Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

here it is. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm gonna have to come back to all this tomorrow as I have to get on with boring life stuff. But so much interesting stuff. I'd like to see that spreadsheet. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Seams is the brilliant mind who took the time to really explain how and why Truth could be in Dorne to me.   I hope she will reply to us with her research findings because this is a free for all where reiteration is encouraged. 

I honestly couldn't remember where or when we had that conversation, or why CF was giving credit to me. So I searched the old posts and refreshed my memory. It sounds as if the gist of it was that the sword Truth began with the Rogare family. The Rogares married into both the Targaryan and Martell royal families. (Larra Rogare was the mother of Aegon IV, and her brother had the sword.) The sword might have been lost in an uprising in Lys, or it might have gone to one of these Westeros families related by marriage. (More detail here.)

Further clues, including the lyrics to the song The Dornishman's Wife, and a remark by Cersei [ "There must be some good swords in Dorne." (Feast, Cersei V) ] led me to suspect that there was something hiding in Dorne, and that it could be a sword. And then CF made an interesting connection that added Sarella / Alleras, one of the sand snakes, to the list of people who might use a VS sword.

So there are some Dornish hints and possibly even a trail to follow. I don't know that this is brilliant, but it's a dialogue about possibilities, and that's what makes this forum fun.

 

[hiemal]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Nicely done, Ser, thank you!  Let me ask 1 more question, if I may.  The Others' blades a potential alloy or water and air, or as you say, duh--ice...We would need to establish our Air elementals wouldn't we?  I understand how dragons relate directly to fire, but why wouldn't dragons and comets for that matter, represent air?  

Traditional dragons, because of their wings, have an obvious tie to air but GRRM has also provided us with sea dragons and firewyrms. I have speculated elsewhere that Quaithe's pronouncement that dragons are fire made flesh may be far more literal than most accept- that they may in fact represent a volcanic event transformed magically in the moment of eruption so that airborne lava becomes dragons while that remaining beneath the earth emerges as firewyrms or sea dragons depending whether or not they were submarine as well as subterranean.

[Curled Finger]

40 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm gonna have to come back to all this tomorrow as I have to get on with boring life stuff. But so much interesting stuff. I'd like to see that spreadsheet. 

Looking forward to continuing the discussion.  Get this for sad and lame...there is a spread sheet containing all the things I know about the swords with a 2nd page containing potential heroes AND a timeline.   I can't figure out how to post any of it.  I almost got the timeline copied in with the OP but it lost all its formatting and became illegible.  Dammit.  

[Curled Finger]

35 minutes ago, Seams said:

I honestly couldn't remember where or when we had that conversation, or why CF was giving credit to me. So I searched the old posts and refreshed my memory. It sounds as if the gist of it was that the sword Truth began with the Rogare family. The Rogares married into both the Targaryan and Martell royal families. (Larra Rogare was the mother of Aegon IV, and her brother had the sword.) The sword might have been lost in an uprising in Lys, or it might have gone to one of these Westeros families related by marriage. (More detail here.)

Further clues, including the lyrics to the song The Dornishman's Wife, and a remark by Cersei [ "There must be some good swords in Dorne." (Feast, Cersei V) ] led me to suspect that there was something hiding in Dorne, and that it could be a sword. And then CF made an interesting connection that added Sarella / Alleras, one of the sand snakes, to the list of people who might use a VS sword.

So there are some Dornish hints and possibly even a trail to follow. I don't know that this is brilliant, but it's a dialogue about possibilities, and that's what makes this forum fun.

 

Thank you kindly, Lady.  You've obviously come up with so much good stuff you have lost track of it...

[Coolbeard the Exile]

19 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

There's a theory that Daenerys will have Dragon use dragon fire to break apart the Iron Throne and that the swords comprising it are either Valerian steel or Dragon steel if those end up being two different things, and that these 1,000 swords will be instrumental in the battle against the Others.

Another theory and one I subscribe to is that Dawn is Lightbringer, the sword of Azor Ahai, and that Jon Snow will be the next Sword of the Morning.

