The Wex Pyke problem

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, the proposed theory behind this thread falls apart when you consider why the hell Osha would trust an Ironborn mute with knowing the location of the heir to the North. She doesn't know anything about his motivations. He could sell Rickon's location to the Boltons the moment he departed from her company, for all she knows.

So no, I don't think she took him along with her willingly or knowingly. He followed her, just like Manderly said. And apparently he did so without the wolves knowing about it. It is a preposterous chain of events, but apparently Martin does not think so.

Either that, or Manderly is lying to Davos for some as yet unfathomable reason.

[Bironic]

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Look, the proposed theory behind this thread falls apart when you consider why the hell Osha would trust an Ironborn mute with knowing the location of the heir to the North. She doesn't know anything about his motivations. He could sell Rickon's location to the Boltons the moment he departed from her company, for all she knows.

So no, I don't think she took him along with her willingly or knowingly. He followed her, just like Manderly said. And apparently he did so without the wolves knowing about it. It is a preposterous chain of events, but apparently Martin does not think so.

Either that, or Manderly is lying to Davos for some as yet unfathomable reason.

Pretty much agree with that.

But maybe instead of following her, he just overheard her telling Rickon or Luwin that she wants to go to Skagos, and after he heard that he went south along the Kingsroad trying to reach Moat Cailin, but he was soon captured by Manderly men (survivors of the battle perhaps or scouts sent out by Wyman).

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Look, the proposed theory behind this thread falls apart when you consider why the hell Osha would trust an Ironborn mute with knowing the location of the heir to the North. She doesn't know anything about his motivations. He could sell Rickon's location to the Boltons the moment he departed from her company, for all she knows.

Since when is Osha a die-heard Stark loyalist whose greatest interest is to keep little Rickon safe? She is pretty loyal to the gang at Winterfell because she no longer wants to go around in chains. But we don't know anything about her. She could also just dump Rickon on the next Northman and continue to live her life away from grand politics.

Osha could easily enough have grown to trust Wex during the time they spent together. If the boy teamed up with her they could have been together for weeks during which he could actually have demonstrated his loyalty to her and Rickon.

The idea that Osha would actually have told little Rickon where they were going in a loudness that could be overheard by Wex makes very little sense in any possible scenario.

We know that Osha did not talk to Bran and the Reeds about her destination in the godswood so Wex couldn't have heard that back there. And we also know from the report that he only climbed down from the heart tree after they were gone for quite some time. The idea that he could sneak up on them closely enough to actually overhear a conversation without being detected simply makes no sense.

20 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Pretty much agree with that.

But maybe instead of following her, he just overheard her telling Rickon or Luwin that she wants to go to Skagos, and after he heard that he went south along the Kingsroad trying to reach Moat Cailin, but he was soon captured by Manderly men (survivors of the battle perhaps or scouts sent out by Wyman).

If something of that sort happened we would have read that in ACoK. Osha never talks to Luwin or anybody about where they want to go.

18 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Wex deliberately sought out Manderly, as I mentioned above, as part of an overall strategy of clearing Theon's name; possibly even getting help liberating Theon from the Boltons: testifying that the Stark heirs were alive would help to redeem Theon and would motivate loyal northern lords to join forces to find the boys and undermine the Boltons.

One possibility that may have motivated Manderly to figure out communication methods with Wex is that the kid showed up with something that was strongly associated with Bran and/or Rickon. My guess is that Wex took Bran Stark's direwolf broach and gave it to Manderly as a conversation starter. Bran wore the broach to the harvest feast where Manderly was present. Wex had access to the Stark family sleeping chambers when Theon slept in the master bedroom. He could have palmed the broach at any point.

That is actually a pretty good suggestion. Wex comes off as a boy who genuinely liked and tried to impress Theon. And he is also pretty smart. He would see the loyal Northmen and Theon as natural allies considering that Theon did not actually murder Bran and Rickon, and they could vouch for that if they were found alive and healthy by Stark loyalists.

