The Battle of the Starks?

[devilish]

Robb’s stupidity in declaring himself king contributed greatly in actually killing him. There again it did open a window of opportunity for Northerners to exploit. Robb died as a king, which means his heirs are other kings or queens.The North is basically impossible to invade and hold and with Edmure out of the way all links with the Riverlands are severely strained. No one will feel aggrieved if the Starks do not come to the rescue especially since

a-      Its Winter

b-      The North has their hands full with wildlings, iron islanders, Southern invaders and a treacherous LP in command

c-       The Riverlanders killed the King they pledged allegiance to. The North remembers

Having said that, if by some miracle the North is unite and return to their former power then the Riverlands are theirs by right. The Riverlands pledged allegiance to King Robb. Such claim is inherited by his heirs.

That gives the Stark children immense power, which explain why both Tyrells and Lannisters ‘fought’ their way to get Sansa in their ranks.

Currently the North is lead by the Boltons. They are tolerated because

a-      The Boltons can hold on their own

b-      Most houses still have family members who are held as hostages

c-       Killing Roose will leave a power vacuum that only a Stark can possibly fill

Northern houses love to speak about honour etc but they aren’t stupid. Most are fiercely loyal to the Starks.  Stating that, they will use this window of opportunity to improve their status. This will lead to houses getting close to the Stark available to them and to fight for him against any sort of ‘competition’.

So here are the competition

Stannis/wildlings candidate – Jon Snow (the military option)

Adv:

-          He’s an experienced fighter and he’s got an army at his side (the wildlings).

-          Jon Snow has completed his education so he knows which houses to trust and which houses not to trust

Disv

-          Unless Robb’s leaves a will, then Jon Snow can only be legitimised thanks to a king ie Stannis. The North is in no mood to declare fealty to a Baratheon

-          Some houses will argue that they don’t consider Stannis as king and even if they do, Jon is a legitimised bastard. He shouldn’t inherit the title ahead of Sansa, Rickon and Bran

-          Stannis is not liked very much

-          Jon is an adult. He won’t allow Stannis to use him as his puppet especially if he ends up with an army which is way bigger then his

Reed- Bran (the magic option)

House Reed’s green dreams ability had allowed them to anticipate others and get close to the true heir of Winterfell ahead of everybody. Adv:

-          He’s the rightful heir to Winterfell and the North

-          His magical powers are increasing. If he’s able to nick one of Danny’s dragons then he will trump over the rest

Disv

-          The Reeds might be a tough cookie to beat in their lands. However Bran is far North and the Reeds do not have the troops to seriously challenge Roose

-          Bran is crippled. There will be question marks about how he can lead the North or whether he can have children

Sansa – Vale (the GOT game option)

Adv:

-          Sansa has been trained in the game of thrones by possible 3 of the best in it (LF, Tyrion and Cersei).

-          If she convinces the Knight of the Vale to fight for her then she’ll probably have a bigger army then anybody in the fragmented North can possibly master

-          There are currently better available male matchups in Westeros (Sweet Robin, Euron Greyjoy, Willas Tyrell, Aegon Targeryan, Lancel Lannister, LF) then women matchups (Arrianne Martell, Cersei Lannister)

-          Bran’s ambition is to fly, JS is to live an honourable life, Arya to get her revenge and Rickon is too young to build up an ambition just yet. Sansa wants power. She’s in no mood to be used as a pawn again and will fight her way to independence

Disv

-          Sansa is a woman in a male dominated world. People will be willing to defend her but will struggle to obey her commands

-          As a woman she’s behind Bran and Rickon in inheriting WF and possibly JS

Rickon – House Maderly

Adv

-          He’s still a boy ie he’s easily controlled

-          He’s  the only non bastard Stark left whose not crippled

-          House Manderly is on his tracks. If they get his hands over him then I can see the North uniting to push his claims. Stannis might decide to jump on Rickon’s bandwagon abandoning JS

Disv

-          He’s technically third in line behind Bran

-          If Sansa moves quickly she should be able to smash opposition and declare herself queen of the North before Rickon’s camp can act.

Arya – FM option

Sooner or later Arya will return and she will learn that ultimately wars can only be won with an army.

Adv

-          She will probably get enough training from the FM to kill anybody she wants

-          She’s unmarried which means she can seal an alliance with almost anybody

-          She’s frigging angry. At this point she must have acknowledged that the Stark males are pretty useless and once she learns about Farya hell will go loose.

-          She’s close to Gendry whose a bastard but whose still  has royal blood

Disv

-          She way down in the Starks lineage

-          No one knows she still alive and many will be suspicious at her especially after what happened with Farya

I don’t believe that the Starks sibling will intentionally fight one another however with banner men fighting for their top horse, with JS trying to protect his siblings from being manipulated and with Sansa refusing to become a pawn again then I can see some friction going on.  

 

[a black swan]

Robb's Will? 

Plus hasn't "Arya Stark" already asserting her status as heir to Winterfell. 

With FM abilities, do you even need an army if you can infiltrate and take out key targets? Avoiding battles and still posing a formidable threat to your enemies? Arya can prove her identity by rolling up to Winterfell with Nymeria. 

 

Anyway, what's missing in the idea of the Starks battling one another.... it seems very out of character and there really is no need. Rickon will likely die soon. Bran has more important things to consider right now. Sansa can't inherit anything. Arya will return after the job is already done by Jon who finishes what Stannis has started. Arya might even return with Robb's crown and would eagerly follow Jon as King. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Robb didn't crown himself. His most powerful bannermen and vassals crowned him in the middle of a war. He was kinda pushed into it, y'know? What could he do, say 'no thanks, guys, but next time I'll call you back'. Robb committed some errors, but he wasn't guilty of this one me thinks.

