KarlDanski

Evil Daenerys?

35 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think that's where the plot is heading. After Tyrion's pep talk, YG is in the mindset that he could gain power without Dany's help. A few easy victories later, he'll decide he won't even need Dany to secure his place on the throne, just an alliance from Dorne. 

Where my opinions diverge is in the events that follow. I think Aegon will be able to gather a lot of support, but without a marriage to Dany, people will continue to doubt his legitimacy. We've already seen a hint of this in the the ADWD epilogue. He'll likely not have unanimous support, and Dany won't be friendless. I won't make predictions on who'll be on whose side, though. There's too many unknowns - the Tyrells, for example.

Point taken, only time will tell I guess. I do find it curious Willas Tyrell is still unwed, could the Tyrells be keeping him as a back up plan to TRY to wed him to Dany if she gets to Westeros? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Ok, yes. Sacking is done by armies to make them enemies submit to them. But what would she gain by sacking Western Essos? Other than Volantis which would get a slave revolt and then some dragonfire why she has to sack Myr or Tyrosh? For Pentos, I don't think she will sack it. If she sacked Pentos just because she hates Illyrio she becomes straight up villain which wouldn't be the case. Free cities would pay loads and loads of tributes to save their asses if she could unite the Dothraki. I don't think any sacking will be involved. Dany is no khal to conform to Dothraki ways. 

Maybe they'll submit without a fight, in which case, there would be no need for a sack.

But, I can imagine that there'll be some resistance to begin with.  Even if capital cities surrender on terms, lesser cities (eg Selhorys) might be sacked to break resistance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aegon was able to subdue the entire seven kingdoms (except dorne but they didn't last long) with three dragons. The realm has been at constant war  and the idea of a targeyean coming in on a dragon would make everyone back down except the most stubborn nobles. She has probably at least 7,000 unsullied left and I think she will have an entire dothraki army (can't remember what their groups are called). They will see her riding that dragon and kneel to that strength. I do think she has some problems but not madness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2017 at 2:03 AM, KarlDanski said:

Does anyone think that Daenerys is going to end up becoming evil or "mad" by the end of the story? She's already shown mad king like traits in the story, and doesn't even know the true story about what Rhaegar, Mad King, and what Robert did. She plans on invading a war torn Seven Kingdoms with dragons, sellsword companies, freed slaves, Dothraki (TV show), Ironborn, and a disgraced knight (Poor Barristan). I'm not saying she's evil, but the forces she's using sounds like she'll be opposed by literally everyone, it sounds like she's leading a bunch of untrustworthy mercenaries, slaves who knew no other life, horse riding rapist warriors, and ship sailing rapist warriors. I don't know, but this makes me dislike her a little more.

I don't think she will go mad.  Somebody posted an excellent topic last week on this.  I suggest you check out that thread about "Targaryen madness is an exaggeration".  An article that I wholeheartedly agree with.

The fact that she brought freedom to millions of former slaves contradicts any idea that she is evil.  The liberation of the slaves is the single greatest act of kindness and mercy in the story.  No one has ever done that much good that we know of.  Using dragons to take back what rightfully belongs to you is no different than if the Starks were to use soldiers to take back Winterfell.  She has just as much right to take back what belongs to her than the Starks and the Tullys do have to take back River run and Winterfell.

I sincerely doubt she will be opposed by the majority.  The people are crying out for a different leadership and a return of stability.  The wolves, the stag, and the lions have made a mess of things.  The Targaryens were not perfect but they were better than the alternatives.  Many houses remain loyal to the dragons, which is why Robert is referred to as "usurper" behind his back.  All she need do is show up and many will flock to her banner out of loyalty and a desire for change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The Targaryens were not perfect but they were better than the alternatives.  Many houses remain loyal to the dragons, which is why Robert is referred to as "usurper" behind his back.  All she need do is show up and many will flock to her banner out of loyalty and a desire for change.

Is that you Viserys? (sorry, but I think there's more to it then just showing up)

I agree with you that there are quite a lot of houses that were loyal to the Dragons during Roberts Rebellion. However, Robert was able to persuade a lot of those houses to support him, by not taking their lands and allowing them to remain in the same position of power that they were in previously.

The Targaryens ruled for almost 300 years by force (read: Dragon air superiority). When the Dragons became extinct, they became unable to enforce their vision of how Westeros should be ruled.
There were no reasons left for the major houses to keep in line with the Targaryens, these houses were ruling their own lands, and only answering to the Targaryens when needed (for example: Blackfyre rebellions).
Egg tried reforming, but these reforms were undone when he died. Egg tried bonding the major houses via marriage to the Targaryens, but failed in all but 1 attempt (Which is the main reason that Robert Baratheon was named king after the rebellion, he had bloodties to the Targaryens).
Then, a mad king starts burning the LP and his heir, and wants to do the same to some other men. Of course this will spark anger and cause a rebellion.

