Little Walder and His Bag of Silver

[sweetsunray]

At the moment Big Walder is 27th. Since the start of aCoK, he moved up 13 places. So, he was 40th in line when he came to WF early 299 AC. In little over a year to 1.5 year he gained 13 places. Not that bad I'd say. He will at least gain another 3 places. Merrett Frey named Lame Lothar, other than Ryman as being one of the organizers. You can bet on it that Ryman himself also volunteered names to try and save his life. So, those would certainly be sought after by the BwB.

Then Emmon's sourleaf mouth is mentioned so often, more than Yoren or Masha, and likely RW2 will occur at RR, since that's a Lannister-Frey wedding. So, Emmon Frey's a walking dead man. Likely the Frey squires of CR will be taken along, and that singer Frey may be there to sing for the wedding as well. It's a wedding to the Warden of the West after all.

Hosteen will likely die at Battle of Ice

And at least either Edwyn or Black Walder will be at each other's throats, with half-brothers and nephews choosing sides in the hope to gain favor. Expect a few Freys to die in the process as well.

With a very conservative number I'd say Big Walder will at least move up to 23rd. More realistically he'll be at least 14th in line by the end of tWoW. Optimystically he'll be 6th in line by the end of tWoW.

 

WALDER FREY

X PERRA ROYCE

·         Stevron Frey (oxcross)

 x Corenna Swann

o   Ryman Frey (hanged by BwB at Fairmarket)

§  Edwyn Frey (heir of Twins) x Janyce Hunter

·         Walda (9)

§  Black Walder

§  Petyr Pimple Frey (hanged by BwB at Oldstones) x Mylenda Caron

·         Perra

(5)

X Jeyne Lydden

o   Aegon Jinglebell (killed by Catelyn at RW)

o   Maegelle Frey x Dafyn Vance

§  Marianne Vance

§  Walder Vance

§  Patrek Vance

X Marsella Waynwood

o   Walton Frey x Dean Hardyng

§  Sweet Steffon

§  Fair Walda

§  Bryan Frey (anyone here who thinks George was doing an allusion to Bryan Ferry here )

·         Emmon Frey x Genna Lannister (FREYS OF RR)

o   Cleos Frey (killed by outlaws near Maidenpool) x Jeyne Darry

§  Tywin Frey (heir to RR)

§  Willem Frey

(10, page at Ashemark)

o   Lyonel Frey x Melesa Crakehall

o   Tion Frey (killed by men of Rickard Karstark)

o   Red Walder

(14, squire CR)

·         Aenys Frey (fell in a trap outside of WF) x Tyana Wylde

o   Aegon Bloodborn (outlaw)

o   Rhaegar Frey (Frey Pie) x Jeyne Beesbury

§  Robert Frey

(13)

§  White Walda

§  Jonos Frey

(8)

·         Perrianne Frey x Leslyn Haigh

o   Harris Heigh

§  Walder Haigh

o   Donnel Haigh

o   Alyn Haigh

X CYRENNA SWANN

·         Jared Frey (Frey Pie) x Alys Frey

o   Tytos Frey (killed by Sandor Clegane outside RW) x Zhoe Blanetree

§  Zia

§  Zachary (12, Faith, in training)

o   Kyra Frey x Garse Goodbrook

§  Walder Goodbrook

§  Jeyne Goodbrook

o   Septon Luceon

X AMAREI CRAKEHALL

·         Hosteen Frey x Bellena Hawick

o   Arwood Frey x Ryella Royce

§  Ryella

§  Androw & Alyn (4)

§  Hostella

·         Lythene Frey x Lucias Vypren

o   Elyana Vypren x Jon Wylde

§  Rickard Wylde

o   Damon Vypren

·         Symond Frey (Frey Pie) x Betharios of Braavos

o   Alesander (singer)

o   Alyx

o   Bradamar

(10, ward of a Braavos merchant)

