Fidel Castro dies

[House Balstroko]

16 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

*Head desk*

The economic and legal underpinnings that underlie capitalism are the creation of technology. Modern capitalism could not function without it. You're confusing the direction of the causal relationship.

My comment on the space satellites was, of course, tongue in cheek: saying that the internet is a capitalist technology because it first appeared under capitalism* is like saying that the printing press is a feudalist technology (can we write books criticising aristocrats?) because it first appeared under feudalism, or that the space satellite is a communist technology because it first appeared under communism.

*Actually, it didn't. The internet was developed from the 1950s, during the era of the Mixed Economy, where capitalism was a term associated with the Depression.  

As for the last point, I'd sooner be sick and/or homeless in Cuba than in the United States.

Of course you can criticize what you want, I never suggested otherwise. There is a lot of discourse happening in many western countries at the moment regarding the merits of different political models.

What I strongly object to, is praising Castro for standing up to "imperialism" when you rely on products that come from said "imperialistic" nations. You cannot indulge in a culture (movies, music, social media, computers, cars...) and then  turn your back on it by elevating leaders who supposedly stand up to it. 

I'll ask you another question, would you be a fantasy blogger if you had spent your life in Castro's Cuba. I highly doubt you would be on this forum if you had been living there.

 

8 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

That sounds like a lie because it's a story about a communist manipulating technology and I just learned in this thread that technology is only for capitalists.  

I don't think I ever mentioned that technology is only for capitalists. I said that a lot of it was developed in capitalistic countries.

5 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Many Americans just can't understand that half of the world actually likes socialism better than the individualistic neoliberal bullshit that their country never tires of trying to impose on the world.

And yeah, I've actually been to Cuba and talked politics with Cubans. They have no illusions about their system, but they're also smart enough to have no illusions about the rest of the world either. And many of them are way happier than you'd think. Also, let's bear in mind that Batista was a terrible ruler - because the older generations of Cubans haven't forgotten it.

In fact, few people actually know what Cuban socialism actually looks like... With some genuine successes in the mix. But hey, objectively analysing a socio-political system is much harder than focusing on "democracy" and "freedom" even though our "liberal demoracy" is democratic in name only.

I would be perfectly willing to live in a Cuba that hadn't suffered from decades of an economic embargo imposed on it for purely ideological reasons. It's always fantastic to hear people talk of how hard it is to live in a socialist country while ignoring that much of the hardship is due to US interference.
Oh wait... Actually I do. By American standards I live in a country that's so socialist it verges on communism!!

Using the embargo as an excuse is a cop out. Cuba is in its state through its own doing. The country was free to trade with however else it wanted. At best you could say that the embargo was unnecessary, which I do agree, but to use it as an excuse is just plain silly. 

Forgive me for saying this, but I do have a hard time believing you would be willing to live in Cuba. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it's really easy to say that on a forum without thinking things through.

I'm not American and by no means did I suggest that the US has the best model. What country do you live in? I'm going to take a wild guess and say Sweden.

[felice]

40 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

Forgive me for saying this, but I do have a hard time believing you would be willing to live in Cuba.

I'd certainly rather live in Cuba than any other country with a comparable per capita GDP. Obviously living in a country several times wealthier than the global average (like most of us on this forum) is preferable, though.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 hours ago, maarsen said:

No elections. People do not talk about politics much there. Even so there is almost no evidence of government agents tracking the movements of foreign visitors. The closest I came to that was when visiting a military reserve without my passport and being turned away. Our guide waited until the general (?) had left and then signed us in. 

Maarsen,

You didn't answer the second half of the question.  What happens to people who breach "limits on political freedoms".

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Maarsen,

You didn't answer the second half of the question.  What happens to people who breach "limits on political freedoms".

The same thing that happens here.  Look -- Standing Rock.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The same thing that happens here.  Look -- Standing Rock.

 

Which sucks and shouldn't be tolerated.  Yet, people are still protesting at Standing Rock.  What would happen to similar protesters in Cuba?  Would the protests still be going on or would they all be imprisoned?

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, House Balstroko said:

Of course you can criticize what you want, I never suggested otherwise. There is a lot of discourse happening in many western countries at the moment regarding the merits of different political models.

