Did Walder Frey even have a choice?

[Kaibaman]

36 minutes ago, marsyao said:

No, not a threat, but if you want to be house of the Queen of the rebellion, you ought to pay extra price if you fail, I think it is fair and not complicate at all

If Tywin were to punish the Freys at all it wouldn't be because of the prospect of having one of their ladies becoming the wife of his great enemy, but rather how much their dealings with Robb had inconvenienced him. Remember the pact Robb made with them allowed him to cross their bridge and take Jaime's host by surprise. If Walder had stayed true to Tywin and denied Robb access, it would have given the Lannisters a significant edge early on as Robb might not have been as successful in routing Jaime's forces and capturing him alive.

[marsyao]

5 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

How is a marriage agreement any worse than participating in the killing of Tywin's men like every other rebel house did? At least Walder demanded stuff in exchange for his loyalty, the others fought Tywin for free and he still didn't punish them.

if it is an ordinary marriage agreement, then it is no big deal, but if the marriage agreement made one of the Frey girl the queen of the rebelion, then, yes, it is a big deal, much bigger than killing enemy in the war.  do not understand why you still have not got it

[Boarsbane]

24 minutes ago, marsyao said:

if it is an ordinary marriage agreement, then it is no big deal, but if the marriage agreement made one of the Frey girl the queen of the rebelion, then, yes, it is a big deal, much bigger than killing enemy in the war.  do not understand why you still have not got it

The marriage agreement wasn't to make a Frey girl queen, it was to make her wife to the heir of Winterfell. Now there is a family that actually did marry KING Robb, and this family actually owed Tywin their alligence first and foremost, but they weren't wiped out for it. The notion that Tywin would feel obligated to go above and beyond to punish Walder over everyone else is ridiculous, Walder was just being an opportunistic weasel, and even if Tywin were annoyed, every other Riverlands house fought him for free so the Freys are his best option to hand the Riverlands over to, especially since his sister is married to one and his nephews are half Frey.

[Lord Wraith]

Tony Teflon has an interesting video on the issue.

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Boarsbane said:

The marriage agreement wasn't to make a Frey girl queen, it was to make her wife to the heir of Winterfell. Now there is a family that actually did marry KING Robb, and this family actually owed Tywin their alligence first and foremost, but they weren't wiped out for it. The notion that Tywin would feel obligated to go above and beyond to punish Walder over everyone else is ridiculous, 

Not really. When Robb went West to 'pay the Lannisters back in kind for their destruction caused in the Riverlands' he brought with him around 6k men, 1k of which were the cavalry horse. That is likely more men than any other single House.

The Westerlings alliance to Robb did not have a detrimental effect to the Lannisters, the Freys alliance did. It cost them thousands of lives at Riverrun including many nobles. 

The Freys caused far more trouble to the Lannisters than any other Riverland House, and all the Northern houses apart from the Starks, Walder would have been expected to be punished. Being wiped out is just the worst that could happen but having lands and riches taken was certainly going to happen to them. 

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 especially since his sister is married to one and his nephews are half Frey.

And that is not great for Walder either as Tywin has a ready made replacement for Walder and many of his heirs. He has a Frey to rule the Twins and can rid himself of Walder and many of his heirs and put his own Freys in charge

[devilish]

12 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

He could have taken his soldiers home and that would be the end of it. All riverland houses who bent the knee were spared dont see why they wouldnt.

All riverland houses were loyal to their LP + their sons were not married to a Lannister. Walder is an opportunist whose choice costed the Lannisters a defeat, the Riverlands and Jamie's sword arm. That despite Walder's son had been living on Lannister wealth for years.

The Freys are extremely unpopular in the Riverlands and the twins is a gold mine with strategic military importance. A Lannister puppet would basically end the North's hope of a quick incursion to the Riverlands. Having Walder out would not only increase Tywin's fear factor and would gift the crown with a sort of mini reverse Moat Cailin but would also garner the crown popularity points among those who hate the Freys. 

 

[devilish]

5 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

He didn't make the other Riverlords or even Northern lords pay a hefty price for rebellion. Why would he be so prejudiced towards the Freys? Especially when you consider that Walder is his uncle by marriage, he might have let them take over the Riverlands anyway.