·         Danwell Frey x Wynafrei Whent

·         Merrett Frey (hanged by BwB at Oldstones) x Mariya Darry

o   Amerei Frey

o   Fat Walda x Roose Bolton

o   Marissa Frey

o   Little Walder

 

(murdered in WF)

·         Geremy Frey (drowned) x Carolei Waynwood

o   Sandor Frey (12, squire)

o   Cynthea Frey

·         Raymund Frey x Beony Beesbury

o   Robert Frey (acolyte citadel)

o   Malwyn Frey (serving alchemist in Lys)

o   Serra and Sarra

o   Cersei Little Bee

o   Jaime & Twyin

(newborn)

X ALYSSA BLACKWOOD

·         Lame Lothar Frey x Leonella Lefford

o   Tysane

o   Walda

o   Emberlei

o   Leana

·         Jammos Frey x Sallei Paege

o   Big Walder

(8)

o   Dickon & Mathis (5)

·         Whalen Frey x Sylwa Paege

o   Hoster Frey (12, squire of Daemon Paege)

o   Merry/Merianne (11)

·         Morya Frey x Flement Brax

o   Robert Brax (9, page at CR)

o   Walder Brax (6)

o   Jon Brax (3)

·         Tyta the Maid

X SARYA WHENT => no progeny

X BETHANY ROSBY

·         Perwyn Frey

·         Benfrey Frey (wound at RW) x Jyanna Frey

o   Deaf Della (3)

o   Osmund Frey (2)

·         Maester Willamen (at Longbow Hall)

·         Olyvar Frey (formerly squire to Robb, though he was older)

·         Roslin Frey x Edmure Tully

o   Expecting

X ANNARA FARRING

·         Arwyn Frey (14)

·         Wendel Frey (13, page at Seagard)

·         Colmar Frey (11, promised to the Faith)

·         Waltyr/Try Frey (10)

·         Elmar Frey (9, was squire and cupbearer to Roose Bolton, former betrothed of Arya Stark)

·         Shirei Frey (7)

X JOYEUSE ERENFORD

·         Expecting

[Eden-Mackenzie]

As others have pointed out, while Little Walder was modeling himself after Ramsay, Big Walder seems to be taking a more Roose-like approach to life. Big Walder's casual mention of White Harbor men teaching dice combined with Little Walder's now-terminated engagement to Wylla Manderly certainly cast suspicion on Wyman Manderly as the impetus of Little Walder's death, but as far as I can recall we only have Big Walder's word Little Walder was owed money for dice, no outside corroboration. 

We have seen deaths planned by Wyman Manderly, and we have seen deaths planned by Roose Bolton; Little Walder's death seems much more along the lines of a Roose death than a Wyman. Little Walder's supposed bag of silver coins will never be found, if it even existed to begin with. 

[John Suburbs]

I think the blood on Big Walder's hands is a huge red herring. I mean, come on, this is Martin we're talking about. If he wanted to drop a clue that BW was the killer, it would be something a shade subtler than blood on the hands.

Has anyone considered the possibility that it was the Hooded Man?

[Oakhearts head]

This is the first I've heard of the Big Walder/Roose Bolton comparison and I have to say I think it's nonsense. It's based 100% on both Frey's not being all that upset about Stevron's death which is flimsy reason at best as Little Walder wasn't particularly saddened either. Little Walder is 9 years old and isn't expecting or conspiring to take the Lordship of the Crossing. Frankly, the Walder kids' lack of sympathy for their relatives death isn't really suggestive of any sociopathic behavior. I don't know about you, but I probably wouldn't lose much sleep if I hear about a distant relative who I have very little to do with passing away. That's just the truth. It's not that astounding for two 9 year old children to react in an insensitive manner.  

Big Walder actually seems like an OK guy. He is obviously quite disturbed by Ramsay and Little Walder's behavior and even seemed to show some empathy for Theon in ADWD.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I think the blood on Big Walder's hands is a huge red herring. I mean, come on, this is Martin we're talking about. If he wanted to drop a clue that BW was the killer, it would be something a shade subtler than blood on the hands.