Even more, they crowned him King of the Trident aswell. Jeez. People were trying really hard to gain something from him during that war.

[Greywater-Watch]

Competition between the Starks for the succession of Robb as King of the North?

I never thought of that, I had more the succession for Winterfell and Warden of the North in mind. And already in this "smaller matter" (at the moment pure survival is crucial for each of the Starks, resurrection in case of Jon) I do not feel hostility between the Starks.

Except if Sansa should put forward her claim and her treason in Kings Landing became known (through Bran e.g.) or her possible disinheritage by Robb should anger her. But even with Sansa, I believe rejoining the surviving family members would just make her happy.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

It would be kind of funny, as so many of us have been desperate for a Homeward Bound-style reunion of the Stark kids since GOT, if next they saw each other they started knocking lumps out of each other. However, I don’t think it’s really in character for any of them. Their characters could develop though. I think Sansa might be the one to watch, as LF may mould her into something dark, and she always had a difficult relationship with Arya and Jon anyway.

[Adam Yozza]

On 09/12/2016 at 0:08 PM, DutchArya said:

Rickon will likely die soon.

What makes you think this?

Aside from that I agree with the rest of your post.

[JLE]

I think it can be safely said that no Northern lord actually gives half a damn about holding on to the Riverlands, even if they succeed in putting a Stark back in Winterfell, and even if they succeed in holding on to Northern independence against the South. When Riverlands lords declared for "King Robb", it was of their own free will, and if new River lords (or the old ones) decide not to join the North kingdom, there is nothing that the North either can do to prevent them, or will care about in any case. Their dreams are of a Free North with all-comers kept at bay in the Neck by Moat Cailin as a southern outpost to guard the road: if the southern lands choose to leave, let them, they were never "one of us" anyway.

[Nevets]

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

Robb’s stupidity in declaring himself king contributed greatly in actually killing him. There again it did open a window of opportunity for Northerners to exploit. Robb died as a king, which means his heirs are other kings or queens.The North is basically impossible to invade and hold and with Edmure out of the way all links with the Riverlands are severely strained. No one will feel aggrieved if the Starks do not come to the rescue especially since

 

a-      Its Winter

 

b-      The North has their hands full with wildlings, iron islanders, Southern invaders and a treacherous LP in command

 

c-       The Riverlanders killed the King they pledged allegiance to. The North remembers

 

Having said that, if by some miracle the North is unite and return to their former power then the Riverlands are theirs by right. The Riverlands pledged allegiance to King Robb. Such claim is inherited by his heirs.

The North is going to be far too busy too intervene in the Riverlands.  That being said, if a Stark were to present themselves, they would likely be welcomed.  As Daven Lannister put it, "Methinks their hearts are ... wolfish".  That's assuming there are enough Starks left to go around by then.

 

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

Currently the North is lead by the Boltons. They are tolerated because

 

a-      The Boltons can hold on their own

 

b-      Most houses still have family members who are held as hostages

 

c-       Killing Roose will leave a power vacuum that only a Stark can possibly fill

They are only tolerated because they have more military power than anyone else, especially with Frey support, and because they have "Arya" in the hands.  I think the Northerners are simply looking for a good moment to strike back at the Boltons.  The Boltons are on thin ice, and Roose, at least, knows it.  

 

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

So here are the competition

 

Stannis/wildlings candidate – Jon Snow (the military option)

 

Adv:

 

-          He’s an experienced fighter and he’s got an army at his side (the wildlings).

 

-          Jon Snow has completed his education so he knows which houses to trust and which houses not to trust

 

Disv

 

-          Unless Robb’s leaves a will, then Jon Snow can only be legitimised thanks to a king ie Stannis. The North is in no mood to declare fealty to a Baratheon

 

-          Some houses will argue that they don’t consider Stannis as king and even if they do, Jon is a legitimised bastard. He shouldn’t inherit the title ahead of Sansa, Rickon and Bran

 

-          Stannis is not liked very much

 

-          Jon is an adult. He won’t allow Stannis to use him as his puppet especially if he ends up with an army which is way bigger then his

The biggest disadvantage with regards to Jon is that he is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and has no interest in ruling the North.  His attention is focused on the Others, and I doubt that the assassination (attempt?) will change that.  The only way he will take power if it is necessary for the fight against the Others.  Which would most likely be if he needed to take the position to gain Northern support, either because they were leaderless or preoccupied with fighting the Boltons.  

Any provision in Robb's Will making him King will only be effective if he wants it to.  In any case, he is not Stannis's man.  Jon is only supporting him because he's the only game in town.

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

Reed- Bran (the magic option)

 

House Reed’s green dreams ability had allowed them to anticipate others and get close to the true heir of Winterfell ahead of everybody. Adv:

 

-          He’s the rightful heir to Winterfell and the North

 

-          His magical powers are increasing. If he’s able to nick one of Danny’s dragons then he will trump over the rest

 

Disv

 

-          The Reeds might be a tough cookie to beat in their lands. However Bran is far North and the Reeds do not have the troops to seriously challenge Roose

 

-          Bran is crippled. There will be question marks about how he can lead the North or whether he can have children

Bran's role will be in the realm of the magical.  I doubt he is interested in power and is probably too young and inexperienced to wield it in any case.  His being crippled will also be a major drawback. Btw, Bran isn't the Reed candidate.  They are only helping him as far as his magical capabilities.