They were extended family. His son was married to Tywin's sister and had been living in Lannister pockets ever since. The one time the Lannisters actually needed the Freys to do something for them they ended up backstabbing them and they did so, not out of duty towards their LP but out of mere profit. 

Getting rid of Walder and his brood made sense in many ways

a- it would be a popular move with the Riverland Lords. No one like the Freys
b- While not being exactly Moat Cailin, the twins is a formidable fortress which can cut any quick incursion from the North to the Riverlands. Having a Lannister puppet there would ensure that such a thing won't happen
c- By gifting Emmon Frey the twins, the Lannisters would still have Riverrun to give to somebody else. I am sure that good old Kevan was itching for a lordship. 
d- It would send a message that any family who marries a Lannister will be showered with gifts IF they are loyal to them (Lordships, castles, living like a king in CR) but will be punished if they don't

The only thing that Walder could do for the Freys to remain independent was to give the Lannister a bigger prize then the twins. By killing Robb and taking Edmure + half the Northern Lords as hostage, Walder had provided Tywin with the key to both regions. Sansa was now heiress to the North while Edmure (and any possible offspring) was in CR. 

 

 

[devilish]

6 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Manderlys are Robb's richest supporters. 

And why would Tywin take the Freys lands? Seriously the Freys are a rich and very fertile house Tywin was not going to take their lands. In Tywin's mind the Freys were supporting their leige lords it's what they are suppose to do. 

First of all they weren't supporting their liege Lords. All they care about is about supporting themselves and that something everyone knows from the Wall to Dorne. I am pretty sure Tywin would have exchanged a cup of wine with one of the Riverland Lords who would surely explained him the 'behind the scenes' behind the young wolf failed expeditions. You don't want opportunists like him around especially in such unstable environment. 

Secondly Tywin is a man to hold grudges. Walder's son was married to a Lannister, a rare honour Tywin never liked  but had always respected. Emmon lived in CR and enjoyed all the benefits of being married to a lioness. The one time, the lions needed the Freys to do something for them they dissapointed them. The result to that was devastating (the crown lost the Riverlands, Tywin got his first defeat and Jamie lost his sword arm). Tywin will remember that

Thirdly, removing Walder would be a popular move. No one likes the Freys, especially Walder.Seeing them being kicked out will earn brownie points with most houses. 

Fourthly the Twins has great financial and military strategy. The place is a gold mine + it can provide solid defense against a quick advance from a Northern army. Giving it to Emmon made sense as he's a Frey, he's loyal to the Tywin and he's got Royce blood in him (hence gaining brownie points with the Vale). It would also mean getting rid of his family whose been living on Lannister money for years 

If Emmon takes the twins, then Riverrun will remain vacant. I am pretty sure Kevan would love a castle of his own. That move would further consolidate the Lannister's grip over the Riverlands (Emmon and Littlefinger owe their castles and lordships to the Lannister crown)

 

 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, marsyao said:

No, not a threat, but if you want to be house of the Queen of the rebellion, you ought to pay extra price if you fail, I think it is fair and not complicate at all

Yes. The queen of the rebellion. There's never any mercy for those.

I fully remember the wrath, the vengeance, all the gruesome things inflicted by Tywin Lannister on House Tyrell after Renly's failure. Oh, wait...

[devilish]

26 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yes. The queen of the rebellion. There's never any mercy for those.

I fully remember the wrath, the vengeance, all the gruesome things inflicted by Tywin Lannister on House Tyrell after Renly's failure. Oh, wait...

Army size counts. Lannister, Greyjoy and Freys joined Robert’s rebellion late when it was evident that the war was won. The Greyjoys were never taunted by it, the Lannisters were rewarded by having Cersei marry the new King while Walder was sneered at for the rest of his days.  Mace Tyrell brings to the table the richest region in Westeros and a 60k army. His men can turn the tide of battle between Lannisters, Starks and Baratheon. The Lannisters couldn’t piss off a house which was currently stronger than them.

Mace’s and Walder’s situation is on a way different level.  The former represent a family, whom till then, everyone loved. The latter is hated by most of the Riverlands. The former were instrumental in saving Tywin’s offspring in KL, the latter’s betrayal caused Jamie’s capture and the loss of his sword arm. The former had a brilliant general and enough soldiers to give Tywin a spanking. The latter saddled Tywin with upkeep of his son and all his brood.