Has anyone considered the possibility that it was the Hooded Man?

Agreed completely. It would be way too obvious.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think the blood on Big Walder's hands is a huge red herring. I mean, come on, this is Martin we're talking about. If he wanted to drop a clue that BW was the killer, it would be something a shade subtler than blood on the hands.

Then what is the explanation for the blood spatter on BW? 

ETA: Also, I think the blood spatter mention on BW is done subtly. I did not catch it on my first read and without this website I bet many people would not have found it either. Its not like the people in Winterfell suspect BW. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

This is the first I've heard of the Big Walder/Roose Bolton comparison and I have to say I think it's nonsense. It's based 100% on both Frey's not being all that upset about Stevron's death which is flimsy reason at best as Little Walder wasn't particularly saddened either. Little Walder is 9 years old and isn't expecting or conspiring to take the Lordship of the Crossing. Frankly, the Walder kids' lack of sympathy for their relatives death isn't really suggestive of any sociopathic behavior.

Nobody here says Big Walder is a sociopath/psychopath. People who aren't psychopaths can still think to kill someone is a good idea for pragmatic reasons. And yes, that's more Roose's style. Stevron's death news serves to tell us that many of the Freys think about their survival. Merrett Frey explicitly thinks even the daughters and girls might be at each other's throat once Walder Frey dies. And there is a difference between not being affected emotionally, and right out smiling over it. And yes Big Walder, who is overall far more pleasant, is smiling over it too. Nor does he like Little Walder. Lame Lothar (Big Walder's closest uncle, because also a son of a Blackwood) is one of the more sympathetic Freys when interacting with Robb and Catelyn too. Nonetheless he negotiated the deal about Edmure-Roslin, and rigged the tents outside on the banks where thousands of men were burned alive. At this point, I'd say machiavelistic behavior.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ok, firstly,

The Big Walder/Little Walder naming convention is utterly impossible for me to keep straight over any prolonged period of time. Martin made it way too complicated, with triple twists as far as description and characterisation competing with each other to support or oppose the name.

The Big One is actually smaller of stature, but I think he is the senior in terms of age. At the same time, someone says the Big one is actually small on the inside, meaning he is the meaner and more evil of the two. But here I can't recall if the quote was referring to the one named Big Walder, or the one who is the physically bigger one.

In any case, all I know for a fact, is that it is the evil one that was killed. And probably by the "gooder" one. Whether the "good" one is Big or Small in size, or Big or Small in name, I don't know, but I do know he is Big in terms of his heart. Comparatively.

The last bit is all that matters, I reckon, because I think Martin is trying to upset the now established pattern of Frey=Evil, by turning the "good" Walder into some kind of ally to our protagonists. He might in fact end up helping the Starks and the North in some way. Maybe due to a kind of budding friendship he developed with Bran during their time together.

So, could the surviving Walder be part of the Big Northern conspiracy? Maybe to redeem the evil that he feels his House has committed, and which he does not want to be part of? The crypts, and the bag of silver all come into it. Maybe Bad Walder caught Good Walder in some kind of deal with the Northern loyalists, resulting in Good Walder killing him to shut him up.

Or something  along those lines.

[Nittanian]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Big One is actually smaller of stature, but I think he is the senior in terms of age. At the same time, someone says the Big one is actually small on the inside, meaning he is the meaner and more evil of the two. But here I can't recall if the quote was referring to the one named Big Walder, or the one who is the physically bigger one.

To clarify, Little Walder (the deceased cousin) is bigger and meaner than Big Walder (who is older but smaller).

Quote

"Septon Chayle says [Hodor] has a gentle spirit."