What I strongly object to, is praising Castro for standing up to "imperialism" when you rely on products that come from said "imperialistic" nations. You cannot indulge in a culture (movies, music, social media, computers, cars...) and then  turn your back on it by elevating leaders who supposedly stand up to it. 

I'll ask you another question, would you be a fantasy blogger if you had spent your life in Castro's Cuba. I highly doubt you would be on this forum if you had been living there.

 

I don't think I ever mentioned that technology is only for capitalists. I said that a lot of it was developed in capitalistic countries.

Using the embargo as an excuse is a cop out. Cuba is in its state through its own doing. The country was free to trade with however else it wanted. At best you could say that the embargo was unnecessary, which I do agree, but to use it as an excuse is just plain silly. 

Forgive me for saying this, but I do have a hard time believing you would be willing to live in Cuba. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it's really easy to say that on a forum without thinking things through.

I'm not American and by no means did I suggest that the US has the best model. What country do you live in? I'm going to take a wild guess and say Sweden.

Acquaintance with the all the provisions of the Helms-Burton Act:  Pub.L. 104–114, 110 Stat. 785, 22 U.S.C. §§ 6021–6091 informs otherwise.

This will help you go through all the provisions of the Act.

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Which sucks and shouldn't be tolerated.  Yet, people are still protesting at Standing Rock.  What would happen to similar protesters in Cuba?

Check out the Ladies in White.  Who, by the way, called off their weekly protest on Sundays this Sunday for the sake of peace.

 

[Zorral]

23 minutes ago, felice said:

I'd certainly rather live in Cuba than any other country with a comparable per capita GDP. Obviously living in a country several times wealthier than the global average (like most of us on this forum) is preferable, though.

A lot of Cubans who have the option to live elsewhere, now that travel has become so open on both sides, travel and make money (and bring back stuff to Cuba), but in every way prefer living there.  For men, really, it is the greatest.  Women find it less great as they're still pulling three shifts as earner, housewife and mother.  Though that is another change I've been noticing even in rural areas in the last few years.  I see men helping clean up after meals, changing diapers and so on which I NEVER saw back in the 1990's.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Check out the Ladies in White.  Who, by the way, called off their weekly protest on Sundays this Sunday for the sake of peace.

 

Glad to hear it.  Why are their family members imprisoned in the first place?  What would happen if they were vocal in their protest?

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Using the embargo as an excuse is a cop out. Cuba is in its state through its own doing. The country was free to trade with however else it wanted.

Oh my.

Ok, I'll pretend you made a much more thoughtful and articulate argument than you did and resist the temptation to be sarcastic.

I guess in the past twenty years Cuba has been able to develop trade with many countries in spite of the US. But the embargo isn't so much about trade as it is about preventing American tourists from flooding the island and making it wealthy. Of course, Cuba did develop tourism (especially after the end of the Cold War) and you will find many American tourists there today, but the reason why Cubans are much better off than people in other Carribean nations of comparable size is thanks to a socialist system that uses the money from tourism to provide everyone with some basic necessities. Such as education and health care, but also housing, food, electricity, clean water... Of course the system isn't ideal and Cubans will tell you just how bad the bureaucracy is, and how frustrating it can be on a daily basis. But given its history and geography it's amazing that Cuba has fared as well as it has despite the US doing everyting it could not to help its development in any way. Just look at its neighbors and you will understand what the embargo is about.
Or do explain what kind of economic miracle did socialism prevent on the island. Is life on Cuba hard? Sure, in some ways it is. But compared to countries with the same GDP and population size? Holy f***, Cuba is an amazing success and anyone who would say otherwise needs a serious reality check.
You need to understand what poverty is. What's the point of elections for a beggar in the streets of Dacca or Freetown? What's the good of having the right to protest or vote if you can't even eat or need to work fifty hours a week in abominable conditions to do so? For that matter, what do elections really give us in our Western "democracies" save for a few minor adjustments here or there every few years? It's fine and dandy to lecture entire countries on freedom and democracy, but the first duty of a government is to allow its people to survive. If a country has "freedom" but a significant portion of its population is struggling to make ends meet, how is that a success exactly? I judge systems of government by their ability to provide a human life to the greater number, not by their ability to provide "freedoms" that have absolutely no meaning if you don't have the wealth to use them. Most Cubans actually understand this, and this is why they will not celebrate Fidel's death. But people who've never even set foot on their island talk of "hardships" and "human rights" as if it really mattered to them while conveniently forgetting that human rights are also about not starving.
Anyway, was Castro a model leader? Definitely not. He could have slowly introduced some form of democracy on the island. We know that socialism and democracy are only incompatible in the minds of American conservatives. But then, how do you make democracy work when you know the CIA will provide millions of dollars to whoever is willing to destroy your welfare-state and sell your country to the Americans?

