Just Rhaegar and Lyanna things

[The Exiled Septa]

One of the most desbuted theme in asoiaf is whether Rhaegar loved Lyanna and visa versa or not.It seems that half the fans believe that they loved each other and the other half believe that they didnt.But why couldnt be something between those two??

I for myshelf dont support the idea of them falling  in love at first sight.I think that Rhaegar somehow realised that Lyanna was the  one to bear the prince who was promised and somehow convinced her too.

It would make perfect sense for if they had fallen in love at first sight why wait one year to disappear and live their love??More importantly were they so selfless that they would risk the lives of so many people just so they could be together?

Rhaegar was descriped as an honorable and respected man who liked the smalfolk and wad obsessed with the prophesy of the prince that wad promished.So would he really sacrifise so many lives and abandon his son even thought he thought he was the prince that was promished?

No unless there was something far greater and frightening to come if he didnt make that 3rd child with Lyanna ..not if he realised that he had made a huge mistake in believing that Aegon was the prince who was promished.

The same goes for Lyanna.She loved her family dearly so i couldnt envision her running of with a man without caring for the consequences of her actions to those she loved.Unless again she knew that if she didnt go with Rhaegar all of humankind was lost

So i dont think that Rhaegar and Lyanna actually loved each other at first.They certainly liked each other at the beginning and then during of their duration at the Tower of Joy they eventually came to love one another since there are undisputed proofs of that 

--Rhaegar naming the tower ->tower of  joy

--Lyanna dying in a bed full of blue roses

--*And ofcourse the most important of all is the fact that Rhaegar wispered Lyannas name before he died (i think GRRM confired that the name was Lyannas )!

So what do you guys think ?

Let me know!!

Sorry for bad english

[velo-knight]

Hi! Welcome to the forum! 

I'm not sure Lyanna's personality supports the "convinced to prophecy" argument - she's strong, willful, and probably doesn't like being reduced to a vessel for Rhaegar to create the destiny child. This is one of the biggest problems with the "Prophecy, then love" argument for me: it just doesn't seem likely that she'd be sympathetic to that sort of argument, and even as the reader, seeing characters have for-real prophetic visions and magic powers, still aren't sure who's the destined prince/princess. Rhaegar might be likable, intelligent, and convincing, but it seems pretty out-of-character for Lyanna to go along with. Now, this could support the more sinister "Robert-was-right, but-Rhaegar-was-trying-to-fulfill-the-prophecy" narrative, where Lyanna really was abducted.

I agree that, whatever feelings they may have had (I suspect there may have been a bit of a mutual crush there, but we can't know unless we see more about the tourney at Harrenhal, which seems unlikely) weren't the only reason they acted, though. It's just too rash, and inconsistent with a man like Rhaegar, who's been slowly trying to put a plot together against his father only to have it fail at the last minute. I think the more likely answer is some set of unknown, external circumstances (such as Aerys discovering she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and sending men to arrest her) forced Lyanna and Rhaegar together, and by the time that situation was resolved, the conflict was beyond defusing. Close proximity during a period of extended excitement, stress, hardship and adventure make for a pretty plausible way for them to have fallen truly in love, as well. 

 

[Makk]

It's possible to fall in love but remain apart due to duty, life situation etc.

Just because they didn't hook up straight away is not a reason to argue they weren't in love. Of course it's not a reason to argue they were in love either.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

I think he did love Lyanna. Even more so, I think that Viserys also knew this and he told Daenerys.....
I have started my 4th re-read of the books this weekend, and was intrigued by the following.

Quote

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. her brother Rhaegar battling the Userper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the women he loved

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

Dany of course knows nothing about Westeros, Roberts Rebellion and everything related to it, except for all the stories she heard from her brother. How did she know that Rhaegar died for the women he loved (Lyanna). Especially since Viserys believed Rhaegar wasn't happy in his marriage with Elia
According to Rhaegar's younger brother, Viserys Targaryen, Rhaegar was simply not happy with his marriage. He believes that, if Rhaegar had been happy with Elia, he would not have needed Lyanna. Source

[KingMance]

1 hour ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

I think he did love Lyanna. Even more so, I think that Viserys also knew this and he told Daenerys.....
I have started my 4th re-read of the books this weekend, and was intrigued by the following.