"Aye," she said, "and hands strong enough to twist a man's head off his shoulders, if he takes a mind to. All the same, he better watch his back around that Walder. Him and you both. The big one they call little, it comes to me he's well named. Big outside, little inside, and mean down to the bones." (ACOK Bran II)

 

[Goldhands]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

@YOVMO There are three mistakes you make:

There is no mention of Little Walder having been found in the crypts. He's discovered in a snowbank (which is outside) below the ruined keep. There was the 1st keep, and the great keep. The 1st keep wasn't in use anymore, and a wall collapsed during (or after) the sack of WF (after if you think Summer saw a dragon fly off), so it's become a ruin. While the crypts are nearby, it's not stated he was found in the crypts, which is unlikely since most people don't even know where it is. Secondly, it's Little Walder (the one that got killed) who became more and more like Ramsay. The surviving Walder, Big Walder, is supposedly the nicer one of the two. And third, Little Walder is not related to a Crakehall, but to Darry. Little Walder is the brother of Amerei and Fat Walda.

Little Walder is Merrett's son and Hosteen's nephew and they have a Crakehall mother, so Little Walder's grandmother was a Crakehall, his mother a Darry.

You're right about the rest, Big Walder distances himself from Ramsay and is quite nice to Theon.

[Goldhands]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ok, firstly,

The Big Walder/Little Walder naming convention is utterly impossible for me to keep straight over any prolonged period of time. Martin made it way too complicated, with triple twists as far as description and characterisation competing with each other to support or oppose the name.

The Big One is actually smaller of stature, but I think he is the senior in terms of age. At the same time, someone says the Big one is actually small on the inside, meaning he is the meaner and more evil of the two. But here I can't recall if the quote was referring to the one named Big Walder, or the one who is the physically bigger one.

In any case, all I know for a fact, is that it is the evil one that was killed. And probably by the "gooder" one. Whether the "good" one is Big or Small in size, or Big or Small in name, I don't know, but I do know he is Big in terms of his heart. Comparatively.

The last bit is all that matters, I reckon, because I think Martin is trying to upset the now established pattern of Frey=Evil, by turning the "good" Walder into some kind of ally to our protagonists. He might in fact end up helping the Starks and the North in some way. Maybe due to a kind of budding friendship he developed with Bran during their time together.

So, could the surviving Walder be part of the Big Northern conspiracy? Maybe to redeem the evil that he feels his House has committed, and which he does not want to be part of? The crypts, and the bag of silver all come into it. Maybe Bad Walder caught Good Walder in some kind of deal with the Northern loyalists, resulting in Good Walder killing him to shut him up.

Or something  along those lines.

The quote was made by Osha and it was about Little Walder, she stated that he's named Little Walder because he's big outside and little inside. And yes, the mean one was killed, Little Walder who's bigger but younger than Big Walder.

[sweetsunray]

37 minutes ago, Goldhands said:

Little Walder is Merrett's son and Hosteen's nephew and they have a Crakehall mother, so Little Walder's grandmother was a Crakehall, his mother a Darry.

You're right about the rest, Big Walder distances himself from Ramsay and is quite nice to Theon.

Yes, I mentioned it afterwards, so already self-corrected. He's a grandson of a Crakehall.

[YOVMO]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

At the moment Big Walder is 27th. Since the start of aCoK, he moved up 13 places

This is an awesome list, thank you...it is also very startling.

 

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Nonetheless he negotiated the deal about Edmure-Roslin, and rigged the tents outside on the banks where thousands of men were burned alive.

This is very telling. We really need to really remember the time and culture and idiosyncrasies of grrm's universe and try not to bring in too many of our own morals and mores that simply do not apply here. Rigging the tents and burning the stark and tully men alive at the red wedding seemed out of character, but in the end it simply was the way of life at that point. This was something that had to happen. Thinking that Big Walder was a sociopath/psychopath for killing Little Walder simply doesn't fit in with the universe we are dealing with....especially if he was being manipulated by or part of a larger plan involving the lord of their house and the Bolton's and Lannisters

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This is an awesome list, thank you...it is also very startling.

