Did Walder Frey even have a choice?

[devilish]

Walder sided against his son’s father in law by siding with Robb and against the crown. Such action caused the Lannisters the costliest defeat throughout the war. They were defeated in battle, Edmure was snatched away from them and Jamie was captured only to be returned without his sword’s hand. Such victory also paved the way for Robb to cross the point of no return by putting a crown over his head.  A rebellious Warden could be made to bend the knee, providing he offered the right reassurances (hostages etc). A rebellious king had to die especially since he ruled such a big and difficult region to conquer.

Irrespective whether Robb decided to take on the Lannister-Tyrell force or act wisely and find a way to return North and fight another day, the Riverlands was lost. No one was in a position to defend it anymore and the most vindictive man in Westeros was set to snatch full control over this land. If Robb did manage to return North in one piece then that would infuriate the old lion even further. Lannister men had never fought so far North and that expedition will be costly both in terms of funds and men. That would push the crown deeper into Tyrell pockets. Guess who would be at the receiving end of Tywin’s fury? The man who was bound by marriage to stop this from happening but instead put personal glory first. 

Walder's actions were despicable. However I don't believe he really had a choice but to obey Tywin. 

[The Wolves]

Everybody has a choice, the choices may be a type of "pick your poison" type of choice but it's still a choice. 

And Tywin is not so stupid to attack and punish to harshly the most powerful Riverland House and his kinsmen. Plus the westernmen also attacked the Freys and they fought back way before they allied with Robb. 

Frey was not stuck in a rock and a hard place the idea that he HAD to do the RW is just an excuse for such a taboo, unnecessary, evil, inhumane act. 

[Praetor Xyn]

Of course he had a choice. You're also forgetting that if Edmure did as he was told, Tywin would have been in the Westerlands in Robb's trap so there would have been no Tywin to save them at the Battle of Blackwater and possibly no Lannister-Tyrell alliance period, though there likely would have been anyway because Stannis wouldn't marry Margaery I don't see them making that alliance without Tywin present.

[Boarsbane]

Tywin was lenient towards every other house that rebelled against the throne, if Walder surrenders when Tywin's armies march into the Riverlands, I doubt he'd be punished, Genna's husband is a Frey and so are his nephews, it's against the interest of his House to see them weakend. So yes Walder had a choice.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Of course he had a choice. You're also forgetting that if Edmure did as he was told, Tywin would have been in the Westerlands in Robb's trap so there would have been no Tywin to save them at the Battle of Blackwater and possibly no Lannister-Tyrell alliance period, though there likely would have been anyway because Stannis wouldn't marry Margaery I don't see them making that alliance without Tywin present.

That has nothing to do with what I said

[devilish]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Everybody has a choice, the choices may be a type of "pick your poison" type of choice but it's still a choice. 

And Tywin is not so stupid to attack and punish to harshly the most powerful Riverland House and his kinsmen. Plus the westernmen also attacked the Freys and they fought back way before they allied with Robb. 

Frey was not stuck in a rock and a hard place the idea that he HAD to do the RW is just an excuse for such a taboo, unnecessary, evil, inhumane act. 

He showed no mercy to House Reyne and House Tarbeck who were richer and more respected then the Freys. Tywin went tough against them despite the fact that neither  houses were married to a Lannister (hence obliged to take family side) or costed Jamie's sword hand

I believe that Tywin would have probably forced Walder to exile (or worse), alongside with Black Walder and most of his offspring. Emmon would inherit the twins with his sons (who were probably raised to be more Lannister then Freys) to inherit the twins. 

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, devilish said:

He showed no mercy to House Reyne and House Tarbeck who were richer and more respected then the Freys. Tywin went tough against them despite the fact that neither  houses were married to a Lannister (hence obliged to take family side) or costed Jamie's sword hand

I believe that Tywin would have probably forced Walder to exile (or worse), alongside with Black Walder and most of his offspring. Emmon would inherit the twins with his sons (who were probably raised to be more Lannister then Freys) to inherit the twins. 

Those were his own bannermen, not the same situation.

[devilish]

35 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Tywin was lenient towards every other house that rebelled against the throne, if Walder surrenders when Tywin's armies march into the Riverlands, I doubt he'd be punished, Genna's husband is a Frey and so are his nephews, it's against the interest of his House to see them weakend. So yes Walder had a choice.

None of them were associated to the Lannisters. Walder was. His son was married to Tywin's sister. Emmon lived in CR, enjoying the benefits of being associated to the Lannisters. The Freys were expected to do their part in the Lannister's time of need.

[devilish]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Those were his own bannermen, not the same situation.