The first theory is not possible because if that is the case Danerys would have infinete valyrian swords.

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Traditional dragons, because of their wings, have an obvious tie to air but GRRM has also provided us with sea dragons and firewyrms. I have speculated elsewhere that Quaithe's pronouncement that dragons are fire made flesh may be far more literal than most accept- that they may in fact represent a volcanic event transformed magically in the moment of eruption so that airborne lava becomes dragons while that remaining beneath the earth emerges as firewyrms or sea dragons depending whether or not they were submarine as well as subterranean.

Fair enough.  So we need our detectives to get on with the search for Air elemental representatives in Westeros.  That's a cool description of the fire made flesh concept.  

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The first theory is not possible because if that is the case Danerys would have infinete valyrian swords.

On the other hand Dany has a massive army that could actually man all those swords.   However, I agree that so many swords would lessen the importance of our existing swords.   It would take the better part of a novel to name all the new swords anyway!  I think it may easily come down to how many Others there actually are.   

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Head is killing me again today, so I've had to skip a bunch. I hope I'll be able to catch up on all of it soon though. In the mean time I wanted to make a couple of points.

Dragonbone is absolutely NOT an ingredient in Valyrian Steel. GRRM said so, and I was a little disappointed to find that out because I'm certain that Tyrion reading bit has to mean something. Thus I came up with Dragonbone = Dragonsteel instead. On that note, can't remember which of my worthy fellow-posters was thinking on this issue but you made great points about the Valyrians possibly improving on dragonsteel or perhaps trying to create a weapon as potent that didn't require them to sacrifice their own dragons (without whom they'd go back to being shepherds). The volcanic origin of obsidian combined with the fire made flesh aspect, and the belief that somehow the dragons of Valyria were tied to their Fourteen Flames (or was it Fires?), all goes well together. Add in that you would have to fight ice with fire, and we've got a pretty cool and layered system, if DB=DS.

I think Widow's Wail would be a good sword for Dany. It's shorter and lighter than most, she's a widow, and the wailing involved would be the exact opposite of what Joffrey had in mind when he chose the name. I love the idea of things being turned on their heads, as GRRM does sometimes anyway.

There is no specific reason to believe that the Iron Throne is loaded with Valyrian Steel. Some yes, but not lots of them. The families with the most money at the time of the Conquest were the ones most likely to have VS sword. That would be the Lannisters (lost in Valyria) the Starks (still had it in AGoT), the Hightowers, and a few select others.VS did not come cheap. Only the rich could afford heavy weaponry made from it. Most of the swords Aegon I collected would have been plain old steel.

As to 15 swords...well if VS does indeed kill Others, they will need all they can get. Let's say we've got 7 or even 13 heroes going to take out the Others or their source. What about the people left behind? They need Other-killing weapons too. Once the wight infantry is taken down, they'll be fighting actual Others and they need to be able to kill them. This is where Dragonbone/Dragonsteel could come in very handy, but it would be nice to have a few VS sword too. Another option would be to take the "extra" VS sword and melt them down into smaller weapons so that there are more of them. The risk on that being that you have to get inside a certain range of the Other without being killed before you can kill them. It would, however, leave the number of hero swords limited.

Jon claiming Dawn through the milkbrother connection is a non-starter. For one thing there's no precedent. For another he'd have a better chance if he was nursed by a lady of House Dayne, not one of their servants. Art+L=J is a better case, though still not as strong as R+L=J.

Anybody here familiar with the suggestion that Darkstar's entire existence is due to the abandoning of the five-year gap meaning Edric would be too young/small to wield Dawn?

Got my own little crackpots on Darkstar but I must say I've always found the idea that he was Arthur's squire and present at ToJ to be a very good and likely idea. My own main idea goes like this: Darkstar is the legitimate son of a lady of House Dayne and Oberyn Martell, from a secret marriage. He has the widow's peak. He says he was weaned on venom. We have been given zero info on his parents other than Ran saying he's "nobody's bastard." With or without knowledge from the ToJ, a son of Oberyn Martell, particularly a legitimate one, could definitely be the most dangerous man in Dorne. The lesser-crackpot has nothing to do with his parentage and instead states that someone else tried to kill Myrcella, and Darkstar intercepted a poisoned blade with his own, cutting off her ear but saving her life. Him knowing who the real assassin was would make him very, very dangerous.