 

Funny, I too started my 4th (5th?) Reread this weekend, and paused when I hit that passage. What's odd to me is Dany thinks harshly of the Starks later on when Barristan is telling her about them. Did Viserys get fed false information about why their was a war in the first place? Did he think his brother died for Elia? He was only 8 when they fled KL, so maybe his story is conflicted. If he knew Rhaegar died fighting for Lyanna, AND told Dany that truth, I feel their should be less hatred from Viserys and Danys POV. dunno 

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

32 minutes ago, KingMance said:

Funny, I too started my 4th (5th?) Reread this weekend, and paused when I hit that passage. What's odd to me is Dany thinks harshly of the Starks later on when Barristan is telling her about them. Did Viserys get fed false information about why their was a war in the first place? Did he think his brother died for Elia? He was only 8 when they fled KL, so maybe his story is conflicted. If he knew Rhaegar died fighting for Lyanna, AND told Dany that truth, I feel their should be less hatred from Viserys and Danys POV. dunno 

I was also doubting if it is my 4^th or 5^th reread....

Well, of course his story is conflicted and most likely unreliable (I know I'm shooting holes in my own theory now). However, he was aware of the fact that Rhaegar and Elia weren't happily married. He also knew that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the Crown of blue winter-roses and the title QOLAB at the Tourney at Harrenhall. He also knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar disappeared, since that was common knowledge.

I wonder if Viserys knew more then just these facts and his suspicions on the unhappy marriage.....

[KingMance]

29 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

I was also doubting if it is my 4^th or 5^th reread....

Well, of course his story is conflicted and most likely unreliable (I know I'm shooting holes in my own theory now). However, he was aware of the fact that Rhaegar and Elia weren't happily married. He also knew that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the Crown of blue winter-roses and the title QOLAB at the Tourney at Harrenhall. He also knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar disappeared, since that was common knowledge.

I wonder if Viserys knew more then just these facts and his suspicions on the unhappy marriage.....

True, even at 8 he should have a general understanding of what's going on. Too bad Dany had a psycho idiot for a big brother. 

The problem with the starks and targs boils down to a huge misunderstanding and lack of communication. If Rhaegar and Lyanna just told their families "hey we're in love and really need to make TPTWP prophecy come true, be cool about this" everything would have been fine and dandy. We'd also have a really boring series to read.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

42 minutes ago, KingMance said:

True, even at 8 he should have a general understanding of what's going on. Too bad Dany had a psycho idiot for a big brother. 

The problem with the starks and targs boils down to a huge misunderstanding and lack of communication. If Rhaegar and Lyanna just told their families "hey we're in love and really need to make TPTWP prophecy come true, be cool about this" everything would have been fine and dandy. We'd also have a really boring series to read.

I think the story wouldn't be boring, but completely different. Lets face it, Ned wouldn't be asked as HOTK, bran wouldn't be thrown out of the tower, Dany wouldn't have married Drogo, meaning no petrified Dragon eggs, so no Dragons. it would be a completely different story.
Let's face it: We should be glad they didn't tell their parents. The story as it is, is probably a lot more interesting.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, Makk said:

It's possible to fall in love but remain apart due to duty, life situation etc.

 

Which is, IMHO, what happened - Rhaegar fell for her but didn't act on his feelings because of his duty to produce the three dragon heads with his wife. Elia's poor health and inability to give birth to the third child gave him an excuse to pursue his love for Lyanna.

3 hours ago, KingMance said:

The problem with the starks and targs boils down to a huge misunderstanding and lack of communication. If Rhaegar and Lyanna just told their families "hey we're in love and really need to make TPTWP prophecy come true, be cool about this" everything would have been fine and dandy. 

Er.... no. For one, we don't know if Lyanna told anyone or not. Second, why should their families believe the PTWP prophecy? Third, why should Aerys allow Rhaegar to be with the love of his life when he himself couldn't, and why should Rickard break his word to Robert, not to mention the whole issue with the acceptance of polygamy.