 

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

Sansa – Vale (the GOT game option)

 

Adv:

 

-          Sansa has been trained in the game of thrones by possible 3 of the best in it (LF, Tyrion and Cersei).

 

-          If she convinces the Knight of the Vale to fight for her then she’ll probably have a bigger army then anybody in the fragmented North can possibly master

 

-          There are currently better available male matchups in Westeros (Sweet Robin, Euron Greyjoy, Willas Tyrell, Aegon Targeryan, Lancel Lannister, LF) then women matchups (Arrianne Martell, Cersei Lannister)

 

-          Bran’s ambition is to fly, JS is to live an honourable life, Arya to get her revenge and Rickon is too young to build up an ambition just yet. Sansa wants power. She’s in no mood to be used as a pawn again and will fight her way to independence

 

Disv

 

-          Sansa is a woman in a male dominated world. People will be willing to defend her but will struggle to obey her commands

 

-          As a woman she’s behind Bran and Rickon in inheriting WF and possibly JS

Sansa's biggest disadvantage is that she has almost certainly been disinherited by Robb's Will.  This will likely make it impossible for her to take effective control of the North if she is perceived as someone else's puppet (i.e. Littlefinger's).  This would likely be ignored if she were perceived as her own person.  

Sansa's training and experience will likely carry her a long ways, and if she is able to gain control of the military and food supply in the Vale, she can probably do a lot to help the North.  If Jon remains with the NW, and Bran is unavailable, Sansa could be the choice to run Winterfell.

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

Arya – FM option

 

Sooner or later Arya will return and she will learn that ultimately wars can only be won with an army.

 

Adv

 

-          She will probably get enough training from the FM to kill anybody she wants

 

-          She’s unmarried which means she can seal an alliance with almost anybody

 

-          She’s frigging angry. At this point she must have acknowledged that the Stark males are pretty useless and once she learns about Farya hell will go loose.

 

-          She’s close to Gendry whose a bastard but whose still  has royal blood

 

Disv

 

-          She way down in the Starks lineage

 

-          No one knows she still alive and many will be suspicious at her especially after what happened with Farya

Actually, Arya does not appear to be getting any training in killing people, nor do I think she is going to.  If George were going to make her an assassin, she would be well advanced in training by now, considering the time constraints.  She knows a lot about getting info, which is likely where she will excel.  Tbh, figuring out the FM's interest in Arya is difficult, but I don't think it is in making her an assassin.  I think they want to have an agent in the high levels of Westeros society.

I don't think she is angry with any Starks.  Her anger is directed at the Lannisters and their allies.  All the people on her list are Lannisters or their men.  Whiel I think she might be angry about FArya, that anger will likely be directed at the Lannisters and Boltons, and probably Littlefinger.  As for Gendry, nobody knows who he is, and there is no proof of his heritage.  That horse has no legs.  They may meet again, but that's about it.

Proving who she is could be a problem, unless she has Nymeria with her.  There are people who can identify her, though.  There are some Winterfell refugees in Winter Harbor, plus Brotherhood men.  Edric Dayne, is one person who is well-known who can identify her.

On 12/9/2016 at 8:36 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Competition between the Starks for the succession of Robb as King of the North?

I never thought of that, I had more the succession for Winterfell and Warden of the North in mind. And already in this "smaller matter" (at the moment pure survival is crucial for each of the Starks, resurrection in case of Jon) I do not feel hostility between the Starks.

Except if Sansa should put forward her claim and her treason in Kings Landing became known (through Bran e.g.) or her possible disinheritage by Robb should anger her. But even with Sansa, I believe rejoining the surviving family members would just make her happy.

What treason is that?  If you are referring to her blabbing to Cersei, while ill-advised, it hardly rises to the level of treason.  In any case, I doubt it will be discovered by the others, and even if it were, enough has happened in the interim it would probably be something of a moot point

On 12/9/2016 at 4:23 AM, devilish said:

I don’t believe that the Starks sibling will intentionally fight one another however with banner men fighting for their top horse, with JS trying to protect his siblings from being manipulated and with Sansa refusing to become a pawn again then I can see some friction going on.

I certainly see the possibility for some friction, but the Starks are nothing like the Lannisters.  They actually love one another, and don't even fantasize about hurting any of the others.  While they may ahve differences that need sorting out, ultimate, I think they will all wind up on roughly the same side.  I see little likelihood for open warfare between them 

 

 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 12/9/2016 at 6:23 AM, devilish said:

She’s frigging angry. At this point she must have acknowledged that the Stark males are pretty useless and once she learns about Farya hell will go loose.

When has this possibility ever been hinted at?  Before she went to Braavos, Arya desired to get to Jon at the Wall.  The Farya plot has nothing to do with the Starks.

[Protagoras]

I have a hard time seeing a Stark vs Stark struggle. if that happens, Sansa is going to be the stark that attacks one of the other and even then it will most likely be Littlefingers machinations.

Arya or Bran have no or little interest in the title, Rickon is too young (and I doubt he survive the series). Jon and Sansa are the ones remaining and then it is basically a question of "whose plot power triggers first" and "What happens when R+L =J is proved, if it is".

[devilish]

12 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I have a hard time seeing a Stark vs Stark struggle. if that happens, Sansa is going to be the stark that attacks one of the other and even then it will most likely be Littlefingers machinations.