This isn't a theory but I wondered...if Beric can set a regular steel sword alight with his blood and not damage it (if I'm remembering correctly, and I may not be) what about the "red sword of heroes" being one made of bronze and magic and set alight in the same way? Bronze with blood on it would likely glow red when lit. Bronze was well-known to the First Men. Brozne Yohn Royce still has a set of bronze armor with runes on it. Who did the runes? Had to be either the CotF or First Men who had been taught their magic (Crannogmen or Last Hero maybe). Does anyone know of any bronze swords till in existence?

And what about Lightbringer being beneath Winterfell somewhere? In Lyanna's tomb or even deeper in the crypts. Or perhaps original Ice really was TGO's sword, is hidden in the crypts and he wants it back--the magic keeping it away depending on blood magic a la "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Of course if the Battle for the Dawn ended with a treaty, Starks maintaining control of Winterfell could have been part of that, because at that point no one would have thought they'd be taken down the way they were 8,000 years later. If any aspect of the is violated, the Others can attack. Perhaps they have someone on their side who foresaw the downfall of House Stark and told them to start moving south in advance? (please not Bloodraven, I want him to be a good guy and unsung hero of Westeros)

ETA: wow that got long! Also...purely for wordplay purposes: if any current VS sword is Lightbringer, I vote Heartsbane. Azor Ahai thrust LB into his wife's heart. Add to that House Tarly (a First Men house) having the worlds "First in Battle" and you've got a neat little puzzle all solved.

[hiemal]

44 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Fair enough.  So we need our detectives to get on with the search for Air elemental representatives in Westeros.  That's a cool description of the fire made flesh concept.  

Aside from the winged men and the aeromancers of Asshai the best lead I have is links to the Storm God (air and sea) and thus to the Stormlands, to Durran Godsgrief, to Patchface, and to Euron.

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Dragonbone is absolutely NOT an ingredient in Valyrian Steel. GRRM said so, and I was a little disappointed to find that out because I'm certain that Tyrion reading bit has to mean something. Thus I came up with Dragonbone = Dragonsteel instead. On that note, can't remember which of my worthy fellow-posters was thinking on this issue but you made great points about the Valyrians possibly improving on dragonsteel or perhaps trying to create a weapon as potent that didn't require them to sacrifice their own dragons (without whom they'd go back to being shepherds).

As to 15 swords...well if VS does indeed kill Others, they will need all they can get. Let's say we've got 7 or even 13 heroes going to take out the Others or their source. What about the people left behind? They need Other-killing weapons too. Once the wight infantry is taken down, they'll be fighting actual Others and they need to be able to kill them. This is where Dragonbone/Dragonsteel could come in very handy, but it would be nice to have a few VS sword too.

Jon claiming Dawn through the milkbrother connection is a non-starter.

Anybody here familiar with the suggestion that Darkstar's entire existence is due to the abandoning of the five-year gap meaning Edric would be too young/small to wield Dawn?

Got my own little crackpots on Darkstar but I must say I've always found the idea that he was Arthur's squire and present at ToJ to be a very good and likely idea. My own main idea goes like this: Darkstar is the legitimate son of a lady of House Dayne and Oberyn Martell, from a secret marriage. He has the widow's peak. He says he was weaned on venom. We have been given zero info on his parents other than Ran saying he's "nobody's bastard." With or without knowledge from the ToJ, a son of Oberyn Martell, particularly a legitimate one, could definitely be the most dangerous man in Dorne. The lesser-crackpot has nothing to do with his parentage and instead states that someone else tried to kill Myrcella, and Darkstar intercepted a poisoned blade with his own, cutting off her ear but saving her life. Him knowing who the real assassin was would make him very, very dangerous.