[The Commentator]

So we've been told Rhaegar was an honorable man.  Until we get a Rhaegar POV, which we won't, we will never know for sure.  Besides, even men who are normally honorable can succumb to temptation.  Suppose Rhaegar threw duty aside and logic aside for one instant and decided he had to have the wolf girl.  Lyanna was impulsive and headstrong from all accounts.  I doubt concepts such as duty, honor, custom, and responsibility factored much in her decisions.  If she is anything like Arya, she would have been a reckless risk taker.  

If we assume that Rhaegar acted within the parameters of his character, then we have to assume that his decision was deliberate.  This is assuming a lot since we don't even know if Rhaegar and Lyanna were sleeping together.  Lyanna may have been pregnant already and Rhaegar simply rescued her.  I rather like the Brandon + Lyanna theory.  

Let's press on.  Here is an alternative explanation.  Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were planning to upset the Targaryens and take over the throne.  This we know from this passage from AGOT:

Quote

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said.  "And Joffrey . . . Joffrey . . ."

She finished for him. "...crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne.  And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned' mouth.  "Brandon. Yes, Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

It is just possible that Rhaegar wanted to seduce Lyanna to break the alliance between wolf and stag.  If so, then my opinion of him will become more positive.  My opinion of Lyanna would change if she had the same idea.  She ran away to prevent war between her family and the Targaryens.  She ran away to prevent her father's conspiracy from escalating to war.

I think Rickard Stark had been planning rebellion for decades.  Perhaps Jon Arryn was already in on it from this early on.  The naked woman that Bran saw in his dream could have been Rickard's mother.  Rickard had it out for the Targaryens from the start.  Rhaegar could have learned of this and decided to seduce Lyanna to prevent a rebellion.

This brings me back to the meaning of the dead direwolf.  Maybe Bloodraven sent the wolf to warn the Starks not to ally themselves again with the Baratheons.  The Stark-Baratheon rebellion took down the Targaryens and drove the kingdom to ruins as the consequence.  Wolf+Stag is bad news for the coming winter.  The Starks failed to recognize the warning and joined up with Robert again.  Another disaster.  Gendry the Stag could marry Arya the Wolf.  Another potential disaster in the making and the solution may be for the stag to stab the wolf in the heart, like what happened to mother direwolf.  Not with his horn helmet (which could be this time's version of the weapon against the Others!  Hey, an armor is just as important as a sword.  ) but with lightbringer.  

[The Twinslayer]

7 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

I think he did love Lyanna. Even more so, I think that Viserys also knew this and he told Daenerys.....
I have started my 4th re-read of the books this weekend, and was intrigued by the following.

Dany of course knows nothing about Westeros, Roberts Rebellion and everything related to it, except for all the stories she heard from her brother. How did she know that Rhaegar died for the women he loved (Lyanna). Especially since Viserys believed Rhaegar wasn't happy in his marriage with Elia
According to Rhaegar's younger brother, Viserys Targaryen, Rhaegar was simply not happy with his marriage. He believes that, if Rhaegar had been happy with Elia, he would not have needed Lyanna. Source

There are a number of clues that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love.  

For example, what is interesting about the passage you quoted is that we have confirmation that much of what Viserys told Dany in that quote is false.

Viserys told her about a "midnight flight to Dragonstone."  But later, Jaime tells us he saw Rhaella departing for Dragonstone in the morning.  

Viserys told her that the "Usurper's dogs, the Lords Lannister and Stark" sacked King's Landing.  But we learn later from Ned that he did not take part in the sack.  

So we should keep that in mind when reading that Viserys told her that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved.  Because Ned tells us later that Robert "avenged Lyanna at the Trident."

It is also worth remembering Theon's dream, where he sees Lyanna wearing her white Baratheon betrothal gown "spattered with gore."  That does not sound like love.

And Ned's memory of the moment all the smiles died.  He says Rhaegar named Lyanna the "queen of beauty."  Only one other person uses that term (rather than "queen of love and beauty"):  Littlefinger.  It is how he describes his weird and unwelcome obsession with Catelyn.  