[Kaibaman]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

They were extended family. His son was married to Tywin's sister and had been living in Lannister pockets ever since. The one time the Lannisters actually needed the Freys to do something for them they ended up backstabbing them and they did so, not out of duty towards their LP but out of mere profit. 

Getting rid of Walder and his brood made sense in many ways

a- it would be a popular move with the Riverland Lords. No one like the Freys
b- While not being exactly Moat Cailin, the twins is a formidable fortress which can cut any quick incursion from the North to the Riverlands. Having a Lannister puppet there would ensure that such a thing won't happen
c- By gifting Emmon Frey the twins, the Lannisters would still have Riverrun to give to somebody else. I am sure that good old Kevan was itching for a lordship. 
d- It would send a message that any family who marries a Lannister will be showered with gifts IF they are loyal to them (Lordships, castles, living like a king in CR) but will be punished if they don't

The only thing that Walder could do for the Freys to remain independent was to give the Lannister a bigger prize then the twins. By killing Robb and taking Edmure + half the Northern Lords as hostage, Walder had provided Tywin with the key to both regions. Sansa was now heiress to the North while Edmure (and any possible offspring) was in CR. 

 

 

I suppose Tywin could have used Walder's betrayal as a pretext to annihilate the Freys at the Twins and then give the Crossing to his sister and her husband to broaden Lannister influence in the Riverlands. Although I kinda have a feeling that taking the Twins is no easy task. Plus if Robb were ever to retreat he and some loyal Riverlords could hold out at the Twins for a while when you consider that they would control the land north of the castle's bridge thus making it impossible for the Lannisters to lay siege to it and that would make the war drag out for a lot longer. The way I see it whether Tywin liked it or not one way or another he needed the Freys on his side. Their castle was far too strategically important in the war. If they had openly defected after Robb married Jeyne then Robb's retreat North would have been closed off and he would have been trapped like a fish in a pond as Tywin would have just closed in slowly with greater force and worn him down. So basically with the Freys the Lannisters would have won either by battle or betrayal but without them, Robb would of had a chance in hell of winning or at least prolonging the war.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Mace’s and Walder’s situation is on a way different level.

Oh, sure. Nevertheless, the arguments about the alleged horrible peril for House Frey are completely unfounded. For some peculiar reason, nobody in-universe mentions it. No Frey, no Lannister, no Bolton, nor anyone else. In-universe, it's a non-existent concept.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

 The former represent a family, whom till then, everyone loved. The latter is hated by most of the Riverlands.

Yes. Because of the Red Fucking Wedding.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Kaibaman said:

I suppose Tywin could have used Walder's betrayal as a pretext to annihilate the Freys at the Twins and then give the Crossing to his sister and her husband to broaden Lannister influence in the Riverlands. Although I kinda have a feeling that taking the Twins is no easy task. Plus if Robb were ever to retreat he and some loyal Riverlords could hold out at the Twins for a while when you consider that they would control the land north of the castle's bridge thus making it impossible for the Lannisters to lay siege to it and that would make the war drag out for a lot longer. The way I see it whether Tywin liked it or not one way or another he needed the Freys on his side. Their castle was far too strategically important in the war. If they had openly defected after Robb married Jeyne then Robb's retreat North would have been closed off and he would have been trapped like a fish in a pond as Tywin would have just closed in slowly with greater force and worn him down. So basically with the Freys the Lannisters would have won either by battle or betrayal but without them, Robb would of had a chance in hell of winning or at least prolonging the war.

Once Stannis was defeated then Robb would be next on the crown’s list. Its assumed that the Tyrells have an army of around 50k-60k soldiers. The Lannisters have around half of that. They certainly have the men to defeat Robb with ease and with so many shared borders (Reach, Westerlands, Crownlands) the invasion would be quite straightforward.

The crown has also regained dominance over the seas. The Redwynes could easily transport Lannister-Tyrell men to the North, whose currently in chaos (having just been invaded by the Iron Islanders) and therefore they are not in a position to mount any serious defence against them.  Lannister-Tyrell soldiers can then assault Moat Cailin from its ‘weaker’ side, sealing the North from land. Ships can make sure that no boat from the Riverlands ports goes North, closing the sea route too. 