This isn't a theory but I wondered...if Beric can set a regular steel sword alight with his blood and not damage it (if I'm remembering correctly, and I may not be) what about the "red sword of heroes" being one made of bronze and magic and set alight in the same way? Bronze with blood on it would likely glow red when lit. Bronze was well-known to the First Men. Brozne Yohn Royce still has a set of bronze armor with runes on it. Who did the runes? Had to be either the CotF or First Men who had been taught their magic (Crannogmen or Last Hero maybe). Does anyone know of any bronze swords till in existence?

And what about Lightbringer being beneath Winterfell somewhere? In Lyanna's tomb or even deeper in the crypts. Or perhaps original Ice really was TGO's sword, is hidden in the crypts and he wants it back--the magic keeping it away depending on blood magic a la "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Of course if the Battle for the Dawn ended with a treaty, Starks maintaining control of Winterfell could have been part of that, because at that point no one would have thought they'd be taken down the way they were 8,000 years later. If any aspect of the is violated, the Others can attack. Perhaps they have someone on their side who foresaw the downfall of House Stark and told them to start moving south in advance? (please not Bloodraven, I want him to be a good guy and unsung hero of Westeros)

Lousy about your headache.  I hope it passes soon.   I can't concentrate with a headache so my hat is off to you.   I will admit that prior to your 1st post in here about the dragon bone I hadn't considered that it might be dragon steel.   I only understood that DS did not equal VS.  As you lay it out, this is exactly where we should be thinking about dragon steel.  A lost historical recipe recaptured, maybe improved upon, in more recent history.   I'm not a huge fan of the additional VS idea.  I am content with 12 Others and TGO as the ultimate big bad.   Admittedly that fits my head canon about the 12 + 1 and my ability to see beyond it may be clouded.  In defense of my thinking, why only have a limited number of swords so prominent in the story if more are required?  

I have honestly never seen the milk brother tie in and have to give it credit just for the fun of it.  Of course your arguments against are spot on, but the audacity of the idea alone was enough to make me actually laugh out loud to myself.   And yes, I believe the Gerold Dayne intro was some sort of work around to the 5 year gap.  My favorite part about this story here in the forum is how utterly differently we all interpret things.  I've thought from the beginning that Darkstar pulled the thrust with Myrcella and that he was being set up by Prince Doran.   I wish Tyene was the one going hunting for Daynes with Hotah.   She at least seemed to understand there is a set up.   This character strikes me differently each time I reread, but that was my original take on him.   I think it's safe to predict he will do something.   I did get to go read @The Weirwoods Eyes theory as previously linked and enjoyed the premise.  

As to bronze swords, yes, there are a few still around.  I don't have a specific example but will cite the Thenns being specifically mentioned to have maintained the skill in their exile in the far North.   This leads to a whole other weird train of thought I will leave for another discussion.  However, you bring up Beric's ability to light a sword with his blood and this is too important a detail to omit from a sword discussion.  I'm not a symbolism guy in the least but I do believe this is huge in establishing our real Lightbringer.  Is it literally magical blood hot enough to light a sword or symbolic of blood powerful enough to engage a magic component of a magic sword?  

Team Bloodraven Rules!  

[Curled Finger]

13 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Aside from the winged men and the aeromancers of Asshai the best lead I have is links to the Storm God (air and sea) and thus to the Stormlands, to Durran Godsgrief, to Patchface, and to Euron.

I get everyone up to Patchface and Euron here.   Care to elaborate on those 2 at all? 

[Leo of House Cartel]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

 

I enjoyed your theory very much Weirwood Eyes, easily the most enjoyable theory I've read so far relating to Darkstars origin. The idea of him being a squire at the TOJ blew my mind! 

High Hermitige in iself has always interested me. As far as I'm aware the home of Darkstar isn't mentioned untill AFFC, I wonder how old the castle is? We have no mention of the lands being burned during the Dragons Wroth or attacked by Nymerias forces, which makes me think the castle must be fairly recent.

I wonder, could High Hermitige have been built upon the ruins of The Tower of Joy?