And one of the few quotes we get from Lyanna is that she does not want to be with a man who won't keep to one bed, suggesting that tells you something bad about his character.  Why would she then run off with a married man?

And the comparisons between Arya and Lyanna are interesting.  Consider this:  Ned tells Arya that she will "marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."  Arya's response is:  "No... that's Sansa."  Arya (Lyanna) is not a romantic who would run off with a handsome prince.      

[The Twinslayer]

4 hours ago, KingMance said:

True, even at 8 he should have a general understanding of what's going on. Too bad Dany had a psycho idiot for a big brother. 

The problem with the starks and targs boils down to a huge misunderstanding and lack of communication. If Rhaegar and Lyanna just told their families "hey we're in love and really need to make TPTWP prophecy come true, be cool about this" everything would have been fine and dandy. We'd also have a really boring series to read.

It is very unlikely that Rickard would have broken the Robert/Lyanna betrothal just because Lyanna said she preferred Rhaegar.  For one thing, Robert (and Ned) would object.  For another, a betrothal is a solemn, binding vow.  When Joffrey broke off his betrothal to Sansa, he had to get the High Septon's permission.  

It is also unlikely that Aerys would agree.  He selected Elia for Rhaegar.

And it is unlikely that Rhaegar wanted anything long-term with Lyanna.  If he was chasing the prophecy, he was trying to create the third head of the dragon.  Once he had that third head, the relationship with Lyanna would end because he would want to avoid having more children.  The dragon has three heads.  Not four, or five, or more than that.  So the most Rhaegar was planning with Lyanna was something short.  

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

23 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

And it is unlikely that Rhaegar wanted anything long-term with Lyanna.  If he was chasing the prophecy, he was trying to create the third head of the dragon.  Once he had that third head, the relationship with Lyanna would end because he would want to avoid having more children.  The dragon has three heads.  Not four, or five, or more than that.  So the most Rhaegar was planning with Lyanna was something short.  

That doesn't make sense. Rhaegar was looking for another daughter, hence he knew for a fact that is 50-50 chance of needing to have another one.

[KingMance]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Er.... no. For one, we don't know if Lyanna told anyone or not. Second, why should their families believe the PTWP prophecy? Third, why should Aerys allow Rhaegar to be with the love of his life when he himself couldn't, and why should Rickard break his word to Robert, not to mention the whole issue with the acceptance of polygamy.

Fourth, sarcasm. 

[The Twinslayer]

51 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That doesn't make sense. Rhaegar was looking for another daughter, hence he knew for a fact that is 50-50 chance of needing to have another one.

Are you suggesting that he would have kept trying until Lyanna had a daughter and then stop sleeping with her?  In that case, it would be awkward to be one of Lyanna's sons, growing up being told that your older half-siblings from Elia plus your little sister are the three dragon heads and you are just extras.  

More likely, the birth of a son would lead Rhaegar to believe that the Rhaenys, Aegon and the new boy were the three dragon heads and it was time to stop sleeping with Lyanna lest they end up with a four or five headed dragon.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, The Twinslayer said:

Are you suggesting that he would have kept trying until Lyanna had a daughter and then stop sleeping with her?

Yes. He had married her to give birth to a daughter. Why stopping before having one?

2 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

In that case, it would be awkward to be one of Lyanna's sons, growing up being told that your older half-siblings from Elia plus your little sister are the three dragon heads and you are just extras.  

It doesn't seem like Rhaegar cared about anyone else than his obsession with prophecy.

 

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Valedina said:

Rhaegar naming the tower ->tower of  joy

The canon only says that Ned remembers that some unnamed person once told him that Rhaegar had named it that. 

Who was this person?  How did this person know about the ToJ?  Was this person correct?  We can't say...

14 hours ago, Valedina said:

Lyanna dying in a bed full of blue roses

The canon says no such thing.  It says that when she died, the rose petals that fell from her palm were dead and black.

14 hours ago, Valedina said:

Rhaegar wispered Lyannas name before he died (i think GRRM confired that the name was Lyannas )

No, he never did. 

Ran and Linda wrote this in the app, but it is not possible to find any such reference in GRRM's canon, in any GRRM interview, in any SSM, or in anything else that was ever attributed to GRRM.