Yup it is. Of course, I went by son and grandsons first, and ignored the girls. The list of succession alters if Edwyn Frey's daughter (a great-granddaughter of living Lord Walder Frey) is heir prior to her uncle Black Walder, who's Stevron's second son.

For instance, if Rickard still lived and Benjen wasn't in the NW would Sansa come before Benjen? Normally she should, but Westeros has grown fond of having men inherit over women. At least I can see the Frey sons fighting over that. Knives will come out for sure.

[YOVMO]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup it is. Of course, I went by son and grandsons first, and ignored the girls. The list of succession alters if Edwyn Frey's daughter (a great-granddaughter of living Lord Walder Frey) is heir prior to her uncle Black Walder, who's Stevron's second son.

For instance, if Rickard still lived and Benjen wasn't in the NW would Sansa come before Benjen? Normally she should, but Westeros has grown fond of having men inherit over women. At least I can see the Frey sons fighting over that. Knives will come out for sure.

I have thought of just this question (sansa before a non NW Benjen). My general understanding is that the Great Council of 101 pretty much set precedent for the male would come first....that said, Rickard living and Benjen not being in nights watch complicates things. I think that ignoring the girls in the Frey line of succession was correct...only in a Dornish house would that be different.

[aryagonnakill#2]

18 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I agree otherfamother. Everything you said and more points to big Walder I believe. The question is: was he alone in this deed? Did Roose and or Ramsay play a role? If so to what end? If not, to what end did BW do the deed. Yes the succession thing but it wasn't like he had any chance of also killing the 6 or so people still between him and being lord of the crossing. Could be just anger but as was pointed out above he had a decent disposition. The more I think of it the more I believe it was Roose using it as a pretext to push the Frey's and Manderly's out of winterfell. He Benefts the most. Even if Stannis beats the combined Fray and Manderly force it will weaken him and Roose is still safe behind the walls of winterfell and now being seiged by an even weaker Stannis army while at the same time the whooping this puts on house Manderly in terms of loss of life of knights and men at arms further solidifies Roose's dominance in the north. 

 

That said, the fact that Wyman has already told Davos that he declares for Stannis could very well mean the Frey's get butchered and the Manderly's come back to Winterfell saying they were defeated and walk right through the front gate with Stannis's army

Theon says that Roose looks afraid for the first time he has ever seen, if Roose is loosing his cool he is not the one behind it.

[YOVMO]

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Theon says that Roose looks afraid for the first time he has ever seen, if Roose is loosing his cool he is not the one behind it.

That is a fair point. Of course, we need to take that it is Theon's POV and he could easily be misreading Roose. But then again, Roose is usually as cool as a cucumber and it specifically mentions how it is the first time he has raised his voice. I will put this in the hopper with other ideas. Thank you!

[The Fattest Leech]

55 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I have thought of just this question (sansa before a non NW Benjen). My general understanding is that the Great Council of 101 pretty much set precedent for the male would come first....that said, Rickard living and Benjen not being in nights watch complicates things. I think that ignoring the girls in the Frey line of succession was correct...only in a Dornish house would that be different.

That seems to be mostly a southron/Targ/whose ass is in the pokey chair rule. Even after that council came to that decision, it was ignored by the Targ's atleast twice that I can think of off the top of my brain. One of those times led to the start of the DoD. Dorne also follows their own way of inheritance, equal promigenture, meaning, it goes to son or daughter, whichever is first.

The north, at the moment especially, is being held by women in the main houses: Mormont, House Dustin, Alys Karstark (now merging into House Thenn). There is probably another I can't think of at the moment, but I am sure some other smarty will remember.

Anyway, this concept of only males can inherit will change to the equal promigenture in the near future with Jon and how he is integrating the Free Folk into the north. He already is putting females in his defenses against the Others and assigned Queensgate to Morna. Also, it is quite possible that Dany will also abolish this rule if she is the one to sit the IT or rule a part of Westeros for any amount of time. Even before the Council of 101, a few other female Targs hated this rule and did their best to undo it (without much success, obviously).

