Heresy 193 Winterfell

[Melifeather]

On 1/2/2017 at 5:55 PM, PrettyPig said:

Very very likely  - not to mention their being tumbled about like children's blocks.

Is there reference to this being a belief of the Children?  I thought the Dothraki believed in the moon thing.

But as you know, I'm down with the idea of the cracked moon being a terrestrial thing.   I personally think it was a volcano itself, the crack across the moon being an eruption column.  The "cry of anguish" in the NN tale is the eruption itself.

But that's a different thread.

 

I have a pretty good recall for things I find interesting, but not so good remembering who to credit, but to be honest to get to this point I was utilizing the theory that the three swords forged by Azor Ahai were actually the three extinction events in Westeros passed down as an oral history...which may have come from various peoples...survivors, people in Essos that may have seen or heard about the eruptions, quite possibly the Dothraki peoples, and the Lyseni. Doreah, who was once a Lyseni slave given to Daenerys by her brother Viserys who had gotten her from Illyrio Mopatis, is the source of this quote: 

Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drunk the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame.

[Black Crow]

I don't mind our straying far from Winterfell, but while its possible to work up a disputed argument over lost civilisations pre-dating the Dawn Age, and we haven't come across a half buried statue of Liberty - yet - we are, I fear straying from the present story and while it may amuse GRRM to scatter the odd inexplicable mystery as part of his world building, that world is as it is, rooted in Winterfell and the Wall rather than Asshai. GRRM has told us we're not going to Asshai and while I forget the exact words he said we may get a glimpse of Valyria as it was, but we're not going there now [rather disappointed me] so I think it hardly likely that the long dead builders of the black basalt structures are going to have much of an influence far less an input into the present story.

Its possible we may get them referenced at some point, but if we do then I think that once again it will be as an awful warning about the careless misuse of magic - and how the best way to deal with that is to kill off the magicians

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I would call that dogmatic in the extreme. 

And it's easily contradicted - if we are going to see dragons and flaming sword confronting the Others, then it's quite apparent how a previous cycle of similar activities is quite central and relevant to the plot. I've often asked - if the original Azor AHai and Lightbringer had nothing to do with Westeros, then what relevance does it have to the plot in our current story? Why spend so much time talking about Azor Ahai reborn and dragons and telegraphing Dany coming to Westeros to fight the Others with her dragons... if the original AA never came to Westeros, and no dragonlords came here either, then what does any of that stuff have to do with the main plot, and why would George spend so much time on those ideas? Do you really think all the dragon and Azor Ahai and Lightbringer stuff is some giant red herring?

In his 1993 synopsis, GRRM clearly identified Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki friends as one of the threats facing Westeros. The Others were just a bigger threat. 

[LmL]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In his 1993 synopsis, GRRM clearly identified Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki friends as one of the threats facing Westeros. The Others were just a bigger threat. 

And the series is also titled A Song of Ice and Fire, and I don't think either element is more important than the other. I agree Winterfell is ground zero, certainly, and the Starks are the home team for the reader. But your entire argument that the dragons in Westeros stuff is tangential and will not figure is wrong in my opinion. The Daoist philosophy permeates ASOIAF, and in this context ice and fire are merely a matched pair of opposites which are intrinsically joined to one another, so again I say dragons and others, ice and fire, neither is more important or central than the other. You keep dismissing the signs of ancient dragonlords as not central, but again I say that with history set to repeat itself, the past is relevant to the present. Dragons, dragon people, and dragon weapons (be it dragonglass or dragon-forged V steel) at the Wall - it's pretty clearly a thing. and what was the Last Hero's weapon called again? Dragonsteel, right? 

[Black Crow]

15 minutes ago, LmL said:

And the series is also titled A Song of Ice and Fire, and I don't think either element is more important than the other. I agree Winterfell is ground zero, certainly, and the Starks are the home team for the reader. But your entire argument that the dragons in Westeros stuff is tangential and will not figure is wrong in my opinion. 

Not what I'm arguing at all - my view is that the dragons do not exist to save Westeros from the Others.

As the old heretic joke goes, it aint a matter of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but rather of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons.

[LmL]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Not what I'm arguing at all - my view is that the dragons do not exist to save Westeros from the Others.

As the old heretic joke goes, it aint a matter of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but rather of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons.

I don't have any qualms with this perspective - i believe they are both threats, as you say. In accordance with what I just said about ice and fire as a type of Yin and Yang pair,  I don't see either one as inherently superior, and I would see them both as cancelling out each other. So you could say that they will each save us from each other, if you want.  