Ran and Linda also wrote lots of things in the app we know, factually, to be wrong, such as Melisandre's place of origin.

[Lord Varys]

I think we can safely say that there was some attraction there, possibly even some sort of unhealthy romance at Harrenhal - keep in mind that Lyanna was only about 14-15 at that time, dying at 16 in 283 AC while Rhaegar was a married man his early twenties with a daughter of his own and a pregnant wife.

The best idea is that Rhaegar realized what Lyanna had done for Howland and he applauded her for her act of chivalric behavior. It is also very likely that they bonded over being trapped in stupid positions in life, Rhaegar in a marriage without love, Lyanna destined to marry a man she did not love, etc. and that they realized that they would have really liked each other had they met earlier.

And who knows? Perhaps they also exchanged kisses and had a lot of wolf-and-dragon-blood sex out there in those nights at Harrenhal.

However, whether Lyanna had any inclination to run away with Rhaegar and dishonor her family the way she did is not all that likely, and neither is the idea that she greatly enjoyed herself in the middle of nothing as the sex bunny of this man while the Realm (and her father and brother) literally burned around them.

Lyanna Stark was a dialed-up version of Arya. An Arya who was raised as a Stark princess, the only daughter of Lord Rickard Stark, never being forced to compete with an elder sister looking and behaving like Sansa. Just look how she, a girl of fourteen, spoke to those squires who brutalized Howland.

The idea that Lyanna Stark as we know her would actually deliberately choose to spend the war that nearly led to the destruction of her entire family in some crumbling watchtower in the Red Mountains is as far-fetched as you can possibly get.

Perhaps she really loved Rhaegar. But she might also have hated him. At least when he decided to save his father's ass and ride to war against Robert and Ned. A woman like Sansa might meekly allow her prince to treat her in such a way. But a woman resembling Arya would simply say 'Screw you!' and do whatever she wanted.

That is, unless she had three powerful gaolers wearing white cloaks.

[Maxxine]

16 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

I was also doubting if it is my 4^th or 5^th reread....

Well, of course his story is conflicted and most likely unreliable (I know I'm shooting holes in my own theory now). However, he was aware of the fact that Rhaegar and Elia weren't happily married. He also knew that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the Crown of blue winter-roses and the title QOLAB at the Tourney at Harrenhall. He also knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar disappeared, since that was common knowledge.

I wonder if Viserys knew more then just these facts and his suspicions on the unhappy marriage.....

I think few people know anything about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I doubt that Rhaegar confided in his eight year old brother who allegedly was already a little crazy. I think Viserys tells the story that way because he wants to believe the best in Rhaegar. It's the same Barristan and JonCon tell the story that way. It ruins the legend of Rhaegar if he really kidnapped and raped some girl. Similarly, Robert says he kidnapped and raped her because it ruin his narrative that Rhaegar was this terrible person if Rhaegar and Lyanna fell and love and ran off together. It would also be a blow to his ego. I think the most telling thing about the Rhaegar-Lyanna is Ned's inner thoughts. If the relationship was at either one of those extremes I think we would've gotten more from Ned.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I doubt that Rhaegar confided in his eight year old brother who allegedly was already a little crazy.

You're right but Rhaegar did spend some time in KL and would have answered certain questions. He had a good relationship with Rhaella, who in turn would have passed some version to Viserys - undoubtedly polished but not necessarily untrue. There would definitely be a talk with Aerys, as well, and since Aerys in his paranoia always had a KG with him, Barristan might have been present, though this version has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Quote

 I think the most telling thing about the Rhaegar-Lyanna is Ned's inner thoughts. If the relationship was at either one of those extremes I think we would've gotten more from Ned.

Not really, because if GRRM let know that R+L were in love, people would easily connect the dots and we would have no Jon mystery. From what little Ned lets on, it wasn't rape because his thoughts are not consistent with rape scenario. The love angle has slowly been seeping from multiple sources including GRRM himself; a certain level of doubt might be maintained about Lyanna's feelings but she did die holding roses, and the single person ever giving her roses in the whole series was Rhaegar.