Arya or Bran have no or little interest in the title, Rickon is too young (and I doubt he survive the series). Jon and Sansa are the ones remaining and then it is basically a question of "whose plot power triggers first" and "What happens when R+L =J is proved, if it is".

I can't see the Starks attacking one another either. However there is powerful political mechanisms luring behind the scene that might give the Starks little choice on the matter. Don't forget that most are still too young to rule. Others are mere women and all Starks wants what's good for the realm.

To give you an example what would happen if the Manderlys camp refuse to bend the knee to a bastard and claim that Rickon deserves the title ahead of Jon Snow? What happens if Sansa ends up marrying an Arryn with the promise of joining the two realms, she rides North at the back of an enormous army and free the North from the Boltons? Will she just free the throne to her brothers and return to her 'baby generator' role in the Vale? A role she had learnt to hate? What about Jon Snow? Will he just accept to be commanded by his younger siblings especially if they happen to be mere puppets of other bannermen? What would happen if lets say, Sansa ends up in command and she simply doesn't care about the other's threat?

 

Also will the North even contemplate being ruled by some cripple?

 

 

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

On Friday, December 09, 2016 at 5:23 AM, devilish said:

Robb’s stupidity in declaring himself king contributed greatly in actually killing him. There again it did open a window of opportunity for Northerners to exploit. Robb died as a king, which means his heirs are other kings or queens.The North is basically impossible to invade and hold and with Edmure out of the way all links with the Riverlands are severely strained. No one will feel aggrieved if the Starks do not come to the rescue especially since

 

a-      Its Winter

 

b-      The North has their hands full with wildlings, iron islanders, Southern invaders and a treacherous LP in command

 

c-       The Riverlanders killed the King they pledged allegiance to. The North remembers

 

Having said that, if by some miracle the North is unite and return to their former power then the Riverlands are theirs by right. The Riverlands pledged allegiance to King Robb. Such claim is inherited by his heirs.

 

That gives the Stark children immense power, which explain why both Tyrells and Lannisters ‘fought’ their way to get Sansa in their ranks.

 

Currently the North is lead by the Boltons. They are tolerated because

 

a-      The Boltons can hold on their own

 

b-      Most houses still have family members who are held as hostages

 

c-       Killing Roose will leave a power vacuum that only a Stark can possibly fill

 

Northern houses love to speak about honour etc but they aren’t stupid. Most are fiercely loyal to the Starks.  Stating that, they will use this window of opportunity to improve their status. This will lead to houses getting close to the Stark available to them and to fight for him against any sort of ‘competition’.

 

So here are the competition

 

Stannis/wildlings candidate – Jon Snow (the military option)

 

Adv:

 

-          He’s an experienced fighter and he’s got an army at his side (the wildlings).

 

-          Jon Snow has completed his education so he knows which houses to trust and which houses not to trust

 

Disv

 

-          Unless Robb’s leaves a will, then Jon Snow can only be legitimised thanks to a king ie Stannis. The North is in no mood to declare fealty to a Baratheon

 

-          Some houses will argue that they don’t consider Stannis as king and even if they do, Jon is a legitimised bastard. He shouldn’t inherit the title ahead of Sansa, Rickon and Bran

 

-          Stannis is not liked very much

 

-          Jon is an adult. He won’t allow Stannis to use him as his puppet especially if he ends up with an army which is way bigger then his

 

Reed- Bran (the magic option)

 

House Reed’s green dreams ability had allowed them to anticipate others and get close to the true heir of Winterfell ahead of everybody. Adv:

 

-          He’s the rightful heir to Winterfell and the North

 

-          His magical powers are increasing. If he’s able to nick one of Danny’s dragons then he will trump over the rest

 

Disv

 

-          The Reeds might be a tough cookie to beat in their lands. However Bran is far North and the Reeds do not have the troops to seriously challenge Roose

 

-          Bran is crippled. There will be question marks about how he can lead the North or whether he can have children

 

Sansa – Vale (the GOT game option)

 

Adv:

 

-          Sansa has been trained in the game of thrones by possible 3 of the best in it (LF, Tyrion and Cersei).

 

-          If she convinces the Knight of the Vale to fight for her then she’ll probably have a bigger army then anybody in the fragmented North can possibly master

 

-          There are currently better available male matchups in Westeros (Sweet Robin, Euron Greyjoy, Willas Tyrell, Aegon Targeryan, Lancel Lannister, LF) then women matchups (Arrianne Martell, Cersei Lannister)

 

-          Bran’s ambition is to fly, JS is to live an honourable life, Arya to get her revenge and Rickon is too young to build up an ambition just yet. Sansa wants power. She’s in no mood to be used as a pawn again and will fight her way to independence

 

Disv

 

-          Sansa is a woman in a male dominated world. People will be willing to defend her but will struggle to obey her commands

 

-          As a woman she’s behind Bran and Rickon in inheriting WF and possibly JS

 

Rickon – House Maderly

 

Adv

 

-          He’s still a boy ie he’s easily controlled

 

-          He’s  the only non bastard Stark left whose not crippled

 

-          House Manderly is on his tracks. If they get his hands over him then I can see the North uniting to push his claims. Stannis might decide to jump on Rickon’s bandwagon abandoning JS

 

Disv

 

-          He’s technically third in line behind Bran

 

-          If Sansa moves quickly she should be able to smash opposition and declare herself queen of the North before Rickon’s camp can act.