During the rebellion, the Stormlands, Vale and the North were teamed up instantly. Most of their bannerman followed suit. The Riverlands joined in because of a double wedding, but some Riverlands bannerman stayed true to the Targaryens (because they could not defend themselves from a Targ invasion). When things started to fall apart for the Targaryens, the Westernlands also joined in. Heck, the Lord paramounts daughter became the queen.

If we start counting, we can be sure that 5 major houses out of the 7 kingdoms supported Robert Baratheon the Usurper. We know that Dorne doesn't support him, but they do not openly defy him (yet). The reach was also a Targaryen supporter, but by now, they are clearly on team Baratheon/Lannister with one of their daughters being married to Tommen.
Crownlands have been conquered, which would only leave the Iron Islands, who never really followed suit and rebelled on a regular basis, only to get smacked down again.

Now I wonder, why would a Targaryen be welcomed back and people flock to her out of loyalty? The major houses have nothing to gain by flocking to her side (save the Martells). The major houses are all supported by their largest bannerman, which only leaves some seriously lesser houses, that can easily be stopped by the major houses and their loyalist bannerman.

No, any Targaryen coming to Westeros at this point in (BOOK) time will surely not be welcomed with open arms by any other then the Martells and they would have to fight their way back to the throne. When you're coming to Westeros with dragons, you will have some serious advantage, but Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell will most definitely put up a fight, because they would want to remain in the seat of power.

Edited by Ser Walter of AShwood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Is that you Viserys? (sorry, but I think there's more to it then just showing up)

I agree with you that there are quite a lot of houses that were loyal to the Dragons during Roberts Rebellion. However, Robert was able to persuade a lot of those houses to support him, by not taking their lands and allowing them to remain in the same position of power that they were in previously.

The Targaryens ruled for almost 300 years by force (read: Dragon air superiority). When the Dragons became extinct, they became unable to enforce their vision of how Westeros should be ruled.
There were no reasons left for the major houses to keep in line with the Targaryens, these houses were ruling their own lands, and only answering to the Targaryens when needed (for example: Blackfyre rebellions).
Egg tried reforming, but these reforms were undone when he died. Egg tried bonding the major houses via marriage to the Targaryens, but failed in all but 1 attempt (Which is the main reason that Robert Baratheon was named king after the rebellion, he had bloodties to the Targaryens).
Then, a mad king starts burning the LP and his heir, and wants to do the same to some other men. Of course this will spark anger and cause a rebellion.

During the rebellion, the Stormlands, Vale and the North were teamed up instantly. Most of their bannerman followed suit. The Riverlands joined in because of a double wedding, but some Riverlands bannerman stayed true to the Targaryens (because they could not defend themselves from a Targ invasion). When things started to fall apart for the Targaryens, the Westernlands also joined in. Heck, the Lord paramounts daughter became the queen.

If we start counting, we can be sure that 5 major houses out of the 7 kingdoms supported Robert Baratheon the Usurper. We know that Dorne doesn't support him, but they do not openly defy him (yet). The reach was also a Targaryen supporter, but by now, they are clearly on team Baratheon/Lannister with one of their daughters being married to Tommen.
Crownlands have been conquered, which would only leave the Iron Islands, who never really followed suit and rebelled on a regular basis, only to get smacked down again.

Now I wonder, why would a Targaryen be welcomed back and people flock to her out of loyalty? The major houses have nothing to gain by flocking to her side (save the Martells). The major houses are all supported by their largest bannerman, which only leaves some seriously lesser houses, that can easily be stopped by the major houses and their loyalist bannerman.

No, any Targaryen coming to Westeros at this point in (BOOK) time will surely not be welcomed with open arms by any other then the Martells and they would have to fight their way back to the throne. When you're coming to Westeros with dragons, you will have some serious advantage, but Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell will most definitely put up a fight, because they would want to remain in the seat of power.

Because the houses aren't the same at the end of the ADWD. Baratheon/Lannister reign is in its deathbed. The remaining Baratheons could not unite people behind them. A Targaryen has more chance than Stannis. The moment Tommen dies whatever status quo left in KL will end resulting in chaos. The Lannisters are hated almost by everyone. Cersei cannot hold power forever. Lannister-Tyrell alliance would end the moment Tommen dies which I think the Martells will take care. The Riverlands is in disarray and disunited and their lords are waiting to jump from the sinking ship of Lannisters. The North will remain independent for most part of the next book. Only major factor is the Vale. But there are chances that they would support either Aegon or Daenerys. Dorne will always support the Targaryens one or the other.

