these are very could at messing with reader perception while not being out of place in the vernacular of the characters culture without seeming sketchy.Again its the subtly i think is being missed.

That would work except that specifics WERE mentioned. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly, but you just keep ignoring it. Dany is known as the Stormborn. That's her story. Ned mentions her age, and it doesn't tally with a 4 year old, it tallies with someone born during the storm. We are specifically told where and when Dany was born. Maybe there was a baby swap later, but everything points very clearly to the baby being born during the storm just before the capture of Dragonstone. 

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You still haven't answered me.How would your significant other 's family know you love him/her?It can't be done Kingmonkey.They would never make a statement that you love him/her just by you saying it over and over.They would have to observe you with them.See how you treat them, behave around them to make such a proclamation.

This is completely irrelevant. I'm not questioning whether Robert loved Lyanna, I'm questioning whether Lyanna loved Robert. The hows of my girlfriend's family deciding whether or not I love her have nothing to do with whether or not she loves me. 

Once again, show that Lyanna loved Robert. NOT that Robert loved Lyanna. You still haven't done this. Every time you're asked, you keep giving evidence that Robert loved Lyanna.

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Kingmonkey,I'm pretty sure you forgot what an infatuation is,else you would never have described Robert's feeling as a short-lived passion or a crush.

Infatuation is a foolish passion, not necessarily a short lived one. Robert, I dub thee fatuum rex (with apologies for my probably incorrect Latin. Or apologias pro Latina sua, but I'm only making things worse.)

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Incorrect about what Ned meant Kingmonkey in telling Robert "You didn't know Lyanna as i did,you only saw the beauty and not the iron beneath."You take that out of context.The context being that Ned thought Cersie asked Robert not to fight in the Melee.Something which Robert told Ned.Cersie forbade him,shamed him.Something Lyanna wouldn't have done.Varys corrected Ned later when he gave Ned the true run down of what happened and in front of who it happened.

How on earth can you claim that's out of context when it's a direct reply? Robert claimed that Lyanna would never have told him not to fight, as Cersei had done. Ned told him he was wrong about Lyanna. Robert may have thought he knew Lyanna well enough to make that claim about her, but he was wrong. 

You use a line by Robert to show that he did indeed know Lyanna, ignoring the fact that Ned tells him immediately afterwards that he was wrong about Lyanna. So much for Robert knowing Lyanna all that well.