Actually its worse. The Freys were lucky to be married to Tywin's sister Genna. Emmon and his family lived off on the Lannister wealth because of it. For the first time in decades, the Lannisters needed the Freys to pay their debt only to be backstabbed by them in their time of need. The result of that was devastating. The Lannisters were defeated, Jamie was captured and ended up losing his sword hand and Edmure was released by the young wolf. Robb's reputation following that victory grew to a ridiculous extent and most bannermen in the Riverlands and the North bent the knee to him and declared him king in the North. Unless Walder did something drastic to appease the lion then rest assured that Tywin would have made them pay

[Cas Stark]

The Freys are rich.  The Twins is an easy to defend castle.  They have a history of doing what they want, regardless of what the king or their liege lord does...so, I don't buy that they "had" to do anything, let alone the Red Weddding to appease Tywin.  

[Protagoras]

Of course they had - they had in fact many choices.

They could have sent a raven to King´s landing to negotiate their surrender and loyalty to the crown. The Stormlords got it after Blackwater. The Riverlords after red wedding. And that was after they were defeated and captured. Walder Frey is neither and should have enough to offer to work it out. I find it extremely unlikely that the Lannisters wouldn´t accept. In fact, if I were Tywin, I would jump on such an option. Then the Freys can gather at the Twins in full strength, refusing to let Robb pass north, flying Joffreys banner and shoot whatever projectiles they can when Robb is forced to assult and storm, when of couse a large army led by Tarly have been force marching to take them in the rear. And if they try to avoid your territory you can attack them and/or harrass their flank. This is what I consider the proper reaction to the lack of northern honor - a justified war. 

They could have honest with their position and tried a diplomatic  war - that due to The Norths treachery (yes, a very important case that should be made is that this is not something Robb is individually responsible for, but something the entire north can be blamed for) there exists a state of war between the Twins and the North and that House Frey has been horribly treated by a false king who´s word is not worth anything and lacks justice to be a proper king in the first place. Do alot of PR in the region making fellow riverlords shun the northerners for their treacherous ways and (especially if the North attack the twins later) use that as an argument that the north are nothing but savages who has no dignity and humanity in them whatsoever and are born of lies. Not only do their word have no value, but they then attack the people they have offended in order to silence the truth about what has happened. Maybe send out some bards to spread this story over the entire realm as much as possible.

They could have demanded harsh reparations and accept Robbs counter-offer but with some added weight. In general, far, far more forcing Robb to beg apology, adding some large piles of money and some huge tracts of lands. Maybe demand Mallisters to be their vassal or land currently belonging to House Reed and the north. The important part is that the terms should be seen as extremely tilted in Walders favor to really show that in order for the North to make up for what they did wrong, they now must pay a hefty sum in resources and prestige to make up for it. 

Walder Frey choose to break the old tradition of guest right, making sure no one can ever be safe in someone elses home (something we still have today with diplomatic immunity) in order to take his vengeance. I don´t care about northern lives, I care about that principle he just violated. A principle seen as holy in Westeros and the worst crime possible is to break it. Because of Walder Frey no one will dare to make a peace with their enemies under their enemies roof, making sure that vendettas will go on forever. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The Freys are rich.  The Twins is an easy to defend castle.  They have a history of doing what they want, regardless of what the king or their liege lord does...so, I don't buy that they "had" to do anything, let alone the Red Weddding to appease Tywin.  

The Freys have little military expertise. Also I can't see how 3k-5k army can stop the Tyrell-Lannister might TBH especially since no one will come to their rescue.

[Lion of the West]

50 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Of course they had - they had in fact many choices.

They could have sent a raven to King´s landing to negotiate their surrender and loyalty to the crown. The Stormlords got it after Blackwater. The Riverlords after red wedding. And that was after they were defeated and captured. Walder Frey is neither and should have enough to offer to work it out. I find it extremely unlikely that the Lannisters wouldn´t accept. In fact, if I were Tywin, I would jump on such an option. Then the Freys can gather at the Twins in full strength, refusing to let Robb pass north, flying Joffreys banner and shoot whatever projectiles they can when Robb is forced to assult and storm, when of couse a large army led by Tarly have been force marching to take them in the rear. And if they try to avoid your territory you can attack them and/or harrass their flank. This is what I consider the proper reaction to the lack of northern honor - a justified war.

Totally support this. Lyonel Baratheon also waged a war over a broken betrothel and the Freys are as justified as him to defend their honor.

EDITED: its easier to quote someone saying what you were thinking than write it all over again.

[devilish]

39 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Of course they had - they had in fact many choices.