According to the wiki, the Tower of Joy sits in the northern Red Mountains, along the Princes pass, while High Hermitage is more to the southwest. Has this ever been confirmed?  The name "High Hermitage" signifies a long wait, someone looking down and standing vigil alone. Well we have a certain Valyrian sword with similiar meaning: Vigilance, the sword of House Hightower, a house often linked to the Daynes.

 Darkstars given name of Gerold also fits nicely hear. Perhaps the castle of High Hermitage, much like Gerold himself is named for the Lord Commander who died alongside Ser Arthur. The White Bull and The Sword of The Morning were also presumeably standing vigil at the TOJ for a fair amount of time before the day the died. 

Your musings regarding Darkstars opinion on Arthurs combat prowess are very well thought out and certainly got me thinking. I think it's fair to assume Gerold has the ambition of surpassing his uncles skill in arms. The "He had a great sword" remark could be taken as Gerold being arrogant, but could also be a true indicaton of the mans skill at arms. Would a man described as "The most Dangerous In Dorne" make such a remark if he didn't feel his own technique was strong?  Thus, if High Hermitage is indeed Gerolds castle, he could be looked upon as taking his own hermitage, training like a madman while he prepares to not only surpass his uncle, but also earn his fathers familys respect and perhaps right some of the wrong of the TOJ.

In regards to Nightfall perhaps falling into the hand of "He of The Night", It would certainly fit perfectly. I wonder then, who exactly was the corsair that Dalton Greyjoy took Nightfall from? and where did he get the blade?

We hear several examples of member of house Dayne being a "Sword of the Evening". Could Nightfall perhaps be another Dayne family sword? While it seems rather obvious, I have to mention that Dawn signifies the begining of Day while Nightfall suggests the start of night. The moonstone pommell is interesting, and could be viewed as an opposite to the star emblazoned on the House Dayne coat of arms.  Perhaps if a member of House Dayne wasn't considered honourable enough to weild Dawn then they would have been given Nightfall.

I imagine the Kings of The Torrentine could have afforded to have the blade to be commissioned in Valyria, and as a family which shares certain physical traits with "The Blood of The Dragon" I could see the Daynes being more warmly accepted by Valyrians.

Now one would think that if House Dayne had an additional "magic sword", it would be more of a talking point, and definatelt make the history books, but how about if the sword was lost long ago, as the Rhoynar began to flood Westeros.

 I've often wondered about Vorian Daynes time in The Nights Watch. A former king of a sun scorched area, serving in the Black Brotherhood, refered to as "Sword of The Evening", it all seems to point to something but I'm not sure what. We know Queen Nymerias third husband was one Davos Dayne, The Sword of The Morning, so this could suggest that Vorian didn't take Dawn to the Wall with him. Castle Black wouldn't exactly be a safe place for a VS sword, so if he took Nightfall with him, perhaps the blade was lost or stolen in the north, only to end up in the hands of The Red Krakens Corsair.

Another possibility is that House Tarth were the initial owner of the current sword of House Harlaw. Even Star is evening star after all, so the name would make sence. There is that moonstone pommell aswell, moons are featured prominently on Tarths banner.

If we scrutinise the "Fall" aspect of the Nightfall name, it could also symbolise the end of night, wouldn't it be something if Lightbringer was infact currently being weilded by an Ironborn serving under that black pirate Euron?

 

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

Hmm, quote is screwed up again.  That was some nice connecting, Leo...

[Cridefea]

21 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

I read an article about Damascus steel and it said texts from the time when they were common referred to a "magical" quench in "dragons blood". The quench is when they rapidly cool the hot steel after it's been shaped. And some other texts mentioned that to make the strongest Damascus steel you had to use it to kill a strong slave with the blade after it was made. As I was reading it I could just imagine GRRM researching it and finding this part of the story had practically written itself. 

I have a theory that to make VS you have to heat the steel up with dragon fire and shape it, then use whatever spells are needed followed by a quench in dragons blood. Maybe the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" have some reference to the method of making VS.

Or Ice and fire?  