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That seems to be mostly a southron/Targ/whose ass is in the pokey chair rule. Even after that council came to that decision, it was ignored by the Targ's atleast twice that I can think of off the top of my brain. One of those times led to the start of the DoD. Dorne also follows their own way of inheritance, equal promigenture, meaning, it goes to son or daughter, whichever is first.

The north, at the moment especially, is being held by women in the main houses: Mormont, House Dustin, Alys Karstark (now merging into House Thenn). There is probably another I can't think of at the moment, but I am sure some other smarty will remember.

Agreed that the IT council decision is about the IT not necessarily a house seat.

House Mormont is held by women because Jeor abdicated and Jorah was an exile. There was no male heir at the time that Jorah fled, and these women specifically use a trick to keep from being married and have someone usurp the house in name through marriage.

House Dustin: Lady Dustin is holding House Dustin as the widow of Lord Dustin. And there are no male heirs, heck not even female heirs.

Alys Karstark is not the head of House Karstark. That is her older brother who's in a cell in Maidenpool.

House Frey is not a Northern house.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The last bit is all that matters, I reckon, because I think Martin is trying to upset the now established pattern of Frey=Evil, by turning the "good" Walder into some kind of ally to our protagonists. He might in fact end up helping the Starks and the North in some way. Maybe due to a kind of budding friendship he developed with Bran during their time together.

So, could the surviving Walder be part of the Big Northern conspiracy? Maybe to redeem the evil that he feels his House has committed, and which he does not want to be part of? The crypts, and the bag of silver all come into it. Maybe Bad Walder caught Good Walder in some kind of deal with the Northern loyalists, resulting in Good Walder killing him to shut him up.

Or something  along those lines.

I tend to agree with this as well. I think Big Walder, is meant to be the little speck of light-grey in a very dark-grey family. He doesn't like how Little Walder is becoming a crony of Ramsay. I think Little Walder was set up for readers to despise back in Clash as well:

Little Walder spurred his horse closer, giving Hodor a bump that pushed him backward. "What will you do if I don't?"

"He'll set his wolf on you, cousin," warned Big Walder.

"Let him. I always wanted a wolfskin cloak." [Little Walder]

"Summer would tear your fat head off," Bran said.

Little Walder banged a mailed fist against his breastplate. "Does your wolf have steel teeth, to bite through plate and mail?"

[aryagonnakill#2]

13 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

That is a fair point. Of course, we need to take that it is Theon's POV and he could easily be misreading Roose. But then again, Roose is usually as cool as a cucumber and it specifically mentions how it is the first time he has raised his voice. I will put this in the hopper with other ideas. Thank you!

If there was a conspiracy here, I would lay it on Mance and Mance alone.  He could've legitimately played dice with Little Walder, and purposefully lost.  If he was disguised as a White Harbor man and never paid up that would have wound up putting Frey and WH men at each others throats anyway, without having to kill the kid.  In this instance Big Walders story was actually true, but didn't know it was a setup.

I still think it's more likely that Big Walder just took advantage of the situation.  Roose wants to rule the north, but at the same time the Freys are his most loyal troops so getting rid of them is not ideal.  After the incident he realizes he has to get rid of the Freys and Manderlys so he does but is not happy about it. The best scenario for him was everyone staying there under his roof peacefully while Stannis starved, eventually he would take Torrhens square from the Ironborn, and then Winter sets in so people just calmed down and went home for a couple of years while Ramsay had a baby or two on (F)Arya.

Ramsay may have wanted to go out and fight Stannis, but as the other killings were the spearwives, and it is specifically noted that it was little walder, the dead one that was close to Ramsay, it seems impractical that he would have conspired with Big Walder to kill Little Walder and not the other way around.