However, earlier you did say that these ancient dragon connections to Westeros are tangential and just a fun thing that George put in the world book - not something that's relevant to the endgame. And what I am saying is that you're completely missing the point of the theory about the Dawn Age Dragon Lords. The entire point is that the past and the present mirror each other, and that dragon people coming to the Wall and Northern Westeros is a critical and important part of the end game. There is a reason Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are associated with dragons and dragon weapons. There is something very important about Dragon people coming to Westeros, and we can debate about what that is (I'm not set on it being purely a matter of all the dragons are here to defeat the others and save the day by any means). I would actually expect it to be a bit more complex than that. 

Also, I'd like to point out that the notion of dragonlords coming to Dawn Age Westeros has been suggested long before The World of Ice and Fire. House Dayne's tendency to manifest Valyrian hair and eyes from time to time, together with their extremely anachronistic magic sword, has always been a clue about Dragon people having been in ancient Westeros. @Ran guessed years ago that there must be some common ancestor of both Valyria and House Dayne, and that was before we got all the new info in TWOIAF.

[ravenous reader]

Calm down everyone.  Here is a nice photo entitled 'Volcano Magic':

As you can see, ice and fire; earth, water and sky; meteor and volcano all co-exist!

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Though...there is the open mystery of Quaithe, who specifically identifies herself as "of the Shadow" (rather than "of Asshai"), who seems to know more about Dany and the dragons than she's letting on.

Her identification as 'of the shadow' is curious since she also directs directs Dany to pass beneath the shadow and touch the light.  In this case, I believe she is referring to the shadow beneath the Mother of Mountains at Vaes Dothrak.  I think this is also consistent with Dany's vision in the HoU of the line of crones rising from the womb of the world and kneeling before her.  We see something similar in Jaime's weirwood stump dream when he sees Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey and line of shadow ancestors going back to Lann the Clever. 

It's very suggestive that Dany's ancestry goes a long way back and is connected to the Dothraki possibly pegging Dany as the original mother of mountains.     

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Also, I'd like to point out that the notion of dragonlords coming to Dawn Age Westeros has been suggested long before The World of Ice and Fire. House Dayne's tendency to manifest Valyrian hair and eyes from time to time, together with their extremely anachronistic magic sword, has always been a clue about Dragon people having been in ancient Westeros. @Ran guessed years ago that there must be some common ancestor of both Valyria and House Dayne, and that was before we got all the new info in TWOIAF.

I think it's the use of magic that creates the problem and imbalance between ice and fire.  Moqorro gives a pretty good description of the consequences and he places the blame on fire mages and magic users:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII
"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.
 

Competing with the gods has dire consequences for puny humans.  The Wall is another magical construct meant to check godly powers and the balance is precarious depending as it does on the consumption of the life force.

Mel gives another example of the consequences of drawing too much on the wellspring:

Quote

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

 

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer. When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony with his arrows. Whilst Stannis had seethed at the defiance, she had shuddered with relief.

Dany's is also admonished by Quaithe to remember the Undying.   The splendor or wizards who also draw on the wellspring for their own purposes and who tried to capture her and drain her lifeforce.

 

[Black Crow]

Its also worth noting, if we return for a moment to the infamous 1993 synopsis and its sequel that when faced by the threat of the Others, young Danaerys the Dragonlord doesn't simply unleash the hounds, sorry dragons, but instead needs to unite the shattered kingdom. Whatever part the dragons may or may not play in the outcome, it is humans who are going to sort out the mess.

[Brad Stark]

Back to the horn.  I know it isn't Winterfell, but I've been waiting to see it discussed.   Do we think the horn has a dual purpose?  I.e. it wakes giants and tears down the wall?  Or does it do 1 thing?  E.g. summon giants strong enough they can tear down the wall?

Is the horn newer than the wall?  We know Journamum used the horn and he fought the Night's King, are these related?  Could the horn have been used to build the wall?  That makes sense that what built it has the power to unbuild it.

What sort of giants does it wake?  This can’t be meant literally, as there are far less magical ways to wake giants, e.g. pour a bucket of cold water on them.

[Black Crow]

Slight digression, we're a little over halfway through this thread, so I'll give you a choice for the next one:

[1] Sly Wren's essay on the Underworld - focussing on the Winterfell crypts

[2] Timelines and dating

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Slight digression, we're a little over halfway through this thread, so I'll give you a choice for the next one:

[1] Sly Wren's essay on the Underworld - focussing on the Winterfell crypts

[2] Timelines and dating

I'm for #1 next up since it extends the current discussion and may provide further input on the timelines.

[Melifeather]

I agree #1 since it's an expansion on Winterfell.

As for the horn... @snowfyre had a compelling theory about horns and during the subsequent discussion it was suggested that the sleepers are the wargs/skinchangers that don't know they can skinchange. Think about how the Starks have wolf-dreams. Their third eye flutters open when they sleep and it's in this state that they skinchange into their wolves, but maybe by blowing the horn that wakes the sleepers, their ability wakes up?