2 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Forgive me for saying this, but I do have a hard time believing you would be willing to live in Cuba. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it's really easy to say that on a forum without thinking things through.

It depends what you mean by "willing." Of course I wouldn't move to Cuba today since I've worked all my life to be part of the middle-class in my own country. But if I had to choose a poor country to have been born in, Cuba would pretty much be at the top of my list. I'd even choose it over much wealthier countries in which education and health care are not considered fundamental rights for the citizens.
Yeah, if I had to start from scratch I'd rather live in Cuba than in the USA.
Especially today.
 

[DireWolfSpirit]

The well has been poisoned on public opinion over Cuba after years of conditioning with a MSM that always sells a "Cuba Evil, Castro Bad, USA and Freedom Good". They've (Cuba) been the black hat poster child for decades in the U.S. People conditioned thusly, will sit and argue over the case even with others far better informed and who in many cases, have been visiting Cuba for many years now.

Such is the power of the propaganda sold to the West that they (the U.S. public) unquestioningly, will believe the Marxist revolutionaries are complete failures. They can never accept any narrative that shows Cuban accomplishments in medical care and social programs or model policies for disaster relief. As I said the well is poisoned and people will cling to what their media has sold them for years, chiefly, "Cuba/Fidel blackhat Bad, bad, bad".

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

39 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The well has been poisoned on public opinion over Cuba after years of conditioning with a MSM that always sells a "Cuba Evil, Castro Bad, USA and Freedom Good". They've (Cuba) been the black hat poster child for decades in the U.S. People conditioned thusly, will sit and argue over the case even with others far better informed and who in many cases, have been visiting Cuba for many years now.

Such is the power of the propaganda sold to the West that they (the U.S. public) unquestioningly, will believe the Marxist revolutionaries are complete failures. They can never accept any narrative that shows Cuban accomplishments in medical care and social programs or model policies for disaster relief. As I said the well is poisoned and people will cling to what their media has sold them for years, chiefly, "Cuba/Fidel blackhat Bad, bad, bad".

So the people in prison for expressing political opinions that are not in favor should be...?

[felice]

26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So the people in prison for expressing political opinions that are not in favor should be...?

Released, certainly. As should many people unreasonably imprisoned in the US, which has a higher incarceration rate than even Cuba.

[DireWolfSpirit]

26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So the people in prison for expressing political opinions that are not in favor should be...?

The country with highest incarceration rate in the World is ?

A. Cuba

B. United States

 

 

(August 2012) Since 2002, the United States has had the highest incarceration rate in the world. Although prison populations are increasing in some parts of the world, the natural rate of incarceration for countries comparable to the United States tends to stay around 100 prisoners per 100,000 population.

U.S. Has World's Highest Incarceration Rate - Population ...

Population Reference Bureau › Articles

 

Feedback

About this result • 

 

[House Balstroko]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Oh my.

Ok, I'll pretend you made a much more thoughtful and articulate argument than you did and resist the temptation to be sarcastic.