 

Arya – FM option

 

Sooner or later Arya will return and she will learn that ultimately wars can only be won with an army.

 

Adv

 

-          She will probably get enough training from the FM to kill anybody she wants

 

-          She’s unmarried which means she can seal an alliance with almost anybody

 

-          She’s frigging angry. At this point she must have acknowledged that the Stark males are pretty useless and once she learns about Farya hell will go loose.

 

-          She’s close to Gendry whose a bastard but whose still  has royal blood

 

Disv

 

-          She way down in the Starks lineage

 

-          No one knows she still alive and many will be suspicious at her especially after what happened with Farya

 

I don’t believe that the Starks sibling will intentionally fight one another however with banner men fighting for their top horse, with JS trying to protect his siblings from being manipulated and with Sansa refusing to become a pawn again then I can see some friction going on.  

 

 

 

 

Robb didn't declare himself King, his bannermen declared him their King. Huge difference.  A minor nitpick but it's important in Robb's character.  Renly declared HIMSELF king, putting Robb in the same boat as him is unfair.

[Protagoras]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

I can't see the Starks attacking one another either. However there is powerful political mechanisms luring behind the scene that might give the Starks little choice on the matter. Don't forget that most are still too young to rule. Others are mere women and all Starks wants what's good for the realm.

To give you an example what would happen if the Manderlys camp refuse to bend the knee to a bastard and claim that Rickon deserves the title ahead of Jon Snow? What happens if Sansa ends up marrying an Arryn with the promise of joining the two realms, she rides North at the back of an enormous army and free the North from the Boltons? Will she just free the throne to her brothers and return to her 'baby generator' role in the Vale? A role she had learnt to hate? What about Jon Snow? Will he just accept to be commanded by his younger siblings especially if they happen to be mere puppets of other bannermen? What would happen if lets say, Sansa ends up in command and she simply doesn't care about the other's threat?

 

Also will the North even contemplate being ruled by some cripple?

 

 

True, but then they are not "really" fighting each other but the mechanisms and their allies is fighting in their stead. 

But you are correct that this might be likelier than I expected. I have long suggested a darker Jon Snow resurrection and I could see him ignoring his simblings claim even in the face of R+L=J. And i do agree that there will be a chaotic, less fluent situation in the north with different camps and different agendas (my main problem with the GNC is that its too "neat", somehow everyone works for the same person(s) and idea...naaah). 

[Slowpoke Martin]

No way. Unless GRRM magically pulls another book out of his ass, there is no time to write about a Stark civil war when we still have to get through:

- Stannis' war for the north

- Dany's war for Meereen

- Aegon's war for the crown

- Euron's war for the crown

- Cersei's war for the crown

- Aegon vs Dany

Who knows how many other unforeseen things might come up. And to top it all off, we still have the war for the dawn which should be the most important and biggest war.

Of course, a Stark civil war doesn't make much sense since their family is shattered and should be coming together for the winter.

[devilish]

38 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

No way. Unless GRRM magically pulls another book out of his ass, there is no time to write about a Stark civil war when we still have to get through:

- Stannis' war for the north

- Dany's war for Meereen

- Aegon's war for the crown

- Euron's war for the crown

- Cersei's war for the crown

- Aegon vs Dany

Who knows how many other unforeseen things might come up. And to top it all off, we still have the war for the dawn which should be the most important and biggest war.

Of course, a Stark civil war doesn't make much sense since their family is shattered and should be coming together for the winter.

`Well he can always cuts it short by having the Others invading the wall or Danny marching her army and dragons down to the Southern borders. At that point all the family will be forced to unite against a common enemy.

However I can see friction between all parties. 

a- Sansa doesn't want to be traded away. She had already had her fill on that. GRRM hasn't invested so much time in building relationship between Sansa and possibly the best players of the game of thrones to throw everything away like that. She'll get her chance of playing the game too. 
b- Jon Snow might feel uncomfortable being lead by children, especially if those children are being manipulated by third parties
c- The North my struggle to unite itself at the back of either a bastard or a cripple. Rickon is too young and will probably end up Stannis/Manderly plaything and Sansa is a woman. 

[Morgana Lannister]

I quite like the idea of being other houses the ones creating possible tensions between various Stark "candidates", although agreed yeah I don't think the Reeds are going to be terribly concerned about who rules WF but more in Bran for his abilities.  I personally think the Manderleys or something in that plot is going to go pear shape which may result in Rickon's death.  The reason I think he is not going to make it is because if Bran chooses a different role for himself and Jon is either dead or overall King or something then he would end up Lord of Winterfell and I just cannot see a character we hardly know getting this.  My wager is definitely on a POV character, just as I cannot see Casterly Rock in the hands of a non POV character either (although this could be Jaime or his descendants if any...) so if I were to be right on this plot-wise Rickon would be "in the way."  However I am sure his death will contribute to the drama and the plot somehow.

Jon is the obvious choice for the military role as OP pointed out and Sansa the game player/diplomat.  I could easily see Jon as KITN and either Bran or Sansa as Lord/Lady of WF but with Bran less involved in the day to day running of the castle as I believe he has a bigger and much more magical role to play.