On 4/2/2017 at 5:50 PM, Curled Finger said:

In that WW was originally bestowed upon Joffrey, I consider her to be a Baratheon sword. 

I don't think Tywin would agree with you. LoL

On 4/2/2017 at 5:50 PM, Curled Finger said:

What color is Red Rain?

Oh that's a good question. I wonder why GRRM hasn't described it. Didn't he want its origin was too much easy to track down or Will Red Rain have no important role in the story?

 

As for the number of the VS, does we really know the right number? If we can't retrace all the story of the swords it's hard to say it. 

Example: Brightroad is lost since Tommen II sailed to Valyria and never returned, and we know Dalton Greyjoy took Nightfall from a dead corsair, years later. We can't know if they are 2 different blades or the same blade, right? Can pommels be changed?

This is only an example I'm not saying they are the same sword, but I wonder if we can be sure about the number, based on names.

Does my question make any sense? 

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

50 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Or Ice and fire?  

I don't think Tywin would agree with you. LoL

Oh that's a good question. I wonder why GRRM hasn't described it. Didn't he want its origin was too much easy to track down or Will Red Rain have no important role in the story?

 

As for the number of the VS, does we really know the right number? If we can't retrace all the story of the swords it's hard to say it. 

Example: Brightroad is lost since Tommen II sailed to Valyria and never returned, and we know Dalton Greyjoy took Nightfall from a dead corsair, years later. We can't know if they are 2 different blades or the same blade, right? Can pommels be changed?

This is only an example I'm not saying they are the same sword, but I wonder if we can be sure about the number, based on names.

Does my question make any sense? 

 

 

 

Remember WW is the smaller of the excellent swords made.   The Lannister without a sword hand got the longer more appropriate sword. I took that as a decisive slight to Joffrey in that he was given the sword a girl could swing.  Red rain is said to have a distinctive color or something like that.   Color is mentioned, but of course GRRM doesn't seem to want to give up the information.   I hate it when he does that.   As to our Named Valyrian Steel Swords in Westeros...There have been a total of 15 swords, not blades, just swords.   Of those 15, Ice was reforged into WW & OK, Brightroar was lost outside of Westeros and Lamentation was "lost" in the dragon pits.   I take Brightroar and Lamentation's "lost" as gone forever.   Truth is I think Lamentation was melted.  We have 5 missing swords, not "lost" so much as hidden.   They are Blackfyre, Dark Sister, Truth, Orphan-Maker and Vigilance.  Then there are the 7 openly active swords we see in the story in the forms of WW, OK, Longclaw, Red Rain, Nightfall, Heartsbane and Lady Forlorn.   We know very little about Truth and Vigilance, but most folks have an idea about where Blackfyre and/or Dark Sister are.  Remember, we're only concerned with magic swords as noted above and of course, Dawn.  Dawn isn't made of VS--it's something very different.   The VS swords are dark in color (and they are not shiny) whereas Dawn is described as very light, a milk glass white.    There are a bunch of legendary swords, original Ice and Just Maid immediately come to mind, but we don't know what they were constructed of.   

Pommels can certainly be changed as seen in the case of Jeor changing the bear head pommel to a wolf's head pommel to match Jon's Stark totem.   We have descriptions of nearly all the swords.  Brightroar was a greatsword where as Nightfall is only described as a long sword.   The blades are distinctly different in size.  We know Orphan-Maker is a black longsword and that Lady Forlorn and Ice were a more smoky grey in color.  Ice was a greatsword but I can't verify what type of blade Lady Forlorn is.   Lady Forlorn is a little bit different because there are inaccuracies regarding it in the World Book.   For the majority of our swords we can distinguish some from others without question.  So yes I am certain these are each distinct swords.  Did that help at all Cridefea?  

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I get everyone up to Patchface and Euron here.   Care to elaborate on those 2 at all? 

Absolutely! Bear in mind that this is condensed and all spit and tinfoil to boot.