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Lord Lyman said:

If I remember right, that brooch was pinned to the Miller Boy before he was burned, to make people think it was Bran. Theon retrieved but it was nothing more then a melted silver shard. Doubtful it would even be recognizable.

Ah. So it couldn't have been that particular pin. The only other portable, Stark-specific artifact I associate with Bran is Ned's silver direwolf cup that Bran uses at the harvest feast. A little harder for Wex to conceal and carry. Maybe there was no heirloom in hand, but some device like this would help to explain why an unknown child would be allowed into the room with the northern bannermen, and why they would feel motivated to communicate with him. Maybe Rickon also had a direwolf brooch and Wex used that.

On the larger topic of implausible plot holes, I question the idea that six Stark + Snow kids would each train a direwolf pup and bond with them to the exclusion of all other wolf-human bonds in the space of a few months. If we accept that Rickon could command the loyalty of Shaggy Dog when he was only three or four years old, maybe we have to make a few other leaps of faith with regard to Rickon and Osha traveling incognito in spite of the direwolf traveling with or near them.

We do know that Ghost is immediately hostile toward Tyrion, absent whenever Ygritte is near Jon, and immediately accepting of Melisandre. It's possible that Shaggy Dog does know that Wex is shadowing Rickon and Osha, but the direwolf somehow knows that Wex is an ally so he doesn't chase him off, or tear off his arm as Grey Wind does in battle with a Lannister foot soldier.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

Ah. So it couldn't have been that particular pin. The only other portable, Stark-specific artifact I associate with Bran is Ned's silver direwolf cup that Bran uses at the harvest feast. A little harder for Wex to conceal and carry. Maybe there was no heirloom in hand, but some device like this would help to explain why an unknown child would be allowed into the room with the northern bannermen, and why they would feel motivated to communicate with him. Maybe Rickon also had a direwolf brooch and Wex used that.

I suggested Wex might have taken some heirloom/clothing of Rickon's depicting the Stark colors or the direwolf. That would necessitate that they teamed up but we have to assume that Wex had some way to actually make the Manderlys interested in his story. Else he would never have gotten to Lord Wyman even if he had been taken by Manderly men because those wouldn't have been interested all that much in questioning some mute boy (unless we assume that they caught him directly amidst the ruins of Winterfell making the connection that he must be a survivor/witness of what happened there).

[Nittanian]

On 12/10/2016 at 2:56 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

If you or someone could describe what Martin’s unicorn looks like it would be helpful. Again, A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. I think I said Manderly may have them somewhere up the White Knife. Not necessarily on a barge but in a stronghold.  I agree there might be a risk of Bolton finding out.

House Brax from the westerlands uses a unicorn in their sigil, and Ser Flement Brax's decoration is equine.

Quote

A party of mounted horsemen rode forward to challenge them as they approached the stakes. The knight who led them wore silver armor inlaid with amethysts and a striped purple-and-silver cloak. His shield bore a unicorn sigil, and a spiral horn two feet long jutted up from the brow of his horsehead helm. Tyrion reined up to greet him. "Ser Flement." (AGOT Tyrion VII)

While modern depictions of unicorns are almost always horned horses, medieval unicorns were often presented with goat features. 

Quote

The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us. (ADWD Bran III)

 

Quote

The island sat at the mouth of the Bay of Seals, massive and mountainous, a stark and forbidding land peopled by savages. They lived in caves and grim mountain fastnesses, Sam had read, and rode great shaggy unicorns to war. (AFFC Samwell II)

 

Quote

The "unicorns" of Skagos were once scoffed at by maesters at the Citadel. The occasional "unicorn horn" offered by disreputable merchants has never been more than the horn of a kind of whale hunted by the whalers of Ib. However, horns of quite a different kind—reputed to be from Skagos—have been seen by the maesters at Eastwatch upon occasion. It is also said that those seafarers brave enough to trade on Skagos have glimpsed the stoneborn lords riding great, shaggy, horned beasts, monstrous mounts so sure-footed they have been known to climb the sides of mountains. A living example of such a creature—or even a skeleton—has long been sought for study, but none has ever been brought to Oldtown.(TWOIAF The North)

Mountain goats are adept climbers, and Skagos is mountainous. This suggests to me the horned goat encountered by Shaggy is actually a Skagosi unicorn (but not the equine version preferred by House Brax).