They could have sent a raven to King´s landing to negotiate their surrender and loyalty to the crown. The Stormlords got it after Blackwater. The Riverlords after red wedding. And that was after they were defeated and captured. Walder Frey is neither and should have enough to offer to work it out. I find it extremely unlikely that the Lannisters wouldn´t accept. In fact, if I were Tywin, I would jump on such an option. Then the Freys can gather at the Twins in full strength, refusing to let Robb pass north, flying Joffreys banner and shoot whatever projectiles they can when Robb is forced to assult and storm, when of couse a large army led by Tarly have been force marching to take them in the rear. And if they try to avoid your territory you can attack them and/or harrass their flank. This is what I consider the proper reaction to the lack of northern honor - a justified war. 

They could have honest with their position and tried a diplomatic  war - that due to The Norths treachery (yes, a very important case that should be made is that this is not something Robb is individually responsible for, but something the entire north can be blamed for) there exists a state of war between the Twins and the North and that House Frey has been horribly treated by a false king who´s word is not worth anything and lacks justice to be a proper king in the first place. Do alot of PR in the region making fellow riverlords shun the northerners for their treacherous ways and (especially if the North attack the twins later) use that as an argument that the north are nothing but savages who has no dignity and humanity in them whatsoever and are born of lies. Not only do their word have no value, but they then attack the people they have offended in order to silence the truth about what has happened. Maybe send out some bards to spread this story over the entire realm as much as possible.

They could have demanded harsh reparations and accept Robbs counter-offer but with some added weight. In general, far, far more forcing Robb to beg apology, adding some large piles of money and some huge tracts of lands. Maybe demand Mallisters to be their vassal or land currently belonging to House Reed and the north. The important part is that the terms should be seen as extremely tilted in Walders favor to really show that in order for the North to make up for what they did wrong, they now must pay a hefty sum in resources and prestige to make up for it. 

Walder Frey choose to break the old tradition of guest right, making sure no one can ever be safe in someone elses home (something we still have today with diplomatic immunity) in order to take his vengeance. I don´t care about northern lives, I care about that principle he just violated. A principle seen as holy in Westeros and the worst crime possible is to break it. Because of Walder Frey no one will dare to make a peace with their enemies under their enemies roof, making sure that vendettas will go on forever. 

You seem to be a rational person. Tywin is not rational. He’s a person who’ll hold to grudges forever and would act upon them in the most spectacular way even when it ends up hurting his own family. He had no reason to drown the Reynes mines. Actually it was stupid to do so as those mines was worth a fortune. Did he cared? No. He had no reason to have Tyrion’s wife raped by half an army either.  Doing so would piss off the imp, who was close enough to Tywin to hurt him if he wanted to and it also contributed to bring the Lannisters into ridicule (low born actually raped a lion’s wife). Surely there’s more elegant ways to tackle the issue like having assassinated or bribed. Did Tywin cared? No. He had no reason to have Elia raped and brutally killed. By doing so he attracted the hatred of a powerful house. Did he cared? No

So here’s the drift. Walder was able to exploit Tythos weaknesses and convince him to have Emmon marry Genna. That was something Tywin disagreed upon. Despite opposition, he still cared for the boy, who lived in CR on Lannister payroll without any complaints from either Tywin or his offspring. At one point things degenerated and Tywin invaded the Riverlands. The plan worked to perfection. Edmure was captured, Riverrun was besieged and the Riverlands were in shambles. All that was needed was for Walder to stay true to his marital ties with the Lannisters and his allegiance to his king and hold the North long enough to make Edmure bend the knee before the North could react. 

Instead of paying his debt to Tywin, Walder signed a yet better deal with the North, allowing Robb to sneak in. That swiftly turned a near victory into a defeat. The Lannister army ended up scattered, Edmure was rescued and Jamie was captured. The golden boy would be returned few months later without his sword hand.

If you think that the same Tywin who orchestrated the Reynes of Castamere, Elia’s spectacular murder and the red wedding would  be lenient to them then think again. The lion was thirsty for the spectacular again. If Walder didn't provide that then he would have ended the victim of it

PS: The Iron Islanders had captured Moat Cailin. which is a meat grinder for any invader from the South. Robb could not possibly assault Moat Cailin without losing most of his men and with Lannister men at his back he couldn't risk it. Even by some miracle the young wolf managed to go to the North, he certainly wasn't in a position to help Walder who would be left at the mercy of a furious Tywin in search of blood. 

[The hairy bear]

The OP is completely right that Walder Frey risked everything supporting Robb. He gambled everything on him, in exchange of a very precise pact. The Freys complied, to the point that Walder's firstborn died fighting for Robb. And then he breaks that pact for selfish reasons. And offers "amends" that are ridiculous in comparison.