I guess in the past twenty years Cuba has been able to develop trade with many countries in spite of the US. But the embargo isn't so much about trade as it is about preventing American tourists from flooding the island and making it wealthy. Of course, Cuba did develop tourism (especially after the end of the Cold War) and you will find many American tourists there today, but the reason why Cubans are much better off than people in other Carribean nations of comparable size is thanks to a socialist system that uses the money from tourism to provide everyone with some basic necessities. Such as education and health care, but also housing, food, electricity, clean water... Of course the system isn't ideal and Cubans will tell you just how bad the bureaucracy is, and how frustrating it can be on a daily basis. But given its history and geography it's amazing that Cuba has fared as well as it has despite the US doing everyting it could not to help its development in any way. Just look at its neighbors and you will understand what the embargo is about.
Or do explain what kind of economic miracle did socialism prevent on the island. Is life on Cuba hard? Sure, in some ways it is. But compared to countries with the same GDP and population size? Holy f***, Cuba is an amazing success and anyone who would say otherwise needs a serious reality check.
You need to understand what poverty is. What's the point of elections for a beggar in the streets of Dacca or Freetown? What's the good of having the right to protest or vote if you can't even eat or need to work fifty hours a week in abominable conditions to do so? For that matter, what do elections really give us in our Western "democracies" save for a few minor adjustments here or there every few years? It's fine and dandy to lecture entire countries on freedom and democracy, but the first duty of a government is to allow its people to survive. If a country has "freedom" but a significant portion of its population is struggling to make ends meet, how is that a success exactly? I judge systems of government by their ability to provide a human life to the greater number, not by their ability to provide "freedoms" that have absolutely no meaning if you don't have the wealth to use them. Most Cubans actually understand this, and this is why they will not celebrate Fidel's death. But people who've never even set foot on their island talk of "hardships" and "human rights" as if it really mattered to them while conveniently forgetting that human rights are also about not starving.
Anyway, was Castro a model leader? Definitely not. He could have slowly introduced some form of democracy on the island. We know that socialism and democracy are only incompatible in the minds of American conservatives. But then, how do you make democracy work when you know the CIA will provide millions of dollars to whoever is willing to destroy your welfare-state and sell your country to the Americans?

It depends what you mean by "willing." Of course I wouldn't move to Cuba today since I've worked all my life to be part of the middle-class in my own country. But if I had to choose a poor country to have been born in, Cuba would pretty much be at the top of my list. I'd even choose it over much wealthier countries in which education and health care are not considered fundamental rights for the citize ns.
Yeah, if I had to start from scratch I'd rather live in Cuba than in the USA.
Especially today.
 

My explanation was very simple because there is not much to it. Yes, it's true that to a certain extent the US did undermine Cuba, but that's just how countries operate. it most certainly isn't unique to the US. Countries have been doing it for eons.

Blaming the embargo for Cuba's lack of development is absolutely ridiculous. At some point, you need to stand on your own two feet. Not to mention that unlike many developing countries, Cuba was constantly helped by the Soviet Union. Of course many people love the romantic narrative of a brave leader fighting against the odds, so they will easily buy the notion that Cuba's state of being is the direct result of the embargo. 

i also never suggested that western democracies are impeccable. They have many flaws that are worth addressing. There are also plenty of countries that have socialist tendencies, yet are still very successful in many areas (Sweden, Norway...)

I'm really getting tired of the coup nonsense that keeps getting brought up. "We are innocent little lambs, but the big bad US is here to get us". It's pretty obvious that Castro was using the notion of coups to consolidate power. After all, its what many regimes try to do: label anyone who disagrees with you as a dissident to alienate them from politics.

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The well has been poisoned on public opinion over Cuba after years of conditioning with a MSM that always sells a "Cuba Evil, Castro Bad, USA and Freedom Good". They've (Cuba) been the black hat poster child for decades in the U.S. People conditioned thusly, will sit and argue over the case even with others far better informed and who in many cases, have been visiting Cuba for many years now.

Such is the power of the propaganda sold to the West that they (the U.S. public) unquestioningly, will believe the Marxist revolutionaries are complete failures. They can never accept any narrative that shows Cuban accomplishments in medical care and social programs or model policies for disaster relief. As I said the well is poisoned and people will cling to what their media has sold them for years, chiefly, "Cuba/Fidel blackhat Bad, bad, bad".

One does not have to be American (I'm not) to believe that Castro is terrible. While it's true that there is some propaganda aimed at Cuba and other regimes, it's silly to think the reverse does not exist. Propaganda works in many ways, it exists in every country and it has many objectives. The notion that the US is terrible, while every other country is so sweat and innocent is extremely juvenile. If you seriously believe that, you don't understand basic human psychology.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I'm certain I never made the claim that every country was sweet. But in a thread concerning the death of a World leader, where we have posters right on the first page gloating, I think its constructive to question what motivates people openly celebrating a death.