At that point Robb had 3 choices. He could lead the charge which would, most probably, lead to his death. He could bend the knee or he could try his luck in smuggling himself back to the North. All three choices will end with the Riverlands Lords bending the knee. The final choice is probably the wisest choice from Robb’s perspective. Time is of an essence on that one because as said, soon both land and sea will be ruled by the crown. 

Assuming the young wolf is not as stupid as his uncle was then he would flee the Riverlands as soon as he hears about the Tyrell-Lannister advance. He doesn’t have the men to hold the twins or to capture Moat Cailin so his only way out is to smuggle himself back to the North, probably on a boat.  He’ll probably take Edmure, his mum and his most powerful Lords with him if possible. Brynden will probably remain South to hold the Lannister-Tyrell off however once the trout and the wolf flee, I seriously doubt that Brynden will succeed in convincing many Riverland Lords to stay in line. 

The twins is a powerful castle, which is located very close to the North. Assuming that the red wedding never occur then as loyal subject, Walder will be expected to resist the siege until Robb captures Moat Cailin and raise enough troops to rescue him. The bulk of the Northern army will probably be stationed there with Brynden in command.  If that happens then Walder would become just a glorified prisoner in his own castle. He can force the Northerners out and sure as hell, Brynden would never surrender. 

Walder can of course refuse to give hospitality to these men. In that case he’ll probably end up being ignored by Robb. The young wolf simply doesn’t have the troops or the time to put him in line. 

That means that when Tywin arrives to the Twins, Walder will have nothing to offer him to calm him down. The Frey Lord is ancient, his brood is numerous and most of them don’t even have a claim to the crossing in the first place. Would they stick to their elderly father, knowing that sooner or later the Lannisters will barge in and kill them all? Or would they simply stage a coup by opening the gates, and hope that Tywin would spare them?  Emmon is a good man. Surely he wouldn't leave his own blood to starve to death would he?

That’s a bit of a problem considering that by allowing the North quick access to the Riverlands, Walder has costed Tywin troops and his son’s capture/sword arm. 
 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oh, sure. Nevertheless, the arguments about the alleged horrible peril for House Frey are completely unfounded. For some peculiar reason, nobody in-universe mentions it. No Frey, no Lannister, no Bolton, nor anyone else. In-universe, it's a non-existent concept.

Yes. Because of the Red Fucking Wedding.

The Freys weren't rated prior to the Red wedding.Tywin was against Tythos marrying his sister to a Frey and Hoster constantly taunted Walder by calling him late Walder Frey and by refusing to attend to his numerous weddings.

After the red wedding the Freys were ignored because they simply couldn't live without the crown's help. Their reputation was in tatters, they were hated by three regions (one of which was the Riverlands) and they could barely keep a band of petty thieves at bay let alone stage a rebellion. 

 

[The Commentator]

On 2/28/2017 at 10:00 AM, devilish said:

He showed no mercy to House Reyne and House Tarbeck who were richer and more respected then the Freys. Tywin went tough against them despite the fact that neither  houses were married to a Lannister (hence obliged to take family side) or costed Jamie's sword hand

I believe that Tywin would have probably forced Walder to exile (or worse), alongside with Black Walder and most of his offspring. Emmon would inherit the twins with his sons (who were probably raised to be more Lannister then Freys) to inherit the twins. 

The Lannisters have this reputation for what they did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks.  I don't blame the Freys for wanting to avoid that situation.  Tywin was not about to let the Freys take the neutral position without punishing them later.  

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Manderlys are Robb's richest supporters. 

And why would Tywin take the Freys lands? Seriously the Freys are a rich and very fertile house Tywin was not going to take their lands. In Tywin's mind the Freys were supporting their leige lords it's what they are suppose to do. 

The Manderlys are the richest family in the north but that does not make them richer than the Freys.

[Protagoras]

23 hours ago, devilish said:

Snip

So, your argument hinges on your evaluation on Tywin Lannister. And said evaluation have been questioned harshly by other posters. I tend to agree that Tywin acting like this is very much out of of character and that your picture of Tywin is simply very wrong.