And even if we ignore that Robb gravely offended the Freys' honor, changing sides when the prospects are dire is not that uncommon. Most Robb supporters did this, sooner or later: the Brackes, the Pipers, the Vances,... all of them eventually bent the knee.

The problem is not Walder abandoning Robb. If he had just declared for Joffrey and the Freys had killed Robb in the battlefield, that would be justified. But the betrayal, the breaking of the guest's right and they way the massacred unarmed guests at a wedding that couldn't defend themselves is what makes the Freys worthless scum.

 

 

[devilish]

9 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The OP is completely right that Walder Frey risked everything supporting Robb. He gambled everything on him, in exchange of a very precise pact. The Freys complied, to the point that Walder's firstborn died fighting for Robb. And then he breaks that pact for selfish reasons. And offers "amends" that are ridiculous in comparison.

And even if we ignore that Robb gravely offended the Freys' honor, changing sides when the prospects are dire is not that uncommon. Most Robb supporters did this, sooner or later: the Brackes, the Pipers, the Vances,... all of them eventually bent the knee.

The problem is not Walder abandoning Robb. If he had just declared for Joffrey and the Freys had killed Robb in the battlefield, that would be justified. But the betrayal, the breaking of the guest's right and they way the massacred unarmed guests at a wedding that couldn't defend themselves is what makes the Freys worthless scum.

 

 

In my opinion, the red wedding was all Tywin's doing. Its the typical spectacular (yet tacky) show of power which is synonmous with Tywin (Reynes of Castamere, Tysha's, Elia's rape and brutal murder etc).

Walder would have never come out with such a plan (+ getting the Boltons on  board) alone. It was a salty price to pay for the Frey's independence after they backstabbed the Lannisters by allowing the young wolf in. That action costed Tywin a costly defeat, the Riverlands (which was very close to surrender) and his son's sword arm. 

I can't see how Walder would have survived the day if he didn't do Tywin's bidding. 

[Raisin' Bran]

7 minutes ago, devilish said:

You seem to be a rational person. Tywin is not rational. He’s a person who’ll hold to grudges forever and would act upon them in the most spectacular way even when it ends up hurting his own family. He had no reason to drown the Reynes mines. Actually it was stupid to do so as those mines was worth a fortune. Did he cared? No. He had no reason to have Tyrion’s wife raped by half an army either.  Doing so would piss off the imp, who was close enough to Tywin to hurt him if he wanted to and it also contributed to bring the Lannisters into ridicule (low born actually raped a lion’s wife). Surely there’s more elegant ways to tackle the issue like having assassinated or bribed. Did Tywin cared? No. He had no reason to have Elia raped and brutally killed. By doing so he attracted the hatred of a powerful house. Did he cared? No.

Is seems that you believe that Tywin was mad, Cersei madder, and Joffrey maddest of them all.

But how do you figure that Tywin would counsel Joffrey that when an enemy goes to his knees, you must help him up? Was he paying lip service to a societal norm or did he believe that was the best course of action?

[Praetor Xyn]

1 minute ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Is seems that you believe that Tywin was mad, Cersei madder, and Joffrey maddest of them all.

But how do you figure that Tywin would counsel Joffrey that when an enemy goes to his knees, you must help him up? Was he paying lip service to a societal norm or did he believe that was the best course of action?

Honestly I wouldn't have thought badly of them if they just killed Robb. They killed thousands.

[devilish]

7 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Is seems that you believe that Tywin was mad, Cersei madder, and Joffrey maddest of them all.

But how do you figure that Tywin would counsel Joffrey that when an enemy goes to his knees, you must help him up? Was he paying lip service to a societal norm or did he believe that was the best course of action?

Not mad, he's just extremely vindictive when he feels betrayed. The Lannisters always pay their debt, and Walder had accrued quite a big debt towards them.

There's a big difference between the average bannerman who followed their LP to war as expected from them and someone who worked hard to go in Lannister's favor (through marriage), only to backstab them in their times of need.

The Freys are anything but the run of the mill bannerman. They would sell anyone to the highest bidder and that something the Lannisters learnt on their own skin. Tywin wouldn't forget that. 

Seriously mate it also makes rational sense to get rid of them. Their land is strategically positioned both financially wise and military wise. Having Emmon Frey inherit the land would secure a loyal subject to a quite sensitive region + it would make Genna's family extremely rich. That unless of course, Walder does something incredibly drastic and stupid to appease the king

[Boarsbane]

There is nothing to suggest Tywin was particularly mad at Walder for siding with Robb, it's purely your own invention. The Westerlings sided with Robb too even though they were his own bannermen, did he massacre them for it?