Yes the books are in a state that the dragons(black or red) will be welcomed more than they would have hoped. Westeros isn't united anymore. Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell alliance is almost non-existent. Aegon has already secured victories along Stormlands and there will be the friends in the reach who would jump to his ship. Martells will be set against Daenerys but I think Daynes and Yronwoods would back her. The Tyrells will be forced to choose and they will never choose the Lannisters or Aegon/Martells which makes me think they will be Dany's allies in the second dance. There is a chance even Jaime would support any of the Targaryens. So there is almost no chance that there will be any kind of united opposition to the Targaryens. Westeros was never ripe for retaking by Targaryens than now.

 

Edited by khal drogon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ser Walter,

  1. All rulers, from Argilac, Hoare, the Starks, Robert, the Targaryens, they all maintained order by force.  That is how a kingdom like that is managed and ruled.  While it may not be up to today's standards of democracy, it worked.  The Targaryens were better than what they replaced and better than what came after.  
  2. Robert won over some of them but there are secret Targaryen loyalist who would like a return of the dragons.  Doran and Varys for a start.  The small folk probably do.  I think the Tyrells might surprise you.  Margery is the sitting queen but they are not loyal to the Lannisters.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Point taken, only time will tell I guess. I do find it curious Willas Tyrell is still unwed, could the Tyrells be keeping him as a back up plan to TRY to wed him to Dany if she gets to Westeros? 

That is what the Tyrells would be pushed to do. I sincerely wish Dany marries Willas. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Ser Walter,

  1. All rulers, from Argilac, Hoare, the Starks, Robert, the Targaryens, they all maintained order by force.  That is how a kingdom like that is managed and ruled.  While it may not be up to today's standards of democracy, it worked.  The Targaryens were better than what they replaced and better than what came after.  
  2. Robert won over some of them but there are secret Targaryen loyalist who would like a return of the dragons.  Doran and Varys for a start.  The small folk probably do.  I think the Tyrells might surprise you.  Margery is the sitting queen but they are not loyal to the Lannisters.  

Rulers rule by force, but also by making alliances (Robert excelled in that). And of course there are plenty of secret Targ loyalists, but the current state in the books is that Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell are in a (fragile) alliance, as long as Cercei keept Tommen alive, they will stay at their side, especially if the trial is done and Margeary isn't proven guilty.

I do agree with you that, as soon as Tommen dies, and Margaery is still alive, the Tyrells might even swing towards the stormlands.

Marg&Aegon and Willas&Dany? That would be an odd swing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, khal drogon said:

That is what the Tyrells would be pushed to do. I sincerely wish Dany marries Willas. 

 

Willas Tyrell would definitely be a top option for her. The Reach armies and food supplies during winter no less would be a huge boon for Daenerys. Especially If (f)Aegon marries Arianne and is somehow able to take the Throne it does make the most sense. I hope we learn more about Willas in the next book and he finally makes an appearance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Point taken, only time will tell I guess. I do find it curious Willas Tyrell is still unwed, could the Tyrells be keeping him as a back up plan to TRY to wed him to Dany if she gets to Westeros? 

Yes! Willas has peaked my curiosity too. I mean, GRRM could kill him off in the upcoming war(s), but that seems like such a waste.

It's hard to predict which way the Tyrells will go because we don't know when Dany will finally drag her ass to Westeros. It would be a lot harder to get them (or anyone) if Aegon has already won the throne by the time she arrives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yes! Willas has peaked my curiosity too. I mean, GRRM could kill him off in the upcoming war(s), but that seems like such a waste.

It's hard to predict which way the Tyrells will go because we don't know when Dany will finally drag her ass to Westeros. It would be a lot harder to get them (or anyone) if Aegon has already won the throne by the time she arrives.

Yeah we need some sort of Willas Tyrell appearance whether it's his POV or otherwise. Perhaps with the Iron Born raiding the Reach we'll see him in the next book? I mean he's the heir to Highgarden and it's acting lord I would presume making him one of the most important people in Westeros. I'd feel a bit disappointed if he's killed off page with him never making an appearance. Even with a crippled leg he should be married by now which leads me to believe the Tyrells might be keeping him single in case Dany comes to Westeros with dragons and a huge army at her back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

She has just as much right to take back what belongs to her than the Starks and the Tullys do have to take back River run and Winterfell.

this makes as much sense as me going to my deceased grandfather's old house and shouting at the current residents "This Is Mine!!!! also, where is the bathroom? I don't know because I've never been here in my life." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yeah we need some sort of Willas Tyrell appearance whether it's his POV or otherwise. Perhaps with the Iron Born raiding the Reach we'll see him in the next book? I mean he's the heir to Highgarden and it's acting lord I would presume making him one of the most important people in Westeros. I'd feel a bit disappointed if he's killed off page with him never making an appearance. Even with a crippled leg he should be married by now which leads me to believe the Tyrells might be keeping him single in case Dany comes to Westeros with dragons and a huge army at her back.