[LmL]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it's the use of magic that creates the problem and imbalance between ice and fire.  Moqorro gives a pretty good description of the consequences and he places the blame on fire mages and magic users:

Competing with the gods has dire consequences for puny humans.  The Wall is another magical construct meant to check godly powers and the balance is precarious depending as it does on the consumption of the life force.

Mel gives another example of the consequences of drawing too much on the wellspring:

Dany's is also admonished by Quaithe to remember the Undying.   The splendor or wizards who also draw on the wellspring for their own purposes and who tried to capture her and drain her lifeforce.

 

Yep, all true imo. Stealing the fire of the Gods comes with a heavy price, no doubt. Personally I think Martin is more interested in writing about the costs of magic that magic itself. 

34 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its also worth noting, if we return for a moment to the infamous 1993 synopsis and its sequel that when faced by the threat of the Others, young Danaerys the Dragonlord doesn't simply unleash the hounds, sorry dragons, but instead needs to unite the shattered kingdom. Whatever part the dragons may or may not play in the outcome, it is humans who are going to sort out the mess.

No arguments here. The characters always come first. And several of those characters will be dragon people One of them might even be part dragon, part skinchanger. That's what is at the heart of dragon people in Westeros, imo, the mixing of greenseer magic and the blood of the dragon. In my opinion, both legacies / magical bloodlines will be important for Jon to possess, and strictly for magical reasons, not those of inheritance. The new King of Winter will be a dragon person, and that again will be history repeating itself. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Calm down everyone.  Here is a nice photo entitled 'Volcano Magic':

As you can see, ice and fire; earth, water and sky; meteor and volcano all co-exist!

That's totally bitchin RR! I scoured the Internet for pics of comets alongside an eclipse a outdoor and found couple good ones, but this is way cool. Sea dragons and sky dragons, happy together.

[Black Crow]

27 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree #1 since it's an expansion on Winterfell.

As for the horn... @snowfyre had a compelling theory about horns and during the subsequent discussion it was suggested that the sleepers are the wargs/skinchangers that don't know they can skinchange. Think about how the Starks have wolf-dreams. Their third eye flutters open when they sleep and it's in this state that they skinchange into their wolves, but maybe by blowing the horn that wakes the sleepers, their ability wakes up?

Oh I like that one, but I'm also mindful [given GRRM's own background] of the last trump awaking the dead on Judgement Day - or perhaps in this case bringing the old Kings of Winter stumbling from their tombs...

[ravenous reader]

45 minutes ago, LmL said:

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

'Volcano Magic':

As you can see, ice and fire; earth, water and sky; meteor and volcano all co-exist!

That's totally bitchin RR! I scoured the Internet for pics of comets alongside an eclipse a outdoor and found couple good ones, but this is way cool. Sea dragons and sky dragons, happy together.

Isn't it lovely?   Yes, it's like the photo of the mismatched yet synchronized lion-cousins drinking together reflected in the rippling water I posted on your thread to wish Blue Tiger happy new year.

53 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree #1 since it's an expansion on Winterfell.

As for the horn... @snowfyre had a compelling theory about horns and during the subsequent discussion it was suggested that the sleepers are the wargs/skinchangers that don't know they can skinchange. Think about how the Starks have wolf-dreams. Their third eye flutters open when they sleep and it's in this state that they skinchange into their wolves, but maybe by blowing the horn that wakes the sleepers, their ability wakes up?

At its most basic level, ASOIAF is a coming-of-age 'Bildungsroman' detailing Campbell's 'hero's journey' for a number of characters.

Quote

Duke Leto Atreides:
I'll miss the sea, but a person needs new experiences. They jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.

--from Dune, Frank Herbert

In that novel/movie too, the hero learns to kill with a word.  Words have power.  The horn that wakes the sleepers is a word.  It's the song of the earth of which I've been speaking -- you know the song Brandon the Builder, and now our Bran, is learning...It's like singing at the right frequency in order to resonate with, and crack a glass.

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Calm down everyone.  Here is a nice photo entitled 'Volcano Magic':

This is phenomenal...and lends credence to a little theory I've been constructing re: twin volcanoes.   Thank you for this!

[ravenous reader]

29 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

This is phenomenal...and lends credence to a little theory I've been constructing re: twin volcanoes.   Thank you for this!

I told you your theory did not sound far-fetched!    You know I have a good 'nose' for theories -- I can sense a viable one the way Jon can smell 'red':

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

He shut the door and pulled the bell cord. The winch began to turn. They rose. The day was bright and the Wall was weeping, long fingers of water trickling down its face and glinting in the sun. In the close confines of the iron cage, he was acutely aware of the red woman's presence. She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken's forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. Kissed by fire, he thought, remembering Ygritte. The wind got in amongst Melisandre's long red robes and sent them flapping against Jon's legs as he stood beside her.