Quote

A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. (ADWD Jon I)

 

[Clegane'sPup]

20 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

text

Your post was very informative. Thank you. I screwed up on the quoting and took the easy way out. The ^  above is put together well. Again, Thanks.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 1:14 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Look, the proposed theory behind this thread falls apart when you consider why the hell Osha would trust an Ironborn mute with knowing the location of the heir to the North. She doesn't know anything about his motivations. He could sell Rickon's location to the Boltons the moment he departed from her company, for all she knows.

So no, I don't think she took him along with her willingly or knowingly. He followed her, just like Manderly said. And apparently he did so without the wolves knowing about it. It is a preposterous chain of events, but apparently Martin does not think so.

Either that, or Manderly is lying to Davos for some as yet unfathomable reason.

Not taking an overall stance here but Shaggydog could have theoretically given him the all clear like Summer did with the Liddle.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 11/12/2016 at 7:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that he could sneak up on them closely enough to actually overhear a conversation without being detected simply makes no sense.

I don't think it makes no sense. Shaggydog could have been off hunting, Osha could have been distracted. I'm not saying that these things definitely happened, but there's a number of conceivable scenarios and combinations of events that could allow this to occur. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 12/10/2016 at 0:37 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

George Martin plots with Wex, to push Davos in the direction he wants him to go.

Yes, this is the bottom-line of this entire thread.  This answer does not work for every discussion and is not needed.  Let's give the guy a break lol.  Wex just followed them and found out where they were going ok? Not every sentence of all 7 novels will hold up under doctorate level  scrutinization from this crowd.

22 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Not taking an overall stance here but Shaggydog could have theoretically given him the all clear like Summer did with the Liddle.

Lol nice.  Definitely what happened

Now someone tell me why the wolves had a problem with Tyrion in Winterfell!?

[Clegane'sPup]

8 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

<snip>

Now someone tell me why the wolves had a problem with Tyrion in Winterfell!?

New thread possibility. Someone out there must needs pick up the gauntlet.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yes, this is the bottom-line of this entire thread.  This answer does not work for every discussion and is not needed.  Let's give the guy a break lol.  Wex just followed them and found out where they were going ok? Not every sentence of all 7 novels will hold up under doctorate level  scrutinization from this crowd.

Lol nice.  Definitely what happened

Now someone tell me why the wolves had a problem with Tyrion in Winterfell!?

Cause he's a twisted little monkey demon. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yes, this is the bottom-line of this entire thread.  This answer does not work for every discussion and is not needed.  Let's give the guy a break lol.  Wex just followed them and found out where they were going ok? Not every sentence of all 7 novels will hold up under doctorate level  scrutinization from this crowd.

Lol nice.  Definitely what happened

Now someone tell me why the wolves had a problem with Tyrion in Winterfell!?

Well he did fight against them, without him Baelish would not have gone to meet with the Tyrells, the mountain clans wouldn't have killed all of Stannis's scouts, etc. etc..  Being a Lannister in general could have been enough, especially since a Lannister got Lady killed.

They must take some cues from their masters as well like a normal wolf or dog would.  Robb was openly hostile to Tyrion, and it was Joffrey that sent the murdered after Bran.

[Free Northman Reborn]

There seems to be the unproven assumption in this thread that an Ironborn is not readily identifiable by way of some noticeable characteristic, be it his clothing, body tatoos, mannerisms, personal equipment like daggers or knives marked with Ironborn insignia, or even a racially distinct appearance.

There are any number of ways in which Martin could have revealed Wex's origin to his Manderly captors, and their interest could purely have started from the need to learn what happened at Winterfell.

Then, as they learnt more, the momentous information he was conveying would quickly have made its way up the chain of command, reaching Wyman himself.

There is no need to insist on a scenario where Wex voluntarily sought out the Manderlys. Far more likely he was captured by them, and sang like a mute canary to save his life.