Patchface is, imho, the anti-Ariel and prophet of the Storm God/Merling King, borne out by Shakespeare's The Tempest (Ariel's song, in particular) and Walt Disney's take on Hans' Little Mermaid (Singing: under the Sea!) and a few other tidbits (for example- the nennymoan/anemone as flower that blooms only in the wind to the undersea animal that feeds on what the "winds" under the sea bring them to the merlings themselves who feed on what the storms bring them- sailors and their cargo- although they are rumored not to be above bending those rules by luring sailors with their charms).

Euron is the champion of the Storm (he is the first storm and the last) in the same way that Azor Ahai reborn would be the champion of Fire and I suspect that Bran will become the Champion of Earth. Even more than Lord Borel, who seems a terrestrial merling in his habits and his hands and who diet of shipwrack, I think, and certainly on a grander scale.

Hopefully that made at least a little sense.

Back on the topic of swords, how about Nightfall as the precursor to Dawn? Dawn, Dayne, Starfall, Nightfall, Evenfall Hall. I smell a connection here but its realization eludes me.

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Absolutely! Bear in mind that this is condensed and all spit and tinfoil to boot.

Patchface is, imho, the anti-Ariel and prophet of the Storm God/Merling King, borne out by Shakespeare's The Tempest (Ariel's song, in particular) and Walt Disney's take on Hans' Little Mermaid (Singing: under the Sea!) and a few other tidbits (for example- the nennymoan/anemone as flower that blooms only in the wind to the undersea animal that feeds on what the "winds" under the sea bring them to the merlings themselves who feed on what the storms bring them- sailors and their cargo- although they are rumored not to be above bending those rules by luring sailors with their charms).

Euron is the champion of the Storm (he is the first storm and the last) in the same way that Azor Ahai reborn would be the champion of Fire and I suspect that Bran will become the Champion of Earth. Even more than Lord Borel, who seems a terrestrial merling in his habits and his hands and who diet of shipwrack, I think, and certainly on a grander scale.

Hopefully that made at least a little sense.

Back on the topic of swords, how about Nightfall as the precursor to Dawn? Dawn, Dayne, Starfall, Nightfall, Evenfall Hall. I smell a connection here but its realization eludes me.

Ah!  Very good and now it makes sense.   Thanks very much for elaborating for those of us who struggle with symbolism!  I think you are on the right track with an association between Nightfall and Dawn.  However, my conscience is nagging me to remind you that Dawn is at least 2000 years old, which could fit your scenario, but may be as old as 10,000 years old, which would not.   I suggest a read of the past 2 pages for some very nice correlations between Nightfall and Dawn.  You are in some excellent company with that line of thinking.  

Wonder if I will ever be able to hear Roy Dotrice sing Patchface for me without picturing the Little Mermaid hence forth?   

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah!  Very good and now it makes sense.   Thanks very much for elaborating for those of us who struggle with symbolism!  I think you are on the right track with an association between Nightfall and Dawn.  However, my conscience is nagging me to remind you that Dawn is at least 2000 years old, which could fit your scenario, but may be as old as 10,000 years old, which would not.   I suggest a read of the past 2 pages for some very nice correlations between Nightfall and Dawn.  You are in some excellent company with that line of thinking.  

Wonder if I will ever be able to hear Roy Dotrice sing Patchface for me without picturing the Little Mermaid hence forth?   

I'm almost sure that Nightfall is linked with the island of Tarth, fairly sure that there is at a tie between the blade and House Tarth, and I have a hunch that it is also tied House Dayne if I might break it down. The rest is nebulous at best. I wandered down this track trying to reconcile the name with the fact that when Brienne speaks of a potent blade she speaks of the Just Maid, not of a lost family heirloom. My tinfoils include, among other possibilities, House Tarth splitting from House Dayne at some point in the remote past and vice versa so Nightfall could as easily be a response to Dawn as a precursor.

I haven't had the pleasure of listening to his version of Patchface. But the crabs PF mentions serving starfish soup and the army of ...crabs and mermaids I think? It's late... he sings should accompany him as he marches to Hardhome all sound an awful lot some of those big musical numbers. So... probably not.

Muahahahahaha!