[Mladen]

Well, coming from Serbia, I will say that communism here worked. If you ask most people who remembers Tito's years, they will speak about "good old days". The education worked, young people were not unemployed, medical system was working, well, it seems everything worked. It didn't come without cost, that is for certain, but the communism on Balkan held passionate nationalist spirits under control. With the loss of communism, everything imploded here. Now, we have both democracy and capitalism. And yes, around 50% of under 30-year-old people are unemployed. Not to mention that EU and USA have done its wonders to support certain leaders in Montenegro, Croatia and Serbia that are in many ways, philosophically and politically, same or worse than Castro. 

Socialism in Yugoslavia worked. Capitalism is destroying us  

[House Balstroko]

2 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I'm certain I never made the claim that every country was sweet. But in a thread concerning the death of a World leader, where we have posters right on the first page gloating, I think its constructive to question what motivates people openly celebrating a death.

You're right that gloating over the death of a leader is counter productive as it doesn't solve any issues. I was definitely not gloating over it, as I'm myself indifferent to it. 

My criticism was largely aimed at those who praise him as a model leader. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Felice, DWS,

Of course I never mention US police abuses of power or advocate reforming US prison systems.  Never, ever.

Now how do US sins make those of Cuba in imprisoning people for advocating for different political systems or allowing Cubans to choose their leadership any less terrible?

[Rippounet]

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

I'm really getting tired of the coup nonsense that keeps getting brought up. "We are innocent little lambs, but the big bad US is here to get us". It's pretty obvious that Castro was using the notion of coups to consolidate power. After all, its what many regimes try to do: label anyone who disagrees with you as a dissident to alienate them from politics.

Certainly, Castro used the threats against him to reinforce his power.
But in his case, the threats were so real it makes one wonder what he originally wanted... Have you even read any of those articles about the CIA's assassination attempts?
Here's one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/26/fidel-castro-cia-cigar-assasination-attempts

So yes, an authoritarian regime will jail dissidents. This doesn't change the fact that the US systematically supported dissidents in socialist countries. I don't know whether Castro was an innocent little lamb (probably not), but the big bad US was certainly out to get him.

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

My explanation was very simple because there is not much to it. Yes, it's true that to a certain extent the US did undermine Cuba, but that's just how countries operate. it most certainly isn't unique to the US. Countries have been doing it for eons.

Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. No country on earth has ever had the means to interfere in the political and economic life of so many foreign nations throughout the world. And if you think otherwise the best case scenario is that you're blissfully ignorant of the world you live in. I have right next to me a 600-page book analysing the reports of the Church and Rockefeller committees. The first 300 pages detail CIA operations in Chili, Congo, Vietnam, the Dominican Republic and... Cuba. Don't you remember the Bay of Pigs? And that is just the tip of the iceberg. One of my colleagues wrote her 500-page thesis on the USIA. Do you even know what the USIA is? You should because it's still here under another name. I did my research on the Reagan years. Remember Iran-Contra or do you really know absolutely nothing about history?
You say you are "tired of the coup nonsense" ? So am I. Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, Congo in 1960, Dominican Republic in 1961, Vietnam in 1963, Brazil in 1964, Chili in 1973... Are you so fucking ignorant that you've never heard of those? And those are the documented, rock-solid historical cases. What about Nicaragua? What about Venezuela, Panama, Grenada, Honduras... etc ? Do you know what the Roosevelt corollary to the Monroe doctrine means? Do you think people who see the CIA's hand everywhere are paranoid and crazy? Ever heard of psychological operations? Of gray and black propaganda? Of the purpose of the National Endowment for Democracy?
Do you have any clue as to what it means when the US is actively trying to undermine a specific government? Any idea as to the power and money that can be channelled in a heartbeat to completely annihilate the government of a foreign nation? Because it seems to me you have no idea what Cuba was up against for half a freaking century.

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Blaming the embargo for Cuba's lack of development is absolutely ridiculous. At some point, you need to stand on your own two feet.

And just what do you mean by that? What "lack of development" are you talking about? What do you mean by "standing on your own two feet" ? Do you not understand I'm saying that Cuba is doing all right in spite of everything?

54 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Now how do US sins make those of Cuba in imprisoning people for advocating for different political systems or allowing Cubans to choose their leadership any less terrible?

They don't. But relentlessy focusing on Cuba's democratic failings prevent any objective analysis of its socio-economic system.
Which is, of course, the whole point.