What Tywin always do is to punish the front runner, the leader. And that is not Walder. Tywin know that Walder is a riverlord and it is expected for him to follow his liege Hoster - which Tywin have recently attacked. Now, he might had hoped that Late Lord Frey would earn his name again, but there was no reason for Tywin to assume that he had a friend in the lord of the crossing. Since there were no alliance in the first place, there can´t have been a treasonous backstab and broken promises - can it. And while it certainly would have costed Walder money and hostages (like all losers in a war), Walder do have the advantage of his forces intact and not captured. 

You are completely mistaking people spitting in Tywins face (Aerys, the Reynes) with people acting what is normally expected on them (Freys, Stormlords). And this is true for Tyrion too. Compare with his trial. Many witnesses, but only Shae "made it personal" and Tyrion seems to have little ill will vs the rest of them. You don´t draw the lions tail just by showing opposition. You annoy the lion by acting disrespectful and by making it personal. Walder never did. The person Tywin blame for the Genna-marriage is of course his weak father Tytos who accepted it. By true feudal logic - the problem is not the people using the dummy, the problem is the dummy. And Walder did show respect - he wanted a Lannister daughter after all. This is not really the same thing as snubbing the Lannister marriage suggestion to Aerys. 

[SeanF]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:52 PM, devilish said:

 

 

Walder sided against his son’s father in law by siding with Robb and against the crown. Such action caused the Lannisters the costliest defeat throughout the war. They were defeated in battle, Edmure was snatched away from them and Jamie was captured only to be returned without his sword’s hand. Such victory also paved the way for Robb to cross the point of no return by putting a crown over his head.  A rebellious Warden could be made to bend the knee, providing he offered the right reassurances (hostages etc). A rebellious king had to die especially since he ruled such a big and difficult region to conquer.

 

Irrespective whether Robb decided to take on the Lannister-Tyrell force or act wisely and find a way to return North and fight another day, the Riverlands was lost. No one was in a position to defend it anymore and the most vindictive man in Westeros was set to snatch full control over this land. If Robb did manage to return North in one piece then that would infuriate the old lion even further. Lannister men had never fought so far North and that expedition will be costly both in terms of funds and men. That would push the crown deeper into Tyrell pockets. Guess who would be at the receiving end of Tywin’s fury? The man who was bound by marriage to stop this from happening but instead put personal glory first. 

 

Walder's actions were despicable. However I don't believe he really had a choice but to obey Tywin. 

He could simply have switched sides.  Tywin would hardly turn down the offer of 4,000 men and an immensely important strategic location.

[Boarsbane]

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not really. When Robb went West to 'pay the Lannisters back in kind for their destruction caused in the Riverlands' he brought with him around 6k men, 1k of which were the cavalry horse. That is likely more men than any other single House.

The Westerlings alliance to Robb did not have a detrimental effect to the Lannisters, the Freys alliance did. It cost them thousands of lives at Riverrun including many nobles. 

The Freys caused far more trouble to the Lannisters than any other Riverland House, and all the Northern houses apart from the Starks, Walder would have been expected to be punished. Being wiped out is just the worst that could happen but having lands and riches taken was certainly going to happen to them. 

And that is not great for Walder either as Tywin has a ready made replacement for Walder and many of his heirs. He has a Frey to rule the Twins and can rid himself of Walder and many of his heirs and put his own Freys in charge

I doubt Tywin was given the exact breakdown of troops that went West with Robb nor would he particularly cares whose they were so much as they were terrorizing his lands.

So why isn't he slaughtering Mallister and the families of the Northmen who were in that host along with the Freys if he is so upset about it.

Weird for all this supposed anger and damage the Freys caused Tywin that not a hint of it is seen in Tywin's interactions with other characters. He doesn't need to give Emmon and Genna the Twins and Walder knows it, the Tullys are going to get it a lot worse than the Freys and anyone with half a brain can guess who will get Riverrun once the Lannisters take it. 

[The Wolves]

31 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The Manderlys are the richest family in the north but that does not make them richer than the Freys.

The Manderlys get their income from silver mines and control one the country's only five cities plus are importing multiple products and trading with various cities and Essos for their income. 

The Freys control a bridge. They may be rich but Robb's richest bannermen they are not.