It is true that a lot has to happen in the books and that we only have 2 left, however every book has contained lots of sub-plots involving so many houses and characters that I frankly lose track that I could see room for some initial squabbles whether brought about by the characters themselves or by their backers.  IMHO this would serve the purpose of making their almost unconditional co-operation with each other in the end more pronounced.  The plots overall are moving slowly.  Arya with the FM, Tyrion doing very little with the Second Sons (although given the chapters from TWOW, thank the gods this appears to be moving a bit), Dany lost in the wilderness and so on whilst the Meereen plot is still unresolved... so it seems to me that we are going to get to get some action in TWOW (namely the two battles)  but that it is still a slow build up for what is to come in ADOS, where things I believe will contract and come together at a much faster pace and the only way to survival will be unity.

Now, for all my complaining about the Tyrion, Arya etc plots moving too slowly (we get it they have to go from phase 2 or their respective arcs to phase 3 in a credible way), Sansa, although theoretically doing little in the Vale for now, is learning interesting stuff which I am sure is going to be important.  The intel re the hoarding of the food I believe is going to be paramount at some point, so are her potential suitors:  Harry the Heir and Robin.  I honestly cannot see either of them being end game with her, although one or the other could be useful to get her the Ladyship of the Vale.  I could see her marrying one or the other but he would have to die shortly afterwards, me thinks, simply because again it would add drama to the plot and because they would be on the way to her with say, Sandor (as a lot of fans want), Tyrion (as a power super-couple) or even the Virgin Queen sort of role that many fans also like.  So for a Vale Lord to marry her, to me that is a fictional death sentence and of course it would be LF the one to orchestrate it without her consent.  She might not be very fond of either guy (Robin/Harry) but I don't think she is going to stay quiet like she did with the death of Lysa.  In fact I think the realisation that LF is planning to murder one or the other might detonate her "coming all out" with backing from the Vale Lords and, directly or not, causing LF's downfall. Now of course the one out of the two "possible suitors" to be targetted (or the one of the two who remains alive) will be Lord of the Vale and if she saves his life, even without a marriage, there may be gratitude plus, if she plays her cards right she can expose LF over Lysa's death.  Granted that leaves her exposed for lying on his behalf but she could play the "victim/ I was scared / had no choice" card after she has redeemed herself by preventing their Lord's assassination and making the food available...  Where I am going with this?  Well basically to the almost certainty that she will have the Vale's backing.  Now, Brienne, if she survives LSH (which I am certain she will) is still around looking for her and has Jaime's backing...  Tyrion and Jaime are at odds right now but I don't think that will be permanent and incidentally Tyrion could cause havoc if the tribes still chose to back him (when he is back in Westeros which I see as unavoidable) especially if his "wife" is releasing the food...  Sansa could indeed become a force to be reckoned with...

So although I am all for the idea that in the last book or towards the end of the next one everything will contract and people will have to "sleep with the enemy" to survive and forget silly squabbles TWOW could still contain a lot of slower moving conflicts of interest and disharmony.  The Starks will unite because they are by and large (including Sansa) loyal to one another but as for the various warring houses around it will be a case of they will only unite when there is evidence of the WWs thread that cannot be ignored.  This won't happen overnight other than in the North (who already have tons of at least legends and WWs will get to them first), so slow moving book with some underlying tensions makes sense to me.

Now as for Arya, she is the last in line being the second daughter plus her abilities are more military, although I agree stealth is her true weapon,  I keep saying that, if she survives, which I hope she does, in the new world she is likely to become Head of Intelligence.  I cannot see her sitting around in WF, with or without the approval of characters like Jon who will have her best interest at heart, she is going to get into the thick of it when the battle of Dawn comes.  She has that kind of courage and motivation.  I think by them both her and Tyrion would have come to the conclusion that revenge for the kick of it is overrated but I can't see her giving up the fight, if this makes sense.  Bran has his magic and super warging skills, Jon his talent for leadership, Sansa her gaming skills... all will be needed although I see Sansa the one in charge of the daily running of the castle and provisions etc whilst the others "walk the walk" up the Wall or wherever.  I really like Arya but she would be bored to tears listening to petitioners, even Dany was lol but Sansa, just like Tyrion say, would accept that in peace time and would probably endure it quite happily over a cup of wine lol  In my humble opinion, it comes to "division of labour", they will all co-operate in the end but fulfill very different roles and the same goes for the Stark kids.  I think we will get an ending where the surviving ones will all get an important role, even if only one or two of the Stark children can actually hold a title.

 

[Morgana Lannister]

2 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

No way. Unless GRRM magically pulls another book out of his ass, there is no time to write about a Stark civil war when we still have to get through:

- Stannis' war for the north

- Dany's war for Meereen

- Aegon's war for the crown

- Euron's war for the crown

- Cersei's war for the crown

- Aegon vs Dany

Who knows how many other unforeseen things might come up. And to top it all off, we still have the war for the dawn which should be the most important and biggest war.

Of course, a Stark civil war doesn't make much sense since their family is shattered and should be coming together for the winter.

Get your point, but I don't believe it will be a full civil war, just underlying tensions

[devilish]

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I quite like the idea of being other houses the ones creating possible tensions between various Stark "candidates", although agreed yeah I don't think the Reeds are going to be terribly concerned about who rules WF but more in Bran for his abilities.  I personally think the Manderleys or something in that plot is going to go pear shape which may result in Rickon's death.  The reason I think he is not going to make it is because if Bran chooses a different role for himself and Jon is either dead or overall King or something then he would end up Lord of Winterfell and I just cannot see a character we hardly know getting this.  My wager is definitely on a POV character, just as I cannot see Casterly Rock in the hands of a non POV character either (although this could be Jaime or his descendants if any...) so if I were to be right on this plot-wise Rickon would be "in the way."  However I am sure his death will contribute to the drama and the plot somehow.