I am looking forward to seeing how Willas and Garlan deal with Euron and the Ironborn invasion of the Reach. Also the Golden Company's "friends in the Reach."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Aegon was able to subdue the entire seven kingdoms (except dorne but they didn't last long) with three dragons. The realm has been at constant war  and the idea of a targeyean coming in on a dragon would make everyone back down except the most stubborn nobles. She has probably at least 7,000 unsullied left and I think she will have an entire dothraki army (can't remember what their groups are called). They will see her riding that dragon and kneel to that strength. I do think she has some problems but not madness.

Dorne did last long... they were only brought into the fold via marriage 188 years after Aegon's Conquest. That's quite a long time when defending against medieval weapons of mass destruction. I'm not even a fan of Dorne but people sell them short a lot.

 

19 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Ser Walter,

  1. All rulers, from Argilac, Hoare, the Starks, Robert, the Targaryens, they all maintained order by force.  That is how a kingdom like that is managed and ruled.  While it may not be up to today's standards of democracy, it worked.  The Targaryens were better than what they replaced and better than what came after.  
  2. Robert won over some of them but there are secret Targaryen loyalist who would like a return of the dragons.  Doran and Varys for a start.  The small folk probably do.  I think the Tyrells might surprise you.  Margery is the sitting queen but they are not loyal to the Lannisters.  
  1. I agree that people are placing modern values on a medieval story. I think they do the same regarding slavery and assuming freeing slaves automatically makes Daenerys a good person. That's a modern value from people in a societies that have systems in place to support and elevate the destitute and underprivileged.
    But regarding Targaryens being better rulers, I think you're generalizing way too much for my taste. They had more time as a family to produce an (arguably) balanced assortment of good and bad rulers. Not to mention the family inbreeding meant that they didn't have to deal with the same number of factionalism that comes when your ruler actually has to share power with other families. Also, let's not forget about the Dance of Dragons, which ripped the country apart because of squabbling between two Targaryens. It was, at minimum, just as bad as the mess the Lannisters have made. 
  2. And some people remember that Aegon decided he wanted to subjugate all their ancestors just because he could. Many people will think exactly that when they see Daenerys swoop in on dragons... and isn't that exactly what she's doing? She intends to conquer a land with her dragons because people "took" it from her via the same means her family gained it to begin with. That kind of entitlement and selfishness ranks pretty on my list of "not good" qualities in a person.
    21 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

    I don't think she will go mad.  Somebody posted an excellent topic last week on this.  I suggest you check out that thread about "Targaryen madness is an exaggeration".  An article that I wholeheartedly agree with.

    The fact that she brought freedom to millions of former slaves contradicts any idea that she is evil.  The liberation of the slaves is the single greatest act of kindness and mercy in the story.  No one has ever done that much good that we know of.  Using dragons to take back what rightfully belongs to you is no different than if the Starks were to use soldiers to take back Winterfell.  She has just as much right to take back what belongs to her than the Starks and the Tullys do have to take back River run and Winterfell.

    I sincerely doubt she will be opposed by the majority.  The people are crying out for a different leadership and a return of stability.  The wolves, the stag, and the lions have made a mess of things.  The Targaryens were not perfect but they were better than the alternatives.  Many houses remain loyal to the dragons, which is why Robert is referred to as "usurper" behind his back.  All she need do is show up and many will flock to her banner out of loyalty and a desire for change.

    In addition to what I have said above, I think many people are forgetting about terrible things Targaryens have done. Dragons are not known for making the realm feel at ease. They'll brace themselves for when their villages or holdfasts become the next battleground for a Targaryen feud or squabble.

    Her PR in the east has worked well (especially with the enslaved) due to the prevalence of a religion that focuses on fire and messianism. There is no strong religious perspective to view her in a positive light in Westeros. Her actions can be brutal, but so are the actions of many of the people she has encountered and acted against in the east. When Westeros hears of these actions during her conquest, they won't have the privilege of being able to interpret them in context like we do. Worst yet, she may not have the wisdom to not employ these same methods on the lords of Westeros. They can easily name her mad if she tries to nail them to crosses or feigns a bargain in order to steal by force. She can very well become a monster in their eyes.

Edited by Traverys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now