Jon is the obvious choice for the military role as OP pointed out and Sansa the game player/diplomat.  I could easily see Jon as KITN and either Bran or Sansa as Lord/Lady of WF but with Bran less involved in the day to day running of the castle as I believe he has a bigger and much more magical role to play.

It is true that a lot has to happen in the books and that we only have 2 left, however every book has contained lots of sub-plots involving so many houses and characters that I frankly lose track that I could see room for some initial squabbles whether brought about by the characters themselves or by their backers.  IMHO this would serve the purpose of making their almost unconditional co-operation with each other in the end more pronounced.  The plots overall are moving slowly.  Arya with the FM, Tyrion doing very little with the Second Sons (although given the chapters from TWOW, thank the gods this appears to be moving a bit), Dany lost in the wilderness and so on whilst the Meereen plot is still unresolved... so it seems to me that we are going to get to get some action in TWOW (namely the two battles)  but that it is still a slow build up for what is to come in ADOS, where things I believe will contract and come together at a much faster pace and the only way to survival will be unity.

Now, for all my complaining about the Tyrion, Arya etc plots moving too slowly (we get it they have to go from phase 2 or their respective arcs to phase 3 in a credible way), Sansa, although theoretically doing little in the Vale for now, is learning interesting stuff which I am sure is going to be important.  The intel re the hoarding of the food I believe is going to be paramount at some point, so are her potential suitors:  Harry the Heir and Robin.  I honestly cannot see either of them being end game with her, although one or the other could be useful to get her the Ladyship of the Vale.  I could see her marrying one or the other but he would have to die shortly afterwards, me thinks, simply because again it would add drama to the plot and because they would be on the way to her with say, Sandor (as a lot of fans want), Tyrion (as a power super-couple) or even the Virgin Queen sort of role that many fans also like.  So for a Vale Lord to marry her, to me that is a fictional death sentence and of course it would be LF the one to orchestrate it without her consent.  She might not be very fond of either guy (Robin/Harry) but I don't think she is going to stay quiet like she did with the death of Lysa.  In fact I think the realisation that LF is planning to murder one or the other might detonate her "coming all out" with backing from the Vale Lords and, directly or not, causing LF's downfall. Now of course the one out of the two "possible suitors" to be targetted (or the one of the two who remains alive) will be Lord of the Vale and if she saves his life, even without a marriage, there may be gratitude plus, if she plays her cards right she can expose LF over Lysa's death.  Granted that leaves her exposed for lying on his behalf but she could play the "victim/ I was scared / had no choice" card after she has redeemed herself by preventing their Lord's assassination and making the food available...  Where I am going with this?  Well basically to the almost certainty that she will have the Vale's backing.  Now, Brienne, if she survives LSH (which I am certain she will) is still around looking for her and has Jaime's backing...  Tyrion and Jaime are at odds right now but I don't think that will be permanent and incidentally Tyrion could cause havoc if the tribes still chose to back him (when he is back in Westeros which I see as unavoidable) especially if his "wife" is releasing the food...  Sansa could indeed become a force to be reckoned with...

So although I am all for the idea that in the last book or towards the end of the next one everything will contract and people will have to "sleep with the enemy" to survive and forget silly squabbles TWOW could still contain a lot of slower moving conflicts of interest and disharmony.  The Starks will unite because they are by and large (including Sansa) loyal to one another but as for the various warring houses around it will be a case of they will only unite when there is evidence of the WWs thread that cannot be ignored.  This won't happen overnight other than in the North (who already have tons of at least legends and WWs will get to them first), so slow moving book with some underlying tensions makes sense to me.

Now as for Arya, she is the last in line being the second daughter plus her abilities are more military, although I agree stealth is her true weapon,  I keep saying that, if she survives, which I hope she does, in the new world she is likely to become Head of Intelligence.  I cannot see her sitting around in WF, with or without the approval of characters like Jon who will have her best interest at heart, she is going to get into the thick of it when the battle of Dawn comes.  She has that kind of courage and motivation.  I think by them both her and Tyrion would have come to the conclusion that revenge for the kick of it is overrated but I can't see her giving up the fight, if this makes sense.  Bran has his magic and super warging skills, Jon his talent for leadership, Sansa her gaming skills... all will be needed although I see Sansa the one in charge of the daily running of the castle and provisions etc whilst the others "walk the walk" up the Wall or wherever.  I really like Arya but she would be bored to tears listening to petitioners, even Dany was lol but Sansa, just like Tyrion say, would accept that in peace time and would probably endure it quite happily over a cup of wine lol  In my humble opinion, it comes to "division of labour", they will all co-operate in the end but fulfill very different roles and the same goes for the Stark kids.  I think we will get an ending where the surviving ones will all get an important role, even if only one or two of the Stark children can actually hold a title.

 

The Starks are rightful rulers to the North and 3rd in line to the Riverlands (behind Edmure and his son). Considering that most River Lords bent the knee to the young wolf, I can’t see them not doing the same if a Stark comes to the rescue with another army, which in turn will infuriate the Lannisters who might retaliate on Edmure and his child.

Assuming the Starks inherit both the Riverlands and the North there’s plenty of land to deliver

a-      The Dreadfort. The Boltons had over exceeded themselves by slaying the King in the North. I can’t see them keeping their lands in any shape or form

b-      Hornwood castle. Ramsey has inherited the lands and the Manderlys were forced to accept his claims. Once Ramsey died then all the land will revert back to the King in the North. Sure Wyman Manderly will try to push his claim again. Now could he be appeased by Sansa/Jon/Bran to swear fealty to them in exchange Of them appointing Rickon as Lord of Hornwood with one of Wyman’s granddaughters as his wife?

c-       Harrenhal -  It’s a magnificent castle which is located very close to the Vale. Its also owned by LF whose got no children whatsoever. Assuming that Sansa marries an Arryn and she can persuade their Warden to send an army to free the North then her inheriting Harrenhal will allow her a certain degree of independence she thrives to without stepping too much over other people’s right of inheritance. The Vale would be happy since they had indirectly added new lands to their domain. The Riverlands will be happy as that would consolidate the alliance between the North, the Vale and the Riverlands

d-      The Twins – What the Freys did is unforgivable so they will probably lose their lands because of it. Considering the attrition between House Reed and House Frey could Reed + Brandon being crippled, could House Reed be persuaded to bend the knee to Jon Snow in exchange of Bran inheriting the twins and Meera marries him?(Jojen will probably die). That would give House Reed more land, which in turn provides them with all the riches the twins can provide. House Reed coffers will be filled (and in exchange they could rebuild Moat Cailin) while the Riverlands will be satisfied knowing that a traitor was brought to justice and the route between the North and the South will always be open in times of need

e-      Riverrun and Winterfell (of course)

f-       The Iron throne. If R+L=J then Jon Snow is not only a possible candidate in riding the dragons but also the glue to unite North and South under the same banner. Danny would be able to marry a Northerner whose not the ‘Usurper’s dog’s’ seed. The Northerners would in turn bend the knee to a King who understands them (Jon has Stark blood in him) and Wintefell will end up owned by a true born Stark.

------------

What I can see happening is

a- Jon Snow resurrects, he leads his small army of Wildlings South against Ramsey

b- I believe that LF's plan will be to have Sansa marry Harrold and then have Sweet Robin killed. After that happens he uses Sansa to plant false evidence that incriminate Harrold of killing the last remaining Arryn. Harrold is executed, Sansa becomes Warden of the Vale and she marries LF. What I think will happen is that Sansa will outsmart LF. She'll convince him that she's in love with him and that she can't marry Harrold unless she's 100% sure LF is in love with her (ie by making her his heir) only to use that evidence against him soon afterwards. LF is killed, Sansa becomes the Lady of Harrenhal and Sweet Robin/Harrold will be grateful so grateful for the close miss to commit the necessary army needed to her cause

c- Rickon will get Lord Manderly's support but the Manderlys will wait, hoping JS and Roose will weaken each other out. 

d- Roose send an army with Ramsey's as its head against Stannis/Jon Snow. At that point, when he thinks he's safe, Arya shows up killing him and then fleeing WF. Ramsey smashes Stannis and nearly defeats Jon Snow's army. When everything seemed lost Sansa's army shows up and break's the Boltons army back. WF is quickly captured soon afterwards. At that point Wyman will declare Rickon king and rightful heir to Winterfell, demanding the North to rally behind their rightful ruler and for foreign invaders to leave

e- Sansa is determined not to allow Lord Manderly to rule in her brother's name while the Northerners are determined not to be ruled by a girl whose surname is Lannister and who was disowned by the King in the North. Jon Snow's plea to stop this senseless war fall in deaf ears. When a war seemed imminent, Brandon shows up, declaring himself the true heir of WF and confirming JS's theories about the others.

Ultimately I can see

a- Arya becoming Lady of the Dreadfort were she lives happily ever after with Gendry

d- Jon Snow marries Danny and she has a child from him. However I think he'll dies to rebalance the power between ice and fire

c- Sansa marrying Harrold and they live happily in Harrenhal

d- After the war, Bran will forfeit his lands and titles prefering to live at the Neck/Twins with Meera. Every year he visits his sister at Harrenhal only to spend some days in the isles of faces

e- Edmure survives but inherits a much smaller Riverlands whose stripped from Harrenhal (which is basically Vale territory) and the twins. He lives happily ever after in Riverrun. 

f- Rickon becomes Warden of the North. 

 

 

 

[a black swan]

43 minutes ago, devilish said:

f- Rickon becomes Warden of the North. 

 

Doubt he even lives passed Winds. 

[Chris Mormont]

First off, Robb did not declare himself King, his banner men, including representatives of all the major houses did.  It was their will that they rule themselves again through the Starks.

Robb left a will which legitimizes Jon and names him heir.  It is true that he did not know Bran, Rickon and Arya were still alive, but he did it anyway and I do not believe it can be undone, unless he wrote it in such a way that it was conditional or based on the fact (which isn't true) that his brothers are dead.

I think the only one who may cause a problem would be Sansa, with LF's prompting and an army of the Vale, she might be the only person who might want to and can start problems between the Stark kids.  

Arya will not care, she loves Jon and would support him.

Bran may be more interested in the magic world than to be a cripple in the real world, but I think Jon is honorable enough to make the offer to Bran.

Rickon is too young to assert a claim.  

That leaves Jon.  If he is resurrected, does he declare that he died at his post and thus is released from his vows?  That would certainly fix that problem and leave him free to lead an army of Wildings down on Winterfell.  The legitimized heir to the King of the North, who has been raised from the dead with an army at his back, what Northern lord would dispute his claim?